I'll just repeat what others said before to give it more attention in case anybody missed it

the problem with autoconverts is that they're bad as maps
players should be encouraged as much as possible to play real mania maps and not automaps that barely if at all fit the song

that's the reason to either heavy nerf or remove automaps from ranking

lets face it: a lot of automaps are simply "hard" because they don't match the song well and you need to memorize when to release LNs on them to get more accuracy or memorize parts where the system randomly made a 1/4 jack inside a stream on 180+ bpm. it doesn't test your skill, it's just farming/lots of free time for retries. players shouldn't be forced into a chore of playing those unfun bad excuse for a map things to rank as well as others.

I think auto-converts shouldn't be counted. As people have already said, they're terrible compared to mania-spec maps. Either don't count them, or make them worth WAY less. There's not a whole bunch of mania-spec maps right now, but there's enough to get by now and a lot more will come soon. Auto-converts are a bad representation of actual mania maps. Some are good, but most are god-awful and don't match the music at all. They should be for fun when a song you like doesn't have a mania-spec song.

And accuracy shouldn't be a big part of calculating rank. It should be worth something, but not a ton.
Let's say there's two people. Player A gets 95%+ every time, but only plays easy/normal tracks and falls apart at anything harder. Player B gets around 75%-80% each time, but is playing insane songs. Player B is obviously better, but has lower accuracy. Give Player A a little bonus for having that accuracy, but they definitely don't deserve more than Player B.

As for different key modes, I have no idea. 4k definitely shouldn't be less than 7k just because it has less keys. People who think 7k is harder because it has more keys are wrong. They can both be extremely difficult. 4k can murder you if you don't have stamina and 7k will get you with patterns. Because of this, some 4k maps are harder than some 7k maps. Unless different keymodes are being split into different rankings (which I don't think should happen), we have to take this into consideration.

Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".

In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.

I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.

It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).

Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.

They are kinda bad though. I get what you're saying like you don't want to be forced to play maps that are too hard for you, and I agree. You should try some of the easier mania spec maps. Not only are they much more fun but they will also help you improve faster. The only problem is that atm we don't have much true beginner mania spec maps atm. Well, actually it's more that we just don't have many ranked mania spec maps at all.

I still see one problem in it. For example, I'm not really concerned about all these anime-based or nightcore maps, because I'm simply not into it. I prefer electronic music, rock music and something like that. And then, when I want to be ranked (because I do want), I'm forced to play maps I simply hate listening to, which often results in a worse performance.

I'm playing mostly for fun, with no urgent chase for a high ranking place, but from these 80 osumania maps, as someone has already said, there might be... 10 or so that are not based on asian themes. What then? Do I have to play 10 same maps over and over to go higher in score? Please take in account that not every player is a proffesional mania! player and won't play every song which is given, but still wants to be ranked.

to me to be of
more notes per second hardest
whether either 4k or 7k but if that consideration is more difficult to play 7k

zedrux1 wrote:

more notes per second hardest

That's debatable as you can change the sliding velocity...

MandyJS wrote:

Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".

In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.

I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.

It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).

Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.

The experience you've got by playing autoconverts is not 100% wasted. It's more like you, just like I did, and pretty much everyone who didn't play any mania games till o!m did, just need a bit of time to get used to mania-spec maps. I don't know, I might sound like an elitist or something, but playing a game which is not meant to be played this way feels wrong in my eyes. I myself "wasted" 6 months of my playtime playing auticonverts, but I got to know the joy of mania-spec maps by myself. I was starting to feel like autoconverts were just plain boring and they featured all the same gameplay. It's a bit sad to say it this way, but people who got stuck into playing autoconverts are simply victims of the birth of a new game mode which hadn't any maps at first (and tbh they were not really promoted as well. Only those who kept an eye on the game mode knew of their existence until a few months ago).

By making newcomers play mania-spec maps, the mode will go towards the right direction. Letting them get lost in the autoconverts would be a big mistake from our side, who knows o!m for a good amount of time already.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, I didn't mean to harm anyone by voicing my opinion.

