Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings
  4. osu!mania

Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

posted
Total Posts
635
show more
Envisionise
40 posts
Joined June 2013
Envisionise

October Scream wrote:

What if we had something like a MMTT? (Mania Map Testing Team)

Since most mania maps have their multiple difficulties and some being harder than the highest star rating in there (ex. Wotamin-Gigantic O.T.N. Entozer's Another > L.I.A.'s Insane difficulty wise), the team would test a map before it is qualified or approved and they send in their difficulty ratings? I think this would help with the mania specific maps a lot.
We have discussed this earlier in the thread (page 7), but Tom wants to try create an algorithm first. It would be easier it there was an algorithm, but a team dedicated to judging the difficulties of maps would also be very accurate.
Edit: typos
Last edited by Envisionise , edited 1 time in total.
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]
Good luck with an algorithm, but mania is probably one of the hardest modes to accurately calculate with a single unchanging formula, as there is simply too many variations possible with long notes and short notes in 7 keys.

MMTT would be a perfect (if not essential) way of accurately calculating a map's actual difficulty. The current star rankings aren't doing that much, and self imposed difficulty names such as [ADV, EXH, INF], [EZ, NM, HD, MX, EX, SC, SHD] or arbitrary levels such as XXX's Lvl 36 can often vary between one mapper and another. There are so many maps that are far beyond the max star rating (examples include SHD maps such as Ende, Mephisto, Shuffle Heaven, Big Money, Days of Dash or straight-up hard maps such as Imperishable Night 2006, or Sweet Rain [Another (somehow mapped tagged as "Normal" difficulty]).

And just out of curiosity, will there be a temporary ranking released any time soon?
takumi9613
9 posts
Joined January 2014
takumi9613

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please. :)


I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

  1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
  2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
  3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
  4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
@takumi9613, why quote what we all can read at the front of the thread....?
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
If it counts in auto converts it should has something in it about the sliders. In osu standard maps the circle to slider rate is often 1:2 or so for sliders and this goes pretty bad in mania. Even if it is an autoconvert you are playing it way relaxing with those high amount of sliders. If you pay attention to it while playing an autoconvert you will notice that most of the time your hands are resting and your inputs are actually very slow and there is not much you are actually doing, even if the song sounds super fast or difficult or so. You can play extremely fast songs that are difficult in standard mode alot easier. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38316. That song is 250 bpm but most of the time what you are doing, is just holding down the sliders which isnt hard and prepare for the occassional burst of notes and then go back to holding sliders. Who is afraid of the big black is also a good example of how auto convert can turn a very difficult beatmap to something so simple.
Most older beatmaps, or beatmaps with fewer slider count translate into more diffcult beatmaps. If there are few sliders the autoconvert will create more notes and you have to "play more" compared to a autoconvert with alot of sliders.
Examples:

Those autoconverts convert into maps with alot of notes
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/43960 Extra diff
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/103281 Collab diff
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 Another diff
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 Extra diff

Also no idea if this is related but auto convert also likes to scramble the notes for streams under 160 bpm or so all over your keys and from 160~200ish bpm streams will often turn out as a simple staircase. On even higher bpms i think auto convert starts scrambling it again. Well not sure about the actual BPM numbers there but its just - lower BPM, scrambled streams - hgher BPM staircase. I think one find the other easier but i think a simple left right motion is easier to play than multiple notes at many different keys
PhantomPilot
2 posts
Joined October 2012
PhantomPilot

Hanyuu wrote:

If it counts in auto converts it should has something in it about the sliders.
Are you arguing to change the way autoconverts are generated? They'll be bad no matter how they're converted. The extra dimension of having to aim with the cursor is lost when converting to mania so it's essentially trying to expand a 1 key game into a 4-7 key game and it simply doesn't work well.

In case I missed the point entirely: the ranking algorithm should already into account the low strain and note density of slider maps so they shouldn't be worth much anyway.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Wat
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/259067&m=3

would be interesting to see what diff the system sets this map as
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial list for osu!mania ready now. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Get the feedback going. ;)
Zealtron
28 posts
Joined July 2009
Zealtron
Some quick feedback on things I'm seeing right off the bat. I'm seeing a lot more lower key maps being put at a higher difficulty than higher key maps, even though they're quite a bit easier.
ex. Akasha's 8k FEVER is lower than Little Star 4k INF.
unfinished's 4k Accel is 8 higher than its 7k Burst.

