Here is my opinion regarding different keycounts. Even though I'm talking about RC in there, my idea of equality betweens Ks remains the same here, regarding the pp system.
Well then, should we have 4 separate rating systems? And, if someone plays 7K songs on 4K mod, should it be counted in 4K rating, or still in 7K one?Riddle96 wrote:
Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.
K mods wouldn't even work if we only take mania-spec mapsets into account.Janioszek wrote:
Well then, should we have 4 separate rating systems? And, if someone plays 7K songs on 4K mod, should it be counted in 4K rating, or still in 7K one?Riddle96 wrote:
Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.
I know, but, in my opinion, there are still way too few mania-specified maps, and there is not much to create the rating from. In addition, there are hardly any famous mania-only map creators at the moment. Introducing a rating based only on these maps is just too standoffish... I don't think auto-converts are as good, but we need to take them into account at least in a small piece.PyaKura wrote:
K mods wouldn't even work if we only take mania-spec mapsets into account.
Aqo wrote:
- average map density
- peak density for a 3~8 seconds length of the hardest part of the map
- amount of jacks and how long/fast jacks are they
those are the main 3 things that make mania charts hard to get a good result on; and they're often absent in most autoconverts, which leads those autoconverts to just be an acc-farm-fest.
there -ARE- some autoconverts that are hard and deserve rank imo, like extreme fantasy, dj amuro - F, etc
but either way, stuff like A ranks on much harder charts should be worth more than S ranks on very easy charts. The algorithm should be able to determine "difficulty of getting S" per chart based on the 3 above criteria and awards points accordingly, where a B rank gives roughly no points (because you can pretty much just mash fast enough and get B on most things), A rank (90-95) gives a fair amount of points depending on amount of bads and eventually S ranks giving much more but with a more linear addition from extra acc.
yes, SS is -much- harder than 97% on the same chart, but SS [Normal] shouldn't beat 95% [Hard] or SS [Hard] shouldn't beat 95% [Insane] and so on. (the difficulty names are just to illustrate difficulty progression. difficulty names are pretty much meaningless in mania, not hard to find something called [Easy] harder than most ranked [MX] charts lol)
It doesn't really matter, since autoconverts make as much sense when they are 6k as when they are 8k. Some converted maps have 5keys because of unfathomable reasons, (Caravan Palace - Dragons) for example, even though osu! version is bazillion times harder than normals that are converted into 5k as well.October Scream wrote:
Key mods should not give or should take any pp possible. The key mods should also be unranked if you don't want to get pp involved. Key mods change the whole song for the player by giving them less notes, and different placements of the notes, so it is completely unrelated to the song in it's normal state. Half time and easy are fine since they don't change the songs note placement or amount of notes.
I personally quite enjoy quite a few autoconverts, mostly because of the music though. And that's what their purpose should be, pure fun of playing a song you like (but there is no chart for it) or improving playing chords with one hand, because computer decided it's a good time to put them all on the one side of the playfield.Decon082 wrote:
Some of the converted maps can help for building accuracy skills. I got a lot more accurate on Mania by playing the auto-converts. I also got better at holds from them (the rhythm game I came from did not require holding long notes). But are they a real indication of skill? Not really. There are just so few auto-converts that have reasonable patterns, and most of the insanes just test your ability to do random chord switching at various bpms.
as tear said do not count autoconverts pleaseTear wrote:
Do anything but for the love of god do not count autoconverts in pp.
And imo different keymodes are not comparable - you can't say that some 4K player is better or worse than a 7K player. They should have separate rankings.
I agree, at least to the moment there will be more mania!spec maps. As you said, it can be easily patched without any consequences.Full Tablet wrote:
I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.
It's not about difficulty. They are too BAD to be ranked to the very core. You could as well make custom taiko difficulties rankable is osu! standard - distance snap, connect two objects into a slider every 4 notes, make stacks out of 1/4s and you have yourself amazing ranked osu! map.Full Tablet wrote:
I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.
In a ranking system, it is important to have a method to determine the difficulty of each chart so weightings become appropriate. If the method is appropriate, then auto-converts should naturally give less pp since they lack patterns and other things that make exclusive charts harder.
Giving these maps special treatment could be just a patch solution if the weightings go wrong.
About how bad is the quality of the auto-converts, how well mapped a song is doesn't really tell much about the skill of the players that play it. Players are free to play good quality maps if they want.