Also take note that I'm trying my hardest to change things now since we probably won't see another chance coming up until god knows when.

putting aside the issue of the state of mania
this is a discussion about competitive ranking
if you can't play mania maps as good as somebody else - then you don't deserve the same rank as them
as simple as that.
which is why autoconverts shouldn't weight as much. if you can play mania maps just as good, then you have no problem getting your points from actual mania maps. if all you can play are autoconvert and can't play mania maps, then you don't deserve the same rank to begin with. players shouldn't be forced to farm autoconverts to catch up to less good players who simply farm more

if for some reason you enjoy playing those autoconverts nobody stops you from playing them; but then play them just for that and not for a rank on a competitive ranking board

PyaKura wrote:

By making newcomers play mania-spec maps, the mode will go towards the right direction. Letting them get lost in the autoconverts would be a big mistake from our side, who knows o!m for a good amount of time already.

The issue is, there are literally no maps, which are available for begginers to play. Even those with one or one and a half star are seemingly as hard as four-star auto-converts. I don't want to sound offensive, but there is no worse way of encouraging new people to play osu!mania than slapping them in the face with way too difficult songs. And they won't have an indicator of their progress when they will play (therefore unranked) auto-converts so they won't know whether they can start playind mania!specs or not. The process of introducing new ranking system needs to be long, and the first part of it has to be making loads of new maps, especially easier ones, if you want osu!mania to go this way.

Just noticed: I realised that you speak like every mania!spec map was perfectly timed and super-accurate. I don't really know hat makes them look like that, but the process of choosing a mania!spec map to be ranked is similar to the case of standard maps, and, as you see, there are maps which are worse, and that's what bad auto-converts come from.

Janioszek wrote:

I'm playing mostly for fun, with no urgent chase for a high ranking place, but from these 80 osumania maps, as someone has already said, there might be... 10 or so that are not based on asian themes. What then? Do I have to play 10 same maps over and over to go higher in score? Please take in account that not every player is a proffesional mania! player and won't play every song which is given, but still wants to be ranked.

no
if you don't like the songs already ranked then map some up and try to get them ranked.

having autoconverts contribute to ranking only further encourages people to not bother mapping mania songs, which then in turn makes it so people don't want to remove them from PP because there's not enough songs without them. The sooner they're removed the sooner we might see more people playing/making mania-specific maps

it's not like removing them from ranking removes the maps entirely. People can still play them, they can still practice on them, and they can still enjoy them. They just won't become within the top 100 rank by playing them all day long.

PyaKura wrote:

I was starting to feel like autoconverts were just plain boring and they featured all the same gameplay.

I appreciate your opinion I just haven't reached this point yet I suppose and still find the autoconverts more fun to play than the mania specific maps, which I either fail three seconds into or spend the whole time feeling like I'm playing "catch up" with the notes and patterns and miss the song. I play because I like to feel in the music, but with most mania specific maps being too complex for me (the 7k ones anyway - because I like those the best ), I end up spending too much time feeling like "how can I get my fingers to conform to this pattern" instead of enjoying the song.

Maybe it's like Xcrypt said... there's not enough beginner mania specific maps. If there were more at my level, maybe I wouldn't feel this way.

Autoconverts need to be counted (for now), because we only have like 80 mania maps (with only a small handful of them being non-7K, screwing over most players) lol.

I don't see the problem with using them anyway: mania-specific maps have more objects/density, and typically have higher OD, so they'll be much more rewarding. PPv2 cannot be farmed like PP, so only your best scores (legit maps) will matter. Nobody needs to worry about autoconverts.

Edit: TL;DR: mania maps will naturally be worth more anyway

There's still way too few mania maps to completely ignore autoconverts.
I'm completely for the idea of knocking out autoconverts, even though I play a lot of them, but that's maybe something to consider when there's enough maps to not have 300 people stuck on the same pp because they SS everything.

