Tom94 did a miracle with std pp, I feel safe trusting him to do mania pp too.
The points every "pro-mania-spec players" wanted to show are all grouped into Drace's post (page 6).Chocobubba wrote:
From what I can tell, osu! does a pretty bang up job on converting.
No it does not. ACs served as temporary playable for when o!m first came out, like a preview or something like that.
But excluding that, the ranking system isn't meant to judge what songs are "valid" or not, that's what a song being approved/ranked does.
You wouldn't let football players play on an invalid field full of holes especially in a competitive environment now would you ?
The ranking system is designed to determine the skill level of a player comparable to his/her fellow players. It simply wouldn't make since for a kick ass player to have all of their time thrown down the drain from playing auto-converts and have a rank far worse than some elitist that only plays !mania maps, but can only play at about the same skill level as a baboon sitting on the keyboard!
Kick ass players who score very high scores on ACs usually plays mania-spec maps as well. Don't confuse elitist players with players who play the game mode how it is supposed to be played.
Scale them slightly? Sure, I can understand that. Invalidate them entirely? Perish the thought, it's asinine and rather unfair.
There are 1001 reasons for which we should totally eliminate them from the mania ranking system. Every counter-arguments I've read so far are half-assed.
When I am ready to present some difficulty values I will post them in this thread. As mentioned multiple times I do want to have multiple testing iterations before incorporating the whole thing into a ranking system.Xcrypt wrote:
Dunno if they should be completely ignored (playing the same density for a longer time can be more demanding on your stamina for example), and I don't it's too much of a problem for an algorithm to determine those 'chillax' parts, but this is definitely going in the right direction.
Also another thing I would like to say is you should maybe first try doing some simple pattern checks along with density. Then ask multiple advanced++ players to playtest your system on various maps with different styles and different difficulties. They should be able to pinpoint some of the flaws. Trying to do that all in one go is painful guesswork, imo you will need multiple 'feedback stops' like this.
There's no such thing as a "kick ass player" who only plays auto-converts, if your skill is anything other than extreme novice you can do any auto-convert in your sleep and would find them extremely boring.Chocobubba wrote:
It simply wouldn't make since for a kick ass player to have all of their time thrown down the drain from playing auto-converts and have a rank far worse than some elitist that only plays !mania maps
Don't get me wrong, I agree the mania maps have a largely increased difficulty to the converted osu!standard maps... but to rule converts out all together is absurd. If there's such a big argument about it, why not just have two smaller ranking systems for mania? One for converts and one for genuine. Would solve the argument being provided here. Just have both ranks running on the same pp algorithm. As a side note, if this is not an option, why not make a poll to see how many people actually want auto converts to not count towards the new ranking system? There are obviously more people playing mania than there are on this forum.PyaKura wrote:
Please don't talk about autoconverts vs. mania-spec maps if you don't know anything about the game-mode.Chocobubba wrote:
From what I can tell, osu! does a pretty bang up job on converting.
No it does not. ACs served as temporary playable for when o!m first came out, like a preview or something like that.
But excluding that, the ranking system isn't meant to judge what songs are "valid" or not, that's what a song being approved/ranked does.
You wouldn't let football players play on an invalid field full of holes especially in a competitive environment now would you ?
Why don't you go SS all the hard and insane converts if you think they're so easy then!
Who said he doesn't know anything about the game mode?
If this was implemented wouldn't this fix the whole "AC's are garbage and so are the players who play them" argument? It would assess songs and give PP according to their difficulty. Because of this, Mania songs which are made for Mania and thus, harder, would allocate more PP, and AC's that are extremely easy and slow would allocate less. If this is true, it's better than tossing AC's out the side completely due to the fact that you could find a much harder AC song vs a low level Mania song. There may be few among many, but they are there. This couples with the fact that Mania-specific songs do exist, but creating a whole scoring system solely off of the few that are out there (versus Osu! Standard) would limit the amount of songs available to the players (Ranked wise).Tom94 wrote:
Beatmap difficulty:
This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!
Tom94 wrote:
Regarding the big auto-convert discussion:
I'm fairly positive, that a good difficulty algorithm would rate auto-converts extremely low, because they (mostly) are so easy compared to mania charts, so you would naturally have them worth less, not artificially by excluding them. Keep in mind, that the ranking system is meant to work for everyone, even the people who just start with mania who can't just dive into the mania-specific maps, or want a big map diversity at their lower level of skill.
Let me say upfront that I'm sorry my previous posts about why I support autoconverts apparently didn't even have a fragment of a decent argument. It's not like I wasn't giving my honest and truthful feelings about the mode or not trying my best explain why I feel that 99% of the maps have value (which you'll note I also stated were as a whole less difficult when compared to mania specific maps and should receive comparatively less, but still fairly calculated pp).Drace wrote:
First of all, to every post against unranking ACs (except Tom, his arguments actually made sense though I don't believe 1 point outclasses the many that's been presented from the other side.). None of you are presenting anything that could even be considered a fragment of a decent argument. Throwing stuff around like it's "absurd", "unfair" and saying we should all "perish the thought" with no basis whatsoever, thinking that it's enough to prove a point.