Another issue is how you're handling the difficulty for long notes (or maybe HP Drain/OD). Wintersun 7k Winter is definitely a lot lower than it should be.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Zealtron wrote:

Some quick feedback on things I'm seeing right off the bat. I'm seeing a lot more lower key maps being put at a higher difficulty than higher key maps, even though they're quite a bit easier.
ex. Akasha's 8k FEVER is lower than Little Star 4k INF.
unfinished's 4k Accel is 8 higher than its 7k Burst.

Another issue is how you're handling the difficulty for long notes (or maybe HP Drain/OD). Wintersun 7k Winter is definitely a lot lower than it should be.
Lower key maps should be worth a lot less now. Also there was a bug with holds that made them considered pretty much not at all. This has been fixed, too.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Re-linking Tom's link since this is the first post in the page: http://tinyurl.com/q3osedx

-

For science, please add these autoconverts to the sample pool for the algorithm:

[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125702 SHK - Identity Part 4 [Insane]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/148009 Cuvelia - Tenkuu no Yoake [Another]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480 Memme - Extreme Fantasy [ExtrA]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 44teru-k - Yami ~ Shoujo no Yume , Kyomu no Sekai ~ [Extra]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 D.J.Amuro - F [Another]]

-

Map-specific feedback/pointers from initial checkthrough:

polygon [SHD] - Underrated. Jacks inside chords/LN patterns.
Gigantic O.T.N [Entozer's Another] - Underrated. dunno why.
Gigantic O.T.N [L i a's Mania] - Overrated. citation needed. I know this map is much harder to play well than it is to play mediocrely.
G59 [Level 36] - Underrated. citation needed.
Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl [Hard] - Underrated. that ending...
Zoetrope (TV Size) [RC's 8K SC] - Not sure if underrated or I just suck at 8K
Hesitation Snow (Short Ver.) [8K Another] - definitely underrated but I also suck at 8K
Wintersun (Bobby D'Ambrosio Mix) [7K Winter] - underrated...? citation needed. density+LNstreams
Insane Techniques [5K Black Another] - underrated, has hard jacks in the end
Maware! Setsugekka (TV Size) [PROGUY's 6K MX] - underrated.
Crack traxxxx [4K EXH] - overrated
VALLIS-NERIA [LeiN-'s EXH] - overrated
Akasha [8K Hard] - underrated. even with me not being all that good in 7K+1 this map deserves way more than it gets.
Senretsu no ryu [Hard] - overrated

-

Overall after the hotfix this algorithm is already starting to look real nice. Jacks needs to be handled better, other than this there's some unclear factors that would need tuning.
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy
I looked at the document and it looked pretty accurate overall (I can't tell for harder maps), but I found something which I find weird.

For the song Igorrr - Unpleasant Sonata, the Insane converted map is considered the same level as [Shi-Ra]'s Hell [SC] mania chart. I played the Insane chart in case it was really as hard as the mania chart and it was very easy to pass compared to Shi-Ra's one, which contains a couple of hard LN parts (maybe not that hard but at least ten times as hard as those in the converted map) and has a very fast ending wich can be failed if you get out of sync too much.

I'm not an expert for judging maps but I'm convinced that if converted maps are worth less than real mania charts, the Insane converted map should not be considered the same level as the hardest mania difficulty.

I did not search for other examples and I have no idea what might cause this unless chords are worth many points, because there are much more (but not many) chords in the converted map than in the mania chart.

Apart from that, I'm very pleased to see some good progress and I can't wait for a new pp system to be implemented :)
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Passing autoconverts is always easier than passing mania charts due to the nature of drain setting difference between the two modes and the way it transitions on the autoconvert. You should compare how hard are those maps to play correctly and not to spam through and pass (ask yourself how hard would it be for you to S it).
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
  1. croix (roxas mx) underrated, it starts getting quite fast near the end which makes it slightly harder and makes me lose a bunch of acc.
  2. crack traxxxx 7k inf overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  3. game brain (lunatic) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  4. wintersun (bobby dambrosio) strongly underrated, long notes are really punishing + slowjam makes it slightly harder.
  5. piano concerto no.1 (lvl 31) overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  6. G59 (lvl 36) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  7. Gigantic O.T.N (Lia's Mania) overrated, It has same density than the diff by entozer, but this map uses more chords and minibreaks which make it require less speed, stamina and acc. On top of that, there's a lot of symmetrical patterns which make it slightly easier as well.
  8. chain destruction (siilento remix) overrated, I lose a bunch of acc on the end, but it's not enough to be that highly diff judged.
  9. smoooooch 7K SC overrated, only reason it's hard is because of the SVs which are memorizable. Should be ignored.
  10. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  11. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.