As for keys, why not do as ppv1 did and just take into consideration the score penalty from the key mods? You don't need to penalise the pp itself. I've yet to see a map where playing it in 4K makes it any harder than it originally is. 8K doesn't mean it's going to be easier either, so 0.95 or so might be just enough.
That's for the autoconverts though.
Maybe when they get SR working properly we could find something for mania maps, but as they stand at the moment, why not just keep it as it was in ppv1?

Why even make a new pp system

Just a side note for those of you who think there aren't enough beginner maps, or think that o!m is simply too hard.

t/146615

In this thread, there also is a link to Entozer's Map List in which you can find many maps ranging from pure beginner to super pro. Sure, most of them are unranked/unsubmitted, but I do confirm that beginners maps exist. It just takes some effort to find them. I'm getting off topic here though.

I don't understand. If auto-converts are so dull and provide all the same gameplay, why don't even the best auto-converts (which are more accurate than some mania!specs, by the way) have only 1-million-scores on their rank charts? They are so predictable that everyone can max them easily, can't they? Let's take the example of... I don't know, a Talent Shredder. Noone maxed it yet, and, as you keep saying, it uses such a recognisable pattern, that it should be millioned, shouldn't it? You cannot say that this map is badly converted, because you might as well call some mania!spec maps bad.

I'd like to mention a few things considering how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!

@Janio : Adding more random notes to make harder chordstreams and whatnot is not changing the gameplay. Autoconverts are bad in the way they are... "mapped" :that is, there is no logic in how the notes are falling in anyway. There is a difference between a stupidly hard map without any sense and an extreme but well mapped map.

Tom94 wrote:

it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!

technically there's no such thing as harder "patterns" (due to shape etc), although pretty much everybody would agree that ring/middle trills are a problem to play (which is also why shields are hard) - at least in the beginning - but this is easily neglected by players playing better and doesn't weight enough to make a big impact (as in, trills are just about as hard with all other fingers too)

in the end it's all density (where 1 LN = 2 density) and jacks/finger usage repeat in short timeframes.

also stuff like 8 1/4 notes is harder than 4 chords of 2 notes, so 'amount of timing snap divisions peaks' might also be a "thing".

Tom94 wrote:

I'd like to mention a few things considering how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD and AR, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!

You can look into the thread I linked earlier (my side note post). There is pattern repository which can give you an idea of what's hard and what's not.

Please do not make HR change AR. AR is something that is really depedant on players. Some play better with lower, some with higher. I like it how it works now (everyone can choose their scrolling speed). Also I really appreciate your attempt! awesome
If you need like any specific help, feel free to message me. Like I don't feel like actually coding myself atm but I wouldn't mind helping out here and there on the actual algorithm. I'm not a great mathematician nor programmer nor player, but I do have a some understanding of how they work.

these last arguments I've seen make me glad I'm not involved in this

"everybody is wrong except me" - everyone

autoconverts were not made for mania, that's a fact, autoconverts don't play like real mania maps- especially on higher levels, that's a fact too. as a matter of fact they play like shit and shouldn't ever be used as an example of mania done right but you're free to enjoy your shit and roll in it as much as you want

map compelxity is not given only by density, that's a fact too (e.g. so called 'gay' patterns)

if you'd say the devil is in the details a tiered system for charts has been the way the insane bms scale does it and it works. o2pf does this as well, and guess what. it works.

calling a shitty autogenerated chart better than charts that have been thought from scratch (and in detail) is honestly insulting to all the communities that came before osu!mania like it's the grand savior of vertical scrolling rhythm games

guess what: it isn't. thousands of shitty autogenerated charts that enjoyable are miles away from the real deal, and it's easy to see that a lot of people here have been spoiled (which I feared from day one)

but hey, I'm some sort of troll in everyone else's eyes so disregard me

Xcrypt wrote:

Please do not make HR change AR. AR is something that is really depedant on players. Some play better with lower, some with higher. I like it how it works now (everyone can choose their scrolling speed). Also I really appreciate your attempt! awesome
If you need like any specific help, feel free to message me. Like I don't feel like actually coding myself atm but I wouldn't mind helping out here and there on the actual algorithm. I'm not a great mathematician nor programmer nor player, but I do have a some understanding of how they work.