Yes, there are a number of mania maps available, but don't forget, there's only a small portion of that already small selection of mania specific maps that beginners can actually play through. It doesn't offer up much variety. Luckily, there are also autoconverts that first timers can pass. Many, many, more of them in fact. But since they aren't considered to be "real" mania maps, they should be all removed from the pp system. Regardless of if anyone finds them enjoyable or considers them to contain a level of difficulty suited to their playing style. Forget trying to make a pp system that is reflective of their lesser level of difficulty and ranked accordingly - let's just simply not count them anymore, because certain people feel they don't fit their perceived notion about what mania is all about.Drace wrote:
Also: there's mania specific songs that first timers can clear. The problem is the the extremely limited 5 star scale that scales o2jam lv1 and o2jam level 9 at the same 1 star making it harder to find them.
like what? can you point out what argument has no basis instead of just saying it has no basis?Drace wrote:
None of you are presenting anything that could even be considered a fragment of a decent argument. Throwing stuff around like it's "absurd", "unfair" and saying we should all "perish the thought" with no basis whatsoever, thinking that it's enough to prove a point.
ok. i'll type out my thoughts.Drace wrote:
And the slight points raised that could probably make a clueless person nod to the cause are completely overwhelmed and showed to be irrelevant in my previous post. It makes me wounder if anyone bothered reading it. Was it too long? Too hard to understand? Or maybe is it purposely being ignored because there's nothing to be said against it?
to me, that comes off as "don't rank auto-convert songs because high-level players don't like them." auto-converting standard maps is a major, attractive feature of osu!mania. they don't need to go through the ranking process because they are an inherent feature of osu!mania. whether you like the quality of the maps or not is completely irrelevant. and whether those maps hold up at a high level is also completely irrelevant.Drace wrote:
First of all, those autoconverts wouldn't pass the ranking process if they were submitted like mania maps. Many maps gots notes mapped to stuff that mania maps normally wouldn't. The long note's release are not correctly timed. And no matter the map, you'll never have something layering multiple tracks which is pretty much the essence of multi key games like this. These maps were converted from a 1k source and the patterns processed by a semi-controlled randomization.
you need to recognize that difficulty is relative. speed is extremely difficult for new players. the patterns found in auto-converted maps, while easy to you, are also extremely difficult for new players. instead of seeing this from your current skill level, you need to see it from the perspective of a new player. osu!mania features gameplay requiring skills that are not typically used or trained. having a way for new players to practice the mode using familiar and enjoyable songs while at the same time allowing them a way to participate in ladder play is a great thing.Drace wrote:
With autoconverts, speed is the ONLY difficulty factor. You will never find difficult patterns. "Difficult patterns" are patterns that would still be difficult when slowed down because of how the notes are placed. I would agree to a certain extent with the people that mentioned that the people that play autoconverts exclusively aren't true mania players. The whole difficulty ladder in all similar rhythm games is learning and recognizing different patterns after extended play, even the standard mode. But the maps converted from there are stripped from the clever patterns they once had and become a useless junk with single-dimension difficulty.
this is the value of auto-convert maps and there is nothing wrong with that. lower difficulties help acclimate a new player to the controls, higher difficulties introduce simple beginner patterns, and the hardest difficulties get the new player used to playing at higher speeds. having them ranked allows a player to track their progress. and when their rank gains start to slow, they should be confident enough to do the easy mania-specific maps.Drace wrote:
To everyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying look at this. t/146615 and scroll down to the pattern repository. Now try and find autos that feature anything but beginner patterns. All those "omg so hard" autos are just fast beginner and maybe novice level patterns. Keep in mind that this is a just a fraction of "common" patterns. Harder maps all feature unique stuff to make them memorable.
Everything said is untrue or opinions blinded by ignorance.MwarriorHiei wrote:
like what? can you point out what argument has no basis instead of just saying it has no basis?
So what? you conducted a survey and deduced that only high level players like mania specifics? You're pulling false statements out of fin air in hopes of making a valid argument. What my statement is saying is that the notes do not follow the music, they play along. Notes are randomized and with untimed occurrences. And they're not a "feature" of mania. Mania's feature is simulating playing songs, not tapping random notes to the song's BPM. It's also not a question of difficulty at this point.MwarriorHiei wrote:
to me, that comes off as "don't rank auto-convert songs because high-level players don't like them." auto-converting standard maps is a major, attractive feature of osu!mania. they don't need to go through the ranking process because they are an inherent feature of osu!mania. whether you like the quality of the maps or not is completely irrelevant. and whether those maps hold up at a high level is also completely irrelevant.