can't judge any of the higher diffs. can't judge any of the lower diffs. Also can't judge half the maps since I didn't play them yet. (I mostly play BMS/o2jam convs)
What I can tell is that the system seems to be non-linear.
I mean maps around 20-30 seem to be far more spread out in skill level than 40-50.
It also seems to be inconsistent, it doesn't follow a smooth exponential curve since some lower levels seem to be closer together again.
This might be irrelevant, and it might not be, you'll know that better than me. I'm just saying.

It's quite a bit rough around the edges but it doesn't seem too bad for a first try though. Good job so far ^^

On a side note: you could use aqo's 'osu!mania maps sorted by difficulity' thread as well. I don't know about the lower diffs, but the lvl 7-11 maps are sorted pretty well, I'd say it has about a 1 level error margin. do note that there is a huge gap between 11 and 12 though.
Spy
2,538 posts
Joined November 2011
Spy




- Levels are different too much.



- 153 is easier than 151,152 too much,shouldn't put here.



- 167 is harder than 166 too much.
richardfeder
1,056 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder
Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.

A couple of opinions:

In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.

Xcrypt wrote:

  1. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  2. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper


Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.

Good Job!
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]
Just out of curiosity, why does the system count the easier map as my highest PP yielding map?


From my userpage, it says the 4K map is my one of my highest maps when in fact, I did a lot better in a higher difficulty.


Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Andrew Chow wrote:

Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]

Tom94 wrote:

Andrew Chow wrote:

Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.
I've been to this page at least 30 times and I've read the opening post quite a few times.

When you said the pp system was not functional I thought you meant that the PP calculations were not altered yet, not that the percentage accuracy was not functional. My bad anyways.
Envisionise
40 posts
Joined June 2013
Envisionise
First of all, wow this list is looking pretty nice. Goob job Tom!

Here are a couple of inconsistencies I found

41 - Passionate 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/312638
Underrated, the layered long notes and the sv change is much harder for this level
36 - Freedom Dive 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/208353
Underrated, this is very very hard overall.
44 - Shining collection, Erox's Shining time - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/296010
Slightly overrated imo, not many layered long notes or any of the crazier patterns.
25 - Ascension to Heaven (LV. 44) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279472
Quite overrated, this has raining notes but no layered long notes, is much easier than long note overlap heavy songs
123 - Days of Dash Shi-Ra x Rumi SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
To me, very underrated. Long notes are hard.

These are a few that aren't listed by the others that I believe that are slightly off. Thanks for the read!
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
What you said about Ascension to Heaven and Days of Dash is pretty subjective, I know a few people having a harder time with density maps than with LNs heavy maps.
blood4_old
2 posts
Joined July 2011
blood4_old

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please. :)


I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

  1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
  2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
  3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
  4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial difficulty list for osu!mania ready. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Get the feedback going. ;)
Fee_old_1
10 posts
Joined August 2013
Fee_old_1
Is there an estimated completion time?
17VA
1,007 posts
Joined September 2012
17VA
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/254644

unfinished lv 69 - underrated. longnotes in lastphase are really insane.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840

native faith 1K master? - why 1K

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/338759

koi yomi zakura - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198272

god knows insane + - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/329213

sister's noise lvl 42 - underrated. this should placed in 75 ~ 77

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/219360

utakata, ai no mahoroba - this is super - overrated. it's very easy to fc as ChaiN De/structioN (siilento's solid remix) another

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370953

native faith 8K Lunatic - this is super - underrated. why this et chart is placed on #107?

