Before I thought that it's a matter of opinion, so keeping them is subjective, but after TAG4s were removed from the std pp pool it became an entirely different issue. They are literally the converts of standard in this regard.lolcubes wrote:
Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
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Converts are not Taiko maps. It's a relict of old times when taiko was only a mod and had too less maps. That was 7~8 years ago. If people want hard maps, they can make them.
Playing converts is a skill in taiko, whether you like it or not. Im just saying that particular one is EXTREMELY underweighted. I think it is just a broken rating. It has 280 bpm 500 note kdddk streams. How is that not impressive to do?
If you can even pass that map, it is genuinely more impressive to me than getting an S on deaf mutes. Sorry, but we maybe need to think some about converts. Yes, they are not intended for taiko, but neither are converts for ctb and they seem happy with those. Playing 1/8 is a skill, doing 280 1/4 bpm is a skill.
I know he missed like 84 times but when it is something like that (for reference id call it about 9.5 sr in our system), maybe we need to reward like at least 300+ pp for passing it. Just speaking hypothetically, dont want to spark some drama.
If you can even pass that map, it is genuinely more impressive to me than getting an S on deaf mutes. Sorry, but we maybe need to think some about converts. Yes, they are not intended for taiko, but neither are converts for ctb and they seem happy with those. Playing 1/8 is a skill, doing 280 1/4 bpm is a skill.
I know he missed like 84 times but when it is something like that (for reference id call it about 9.5 sr in our system), maybe we need to reward like at least 300+ pp for passing it. Just speaking hypothetically, dont want to spark some drama.
About the last sentence of mine, one can say that we could give a meaning to those maps. But at the end, in my opinion, it doesn't change the fact that there is no idea behind these beatmaps. And personaly I wouldn't like to put such maps equal or near to taiko specific maps(pp wise), since that would mean, encouraging players to play them and possibly abandond real taiko maps. I do believe that concern is eligible, since we had that in the past already; people having an eye on crazy converts, playing 1/8 and later, even trying to have it partly in Taiko maps. Can't be debated about since QATs would probably stop it, but the thinking of people itself couldn't be stopped.
So yeah... even though I find some of those replays impressive and can show respect to it, so is it after all to me just random button smashing what those converts give out without significant system or anything that makes the map reasonable. Makes also authentic and hard Taiko maps just meanless to those higherplayers, beside the fact of having some more pp.
Edit: Oh, Redon ninja'd me. He even ninja'd me with the same opinion
Honestly, what would be the point of removing converts? If they are broken in the sense that you don't think they give enough pp, then just don't play them (Now if they were giving way too many pp that would be a different story entirely).
I know, at least for me, that when I first got into Taiko it was nice to already have a large selection of converted, rankable maps downloaded to help get me started and to pique my interest enough to start getting Taiko specific maps.
In terms of autoconverts not giving a lot of pp as long as the algorithm weights accuracy as much as it does then songs like apparition just won't give a lot of pp, which in the large scheme of things doesn't really affect much. The only people that would be hurt by this are the top 0.01% of players that probably wouldn't need it anyway. Is playing at 280 bpm a skill? Yes. Is being able to read a bunch of varying sv's in the same map a skill? Absolutely. Does the system need to change? Probably not. I guess the closest comparison I can think of is standard players getting ridiculous DT scores on maps like Gangsta and not netting pp from it. Yes it is absolutely impressive and a good bragging point, as was Flanks's score, but I don't see anyone complaining about those players not getting pp from it.
I know, at least for me, that when I first got into Taiko it was nice to already have a large selection of converted, rankable maps downloaded to help get me started and to pique my interest enough to start getting Taiko specific maps.
In terms of autoconverts not giving a lot of pp as long as the algorithm weights accuracy as much as it does then songs like apparition just won't give a lot of pp, which in the large scheme of things doesn't really affect much. The only people that would be hurt by this are the top 0.01% of players that probably wouldn't need it anyway. Is playing at 280 bpm a skill? Yes. Is being able to read a bunch of varying sv's in the same map a skill? Absolutely. Does the system need to change? Probably not. I guess the closest comparison I can think of is standard players getting ridiculous DT scores on maps like Gangsta and not netting pp from it. Yes it is absolutely impressive and a good bragging point, as was Flanks's score, but I don't see anyone complaining about those players not getting pp from it.