Yeah, speed is ONLY ONE dimension to a maps difficulty. And easy maps can be found on mania specifics. What are you even trying to prove here?MwarriorHiei wrote:
you need to recognize that difficulty is relative. speed is extremely difficult for new players. the patterns found in auto-converted maps, while easy to you, are also extremely difficult for new players. instead of seeing this from your current skill level, you need to see it from the perspective of a new player. osu!mania features gameplay requiring skills that are not typically used or trained. having a way for new players to practice the mode using familiar and enjoyable songs while at the same time allowing them a way to participate in ladder play is a great thing.
Nothing I said was opinions, it was flat facts about what creates difficulty on map. It was about why autos cannot determine skill accurately. And you're talking about new players as if they'd rather autos over mania-specifics when I seen the exact opposite. Also what's up with this lie about mania specifics being impossible for new players?MwarriorHiei wrote:
from what i've been seeing, you are making arguments only from the perspective of a high-level player. you need to also think about the low-level players. the osu!mania ladder should not be some exclusive club open only to the skilled and experienced.
This whole post resolves around the assumption that mania-specifics are hard. When I'm saying a mania map has multiple dimensions to their difficulty, I'm not saying they are harder by default. In fact, because of this multi-dimensional difficulty it's actually much easier to make easier mania specific maps.MandyJS wrote:
[...]
Interesting. I know that it really depends on what the player spends his time on training, but we also use single diff levels for o2 and BMS right? Same problem there, but I do think the general difficulty is reflected by the level. Also for a ranking system, the difficulty shouldn't be relative to the player, but relative to all players (or one could say objective).xxbidiao wrote:
In one word, to accurately calculate the difficulty of the map using only the patterns with one universal numbers is not fair at all, and to sum up multiple numbers doesn't make sense.
TBH our temporary solution include human work (a lot of them), and use player's past performance data other than patterns itself to determine the difficulty.
O2 official use nearly the same algorithm as current star difficulty (density based).Xcrypt wrote:
Interesting. I know that it really depends on what the player spends his time on training, but we also use single diff levels for o2 and BMS right? Same problem there, but I do think the general difficulty is reflected by the level. Also for a ranking system, the difficulty shouldn't be relative to the player, but relative to all players (or one could say objective).xxbidiao wrote:
In one word, to accurately calculate the difficulty of the map using only the patterns with one universal numbers is not fair at all, and to sum up multiple numbers doesn't make sense.
TBH our temporary solution include human work (a lot of them), and use player's past performance data other than patterns itself to determine the difficulty.
1. That's not a big concern of the ranking system. The default mode of a particular map is to be weighted the most. If the amount of hitobjects (and also type, holds and normals that is) stays the same, then they might even be able to get equal treatment.xxbidiao wrote:
1. 4K or 7K, which one is harder? (How do you weight 4k/7k?)
2. Maps which is full of hits or maps which is full of holds, which one is harder? (How do you weight holds?)
3. Stairs or random hits, which is harder?
4. What is the definition of "Hard", anyway?
Yes, exactly. We would have a hard time upon initial release...Xcrypt wrote:
Yeah I agree xxbidiao, to some extent.
With the example of stairs vs random hits. It really depends on the player, I am mainly a RD user so patterns like stairs are not my best thing.
But if we calculate it according to the average of all players, I think this is the best we can do. Ofcourse, we'll have to guess a bit here and there, but let's say stairs vs random hits, they weigh exactly the same? For example.
Maybe only weigh things that are clearly harder for the majority of the playerbase, like density, LN, jacks etc.
In all honesty this is painful guesswork right now. We'll just have to see at the first release of the new scoring system and then we will be able to pinpoint some flaws I think.
Already been suggested and heavily denied. But I cant help but ask, why one or two? If a player is good enough to rank high in all keymodes I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to :/Karuta-Roromiya wrote:
how about rank of osu!mania separate become 4 (4k player only,5k,6k and 7k) ?
and every player can only choose 1 or 2 of them
Limiting yourself to one hand if you can use both should not be considered by such a system imho. That's like assuming people would use one finger, even for streams, in standard, thus giving people who actually use both an unrealistic bonus.Drace wrote:
Also @tom, checking for single finger strain simply covers for jacks and hand strain is pretty much irrelevant. I mean there's so many different playstyles out there. I personally play 4k with one hand. In 7k some people use left thumb, some right, some both and some none. I don't think a variable that depends on playstyle would be a smart thing to do. And it all depends on the patterns anyways, the value would be pretty irrelevant anyways.
That's the stupidest idea ever. I play all K's and I want to keep playing all of them without having "to choose" any in particular.Karuta-Roromiya wrote:
how about rank of osu!mania separate become 4 (4k player only,5k,6k and 7k) ?
and every player can only choose 1 or 2 of them