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote my post. Of course, HR will not change AR in mania, my bad. Must have been with one of the other modes in my head.

Agka wrote:

these last arguments I've seen make me glad I'm not involved in this

"everybody is wrong except me" - everyone

autoconverts were not made for mania, that's a fact, autoconverts don't play like real mania maps- especially on higher levels, that's a fact too. as a matter of fact they play like shit and shouldn't ever be used as an example of mania done right but you're free to enjoy your shit and roll in it as much as you want

map compelxity is not given only by density, that's a fact too (e.g. so called 'gay' patterns)

if you'd say the devil is in the details a tiered system for charts has been the way the insane bms scale does it and it works. o2pf does this as well, and guess what. it works.

calling a shitty autogenerated chart better than charts that have been thought from scratch (and in detail) is honestly insulting to all the communities that came before osu!mania like it's the grand savior of vertical scrolling rhythm games

guess what: it isn't. thousands of shitty autogenerated charts that enjoyable are miles away from the real deal, and it's easy to see that a lot of people here have been spoiled (which I feared from day one)

but hey, I'm some sort of troll in everyone else's eyes so disregard me

Your opinion is not disregarded. However it's not the purpose of a ranking system to guide the players towards what they want to play. It is merely there for rating performance, and that depends solely on how hard a map is, not on how subjectively well-made it is.
Of course "hardness" already is a very subjective thing, but let's not overcomplicate it by adding more factors. As I said, if a general system won't work, then another solution will have to be found.

Tom94 wrote:

For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD and AR, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.

So mods are going to come in and affect your pp?

For your difficulity judging: An algorithm is nice and all, but I think there is also a alternate possibility of letting experienced players determine how hard that map is before it becomes ranked. That would probably be quite accurate (sort of like the level system in o2, except better because o2 has a lot of 'wrong' levels on maps.)
Also Agka I think you are right but I also think you are a troll haha. Maybe you can share how the insane scale BMS or o2pf system works?

Alright, after seeing that side of it, I'm gonna have to go ahead and join your side.

At first I thought autoconverts shouldn't be counted. They're pretty meh compared to actual mania-spec songs. I do play a good amount of converts though, but only because I like the song. I'm not really big on how they're converted. It irks me. Because of that, I wouldn't mind if they weren't ranked, but I didn't think about the other side. I forgot what it was like to be in that position. When I started off, I couldn't even touch mania-spec songs. They are challenging and the patterns can be off-putting. I wanted to have fun, not fail instantly.

I'm going to go ahead and say that autoconverts should be counted in rankings for now. Make them worth much less than mania-spec songs, but still include them. At least until we have a sizable amount of songs that less-skilled players can have fun with. If we kick out autoconverts, we are kicking a large amount of people from the rankings. That doesn't sound very fair. Just because they can't pass or don't enjoy the mania-spec songs because of their difficulty, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be ranked.

The problem is that autoconverts actively hurt the mode and its community. They give people a wrong idea and mislead new players in multiple ways.

1. The keymode of autoconverts goes up with difficulty, what makes people think that you can "work up" from 4K to 7K, while that's not the case. You could be playing 4K for years and still be unable to play 7K at all. You're supposed to learn 7K (or maybe even 8K) as soon as possible, after you can play it you can manage all lower keymodes with just a few plays. We have a lot of players who started with 4K and never moved up because they got comfortable with their 4K skill, while they'd have to start over to learn 7K.
2. They often have nothing to do with music. That makes people think it's what the mode is about, while real mania is about playing the music, not playing along with the music.
3. They don't feature patterns. You could get great at mania but as soon as you see something like brackets or complex LNs you're clueless in real mania. Autoconverts don't even feature something as simple as one LN starting at the same time another one ends.
4. They distract players from the fact we don't have a lot of maps. Unranking autoconverts would make people notice that and in addition to more real mania players we'd also get more mappers.