Making them count towards pp is a special treatment, no matter how you look at it. I mean, they only served as a momentary solution for when o!m came out. At that time, there weren't any mania-spec maps. But now we have some, and look, I'm pretty sure that forcing players to play mania-spec maps in order to get pp will bring more attention towards the game-mode - that is, towards what it is supposed to be. Players will pay more attention to new mania-spec maps which get ranked more and more often these days, and, what I call the "real mania community", will grow and give birth to more mania players of course but also mappers, leading to a quick development of the game mode. So yeah, even though the map choice may be very little at first, things should go better rather quickly with loads of new mania maps.Full Tablet wrote:
I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.
MandyJS wrote:
Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".
In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.
I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.
It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).
Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.
That's debatable as you can change the sliding velocity...zedrux1 wrote:
more notes per second hardest
The experience you've got by playing autoconverts is not 100% wasted. It's more like you, just like I did, and pretty much everyone who didn't play any mania games till o!m did, just need a bit of time to get used to mania-spec maps. I don't know, I might sound like an elitist or something, but playing a game which is not meant to be played this way feels wrong in my eyes. I myself "wasted" 6 months of my playtime playing auticonverts, but I got to know the joy of mania-spec maps by myself. I was starting to feel like autoconverts were just plain boring and they featured all the same gameplay. It's a bit sad to say it this way, but people who got stuck into playing autoconverts are simply victims of the birth of a new game mode which hadn't any maps at first (and tbh they were not really promoted as well. Only those who kept an eye on the game mode knew of their existence until a few months ago).MandyJS wrote:
Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".
In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.
I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.
It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).
Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.
The issue is, there are literally no maps, which are available for begginers to play. Even those with one or one and a half star are seemingly as hard as four-star auto-converts. I don't want to sound offensive, but there is no worse way of encouraging new people to play osu!mania than slapping them in the face with way too difficult songs. And they won't have an indicator of their progress when they will play (therefore unranked) auto-converts so they won't know whether they can start playind mania!specs or not. The process of introducing new ranking system needs to be long, and the first part of it has to be making loads of new maps, especially easier ones, if you want osu!mania to go this way.PyaKura wrote:
By making newcomers play mania-spec maps, the mode will go towards the right direction. Letting them get lost in the autoconverts would be a big mistake from our side, who knows o!m for a good amount of time already.
noJanioszek wrote:
I'm playing mostly for fun, with no urgent chase for a high ranking place, but from these 80 osumania maps, as someone has already said, there might be... 10 or so that are not based on asian themes. What then? Do I have to play 10 same maps over and over to go higher in score? Please take in account that not every player is a proffesional mania! player and won't play every song which is given, but still wants to be ranked.
I appreciate your opinion I just haven't reached this point yet I suppose and still find the autoconverts more fun to play than the mania specific maps, which I either fail three seconds into or spend the whole time feeling like I'm playing "catch up" with the notes and patterns and miss the song. I play because I like to feel in the music, but with most mania specific maps being too complex for me (the 7k ones anyway - because I like those the best ), I end up spending too much time feeling like "how can I get my fingers to conform to this pattern" instead of enjoying the song.PyaKura wrote:
I was starting to feel like autoconverts were just plain boring and they featured all the same gameplay.
technically there's no such thing as harder "patterns" (due to shape etc), although pretty much everybody would agree that ring/middle trills are a problem to play (which is also why shields are hard) - at least in the beginning - but this is easily neglected by players playing better and doesn't weight enough to make a big impact (as in, trills are just about as hard with all other fingers too)Tom94 wrote:
it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!
You can look into the thread I linked earlier (my side note post). There is pattern repository which can give you an idea of what's hard and what's not.Tom94 wrote:
I'd like to mention a few things considering how I plan on tackling this.
The general direction:
- First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
- I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
- Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
- Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.
Beatmap difficulty:
This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD and AR, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!
I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote my post. Of course, HR will not change AR in mania, my bad. Must have been with one of the other modes in my head.Xcrypt wrote:
Please do not make HR change AR. AR is something that is really depedant on players. Some play better with lower, some with higher. I like it how it works now (everyone can choose their scrolling speed). Also I really appreciate your attempt! awesome
If you need like any specific help, feel free to message me. Like I don't feel like actually coding myself atm but I wouldn't mind helping out here and there on the actual algorithm. I'm not a great mathematician nor programmer nor player, but I do have a some understanding of how they work.