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370882

hesitation snow 8K Another - super underrated. this is harder than Imperishable Night 2006 7K insane diff...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/257529

smooooch 7K SC - super overrated. this is map is very easy... why this is placed on #88...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/298849

future gazer 7K SC - underrated... I think this map should be placed on around #117

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507

DAYS of DASH shira x rumi SHD - underrated. this is harder than gigantic o.t.n entozer's mania.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/278050

Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) lvl 26 - overrated.
Secretpipe
3,316 posts
Joined December 2012
Secretpipe
Finally !
Wishing the best for that new system xD
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Aqo wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Fixed already. Further algorithm changes regarding score scaling incoming soon.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
Since the update I am horribly lagging. Its really unplayable
Am I the only one?
Last edited by Xenlon , edited 1 time in total.
AekaShiraki
144 posts
Joined May 2013
AekaShiraki
no..
me too
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom 8-)
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Xcrypt wrote:

I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom 8-)
The lags have nothing to do with pp updates. And thanks. ^^
BSHFT BADT GMBH
BSHFT BADT GMBH
Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
I forgot to leave feedback:

I think its really unstable right now,because strange/easy converted maps gives you more pp then the mania-diffs
For example the Top Ranks from a friend of mine;His best maps are converted 7k maps he played several months ago with the mod 4k

I suggest the ranking from before(This from for example yesterday :D ) IF you dont get with Half-time nearly the same amount of pp then without Half-Time.
The only problem I meen was that the amount of pp you may get depends on the accuracy (Excuse me, if this is not true but it makes the apparent)

But I am still confused cause of the laggs D:
Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
Agreed. I was wondering how two of those ended up in my BP. Somehow, Extreme Fantasy 4K 99% is worth more than my Imperishable Night A rank too :o
REDYUMiKA
485 posts
Joined August 2013
REDYUMiKA

richardfeder wrote:

Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.

A couple of opinions:

In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.

Xcrypt wrote:

  1. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  2. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper


Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.

Good Job!
I agree with this, that's reasonable opinion.
To combine each key, and then be reflected in overall pp system would make unfair rankings again.
Some people who should be praised truely in low-key mania will lose an opportunity.
Nice thread, Thank you. ;)
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Some harsh words, but after I checked the difficulty list, I'm not totally sure about the credibility of the list - It's even misleading in a few cases, especially in the top part, with overrate and underrate which even conflict with experience people stacked in the BMS/O2 community for years.
Some examples include Messier 333 vs Imperishable Night 2006 vs STAR OF AND... , Gigantic O.T.N vs Polygon vs Big Money vs Rhythmical Planet vs Akasha(ignore's ver) and more.
Though osu!mania is osu!mania and it's not necessary that we follow them at all (they have errors too), but they do provide good reference. (Edit: And this is also player feedback because they testplay-ed them for years.)

Since this list is not finalized, I suggest my original point - Let's make the diff calculation FUN and EASY TO USE.

I believe just like what you have done in TP, there are always weighted beatmaps, that most people think that's "overrated" or "underrated".
However, does that mean , when 20 players go here to say that a map is underrated, the map is truly underrated?
In many case, some parameters are just compromise of people who have discussed stuff here. Too many players, whether high ranked or not, are not possible, or don't want to discuss here (You know this is an English-only talk, and I know too many Chinese who can't participate in because they can't write in English well).

So what I suggest is: We should not focus on criticizing that "Oh a map is underrated I lose PP", but respect the fact that some maps are overrated, that they provide important fact that it's the superpower we should decided to promote (e.g. super quick jackhammer, nearly impossible sliders/ SV changes, etc) . To find these "weighted" maps is fun, isn't it? It's a pretty good idea to help with Tom to find that "What superpower has not been picked out"!

When I talked about "easy to use", I'm curious about the speed of the algorithm. Is it quick enough that it uses only a few seconds to calculate 30k maps? (I think dev had give up that once in the past when they want to improve SD)

Edit: some text arrangement.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
DT shouldn't count as extra pp if vision mods, HR, or RD don't give extra pp.

The end.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
A better play in DT with a slightly lower score is never considered when a slightly higher scored normal play exists since score isn't multiplied when using DT.

So... that is kind of a problem.
arcwinolivirus
1,588 posts
Joined October 2012
arcwinolivirus
Most mania players said in #osumania that DT has bug. So I tried to play a mania map song that I dont have records yet in DT mod.

finished playing DT and I got low score but gained 45 PP. Then I thought I can beat it without DT and Yes I beat it with higher score. Instead of getting higher PP, my PP reduced to 45 returning to my current PP I got before playing the map.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
185 / 635