Agka wrote:

calling a shitty autogenerated chart better than charts that have been thought from scratch (and in detail) is honestly insulting to all the communities that came before osu!mania like it's the grand savior of vertical scrolling rhythm games

Just to clarify... I'm in no way calling autoconvert maps "better constructed" than mania specific maps. Yes, I realize that a lot of work goes into making actual mania specific maps, which I'm sure are great for people at that level. The problem that I ran into was whenever I tried to play even the "easy" 1 star mania specific maps was that they were too complex for my skill level. I'd compare them to "difficult normal" or "easy hard" autoconvert maps.

I don't know about most people, but I couldn't make the jump straight into mania specific maps due to their complexity, which left me feeling discouraged from either constantly failing the supposedly "easy" maps, or barely keeping up with them, which killed my enjoyment of the song. This is why to me autoconverts were always more enjoyable.

Should people be locked out of the ranking because they aren't that advanced yet? I would hope not... All I want is for people to be ranked in accordance to what they can play - where naturally most autoconverts would have less of a difficulty rating, which would translate into a fair amount of pp.

Anyway, I hope no one took what I said as an insult to the mapping community - you all do fabulous work I'm sure, but I'm not skilled enough yet to be able to enjoy it very much.

As a side note, this discussion has prompted me to give mania specific maps another try and I'm pleased to report that I'm now able to complete the "easy" maps. Though I don't find them very easy at all lol...

MandyJS wrote:

Should people be locked out of the ranking because they aren't that advanced yet?

uh, yes?

do you have any idea what's a competitive ranking

if you're having trouble playing [Easy] diffs then your rank should be the least of your concerns

Kanachann wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD and AR, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.

So mods are going to come in and affect your pp?

Just the map, not pp i guess?...
And Tom also mentioned that HR will not change AR in mania previously.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/147552

This may be of some help regarding difficulty.

IMO there are 3 main areas of difficulty in osu!m:
1. Note Density (As stated previously by many others) - Both density of notes for burst sections and overall NPS (Notes per Second) should be one of the main areas to judge difficulty
2. Holds/Long Notes - Holds have their own set of difficulty and really test finger independence. While it may not be as dense key-count-wise as a burst of dense notes it adds its own complexity via hammerheads, inverted holds, etc (More in Drace's thread that was posted earlier https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/146615).
3. Speed Value(SV) Changes - Some files may not be as dense nor as complex hold-wise, but can trip people up with SV changes. This requires a lot of adaption with reading skills and can be really difficult at times.

Uhh... Does autoconvert counts with the pp for mania? If not i kinda disagree.. Many players rely on autoconverted maps as they could just score better than the usual mania map. If the autoconvert does not count in the pp then i assumr you really need to upgrade the community for mania. Modder/BATs etc. Because with such lack of people who are doing mania maps how can we rank if autoconvert doesnt count as the pp. Either way if you can only gain pp in a mania map only. I think it will be very hard fot some people that doesnt start to play mania yet. And thus the pp will work very slow if you cannot gain pp on autoconverted maps.

Addition: we really need to work up on judgement rate for mania

Aqo wrote:

MandyJS wrote:

Should people be locked out of the ranking because they aren't that advanced yet?

uh, yes?

do you have any idea what's a competitive ranking

if you're having trouble playing [Easy] diffs then your rank should be the least of your concerns

it may sound elitist

but yes, what are you doing in competitions if you can't even do the basic stuff? Do you really go to a robotics competition without knowing how to build your own robot and expect to compete with your basic electronics knowledge? Or do you try to compare what you know with doctors when you only have high-school level biology?

Xcrypt wrote:

Also Agka I think you are right but I also think you are a troll haha. Maybe you can share how the insane scale BMS or o2pf system works?

o2pf works a bit like this.

There's different skill levels- High class, Demon, Monster, Lost Humanity (off the top of my head)

To move from one skill level to the next you complete a set of challenges and move onto it. Some of the challenges include being able to one-on-one someone of that skill level and beat him/her, as well as the basic "pass this map under certain requirements" or so.

You could easily adopt something similar while accounting to the different dimensions of skill that mania play offers.

Overall, accuracy, LN, etc..

Agka wrote:

it may sound elitist

but yes, what are you doing in competitions if you can't even do the basic stuff? Do you really go to a robotics competition without knowing how to build your own robot and expect to compete with your basic electronics knowledge? Or do you try to compare what you know with doctors when you only have high-school level biology?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought ranked competitions were made to rank ALL players according to their skill. If I'm the worst mania player in existence, then give me the very lowest rank. That way I'll know where I stand and can celebrate small increases in rank as I become a better player.

To say lesser skilled people are not even worthy of being ranked isn't in the spirit of competition, from my point of view anyway.

Just a few comments from someone relatively new to mania (my ranking used to be around 880).

I agree with all the previous comments saying that auto-converts should be weighed a LOT less than mania specific maps. No matter how hard the song is in osu mode (lets say FOUR DIMENSIONS Freedom Dive, or 0108 Scarlet Rose, or even Madness Precipitation for 狂気ちんでん), auto-converts never reach surpass a certain level of difficulty. Unlike most MX or SHD maps (or even HD maps), auto-converts never include (from my experience, not necessarily accurate, sorry if I'm using personal terminology, I'll try my best to be clear, I might be editing this list):

1. Holding long notes before the previous long note is finished (nearly every HD+ map includes holding long notes halfway into another long note, or letting go of one long note before the other one is finished, if you really need an example, fripSide - future gazer http://osu.ppy.sh/s/115715)
2. "Burst" maps, even though not necessarily a good determinant of skill, but still a good reference (i.e: KOTOKO - unfinished http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102519)
3. Melodic sweeps (I'm not saying the occasional 5 note sweep, I mean shit like MEPHISTO MX) and sweeping holds (bj. Halo - Ende SHD http://osu.ppy.sh/s/79132, or MEPHISTO SHD)
4. Actual beatmaps, not rhythmmaps (Silent Siren - Stella http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81166)

I'm perfectly aware that 4k can definitely get as hard as 7k, but I also believe that 7k should be the standard for mania (or else why would the system be limited to hitting a maximum of 6 notes simultaneously). Anything out of 7k should be left just for recreation purposes, and should be weighed less in comparison to 7k. Accuracy shouldn't be weighed as heavily as in other modes, as it would just encourage people to play auto-convert and easy maps. You could consider counting the MAX to 300 ratio, as I think that would be a rather accurate way of determining one's skill. You're making a brilliant move in tallying all scores (not only the top 50), as all mode-specific maps are a hell lot harder to go into top 50. All mods should be left the way they are right now.

I'll try to add to this whenever I have time, quite busy right now.

MandyJS wrote:

To say lesser skilled people are not even worthy of being ranked isn't in the spirit of competition, from my point of view anyway.

I'm fine with this, but then why would you weigh autoconverts the same skilled people play?

that's the point

Agka wrote:

I'm fine with this, but then why would you weigh autoconverts the same skilled people play?

that's the point

I'm sorry you've misunderstood me. I've always been stating that since autoconverts aren't as challenging as the mania specific maps that they should be weighted accordingly for pp.

Here's my previously posted thoughts on the subject so you don't have to do searching...

MandyJS wrote:

I'm sorry you've misunderstood me. I've always been stating that since autoconverts aren't as challenging as the mania specific maps that they should be weighted accordingly for pp.

yeah, as I said as long as autoconverts are weighted very, very low, almost negligible (as I harshly said before)

Please, autoconverts should NOT be included in the ranking formula.

I'm sure this was said, but autoconverts really kill the rankings. It's a little bs seeing myself being beaten by ranked 20k people and then I beat a rank 20 something.

EDIT: Or rank autoconverts difficulty accordingly to the mania star difficulty. For example, people are complaining that a 5 star autoconvert is as hard as a one-two star o!m specific map. When changing into mania mode, they should adjust the star difficulty accordingly, this way they'll have less weighting.