Sure, converts are a skill. However it is a niche skill that doesn't fit within defining a taiko player's ability overall.
A lot of converts are memorizing SV changes and 1/8 stream hitting. Should that give a lot of pp? ...Not really. Should it be removed? No (Though I don't think many argued for that)! Currently the problem being faced is that a map can be really difficult but have an underwhelming reward, whereas another map can be very simple but yield a huge reward.
I don't think converts should be removed, but if they are proving to be more rewarding than actual taiko maps on an unrealistic scale, changes might need to be made...
.....However is that the current issue? Most top players only have very few converts as their top plays. And most plays with nothing but them are nowhere near the top. I don't think converts on taiko are an issue with the exception of songs like Holy Orders, The song with that green dude, T-T-Techno etc.
If they one day overcome taiko maps, then of course action should be taken, but for now, it's just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of taiko ranks.
A lot of converts are memorizing SV changes and 1/8 stream hitting. Should that give a lot of pp? ...Not really. Should it be removed? No (Though I don't think many argued for that)! Currently the problem being faced is that a map can be really difficult but have an underwhelming reward, whereas another map can be very simple but yield a huge reward.
I don't think converts should be removed, but if they are proving to be more rewarding than actual taiko maps on an unrealistic scale, changes might need to be made...
.....However is that the current issue? Most top players only have very few converts as their top plays. And most plays with nothing but them are nowhere near the top. I don't think converts on taiko are an issue with the exception of songs like Holy Orders, The song with that green dude, T-T-Techno etc.
If they one day overcome taiko maps, then of course action should be taken, but for now, it's just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of taiko ranks.
Yeah, well, the point of the system is performance points, not skill points.Backfire wrote:
Playing converts is a skill in taiko, whether you like it or not. Im just saying that particular one is EXTREMELY underweighted. I think it is just a broken rating. It has 280 bpm 500 note kdddk streams. How is that not impressive to do?
There was a huge discussion about this already, probably in this very thread too.
People who made the system.Redon wrote:
Who is "people"?
that's an argument for doing it earlier than too late WHEN they existOzzyOzrock wrote:
If they one day overcome taiko maps, then of course action should be taken, but for now, it's just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme of taiko ranks.
You should not forget that when converts are removed from pp, they still have a ranking board and are still playable. They can compete on those specific ranking boards for the maps that are mapped in a way that would never be acceptable in taiko for good reasons. PP should only be for taiko-only maps because the general skill is based on how you play THEM, not how good you are on some non-sense convert map. We might as well add unranked non-sense taiko maps to pp because they are pretty much the same.
That's fair; there is no need for "if one day it happens, THEN we should do this to happen" situations to exist.
I guess I didn't read very far into the pp-only removal in this thread, which actually sounds nice now that I think of it. PP isn't meant to calculate for converts so it shouln't be a thing huh
I guess I didn't read very far into the pp-only removal in this thread, which actually sounds nice now that I think of it. PP isn't meant to calculate for converts so it shouln't be a thing huh
It wasn't about removing the diffs from scoreboard anyway. Just about rising pp for converts. Some people misunderstood that. But I think wemight be already done with the topic as we already discussed it (today) in #taiko:
http://osu.corin.me/logs/# #taiko - 20-05-2015
http://osu.corin.me/logs/# #taiko - 20-05-2015
I'm having deja vu.
Woah.
Woah.
Before anything else though, I'm obliged to bring up those old taikosu maps, those were actually meant to be converted
If converts are removed from the pp system, I'd like to know if specific exceptions can be implemented, haha
Anyway, just the ramblings of an old player~
If converts are removed from the pp system, I'd like to know if specific exceptions can be implemented, haha
Anyway, just the ramblings of an old player~
Well while we are on this topic I'd like to bring up this thread I saw on the reddit a few weeks ago
Converts are apparently overweighted at the low-mid level. I don't think people should be getting 100+ pp on their first time ever playing taiko but..
Converts are apparently overweighted at the low-mid level. I don't think people should be getting 100+ pp on their first time ever playing taiko but..
No this is just the eternal debate.MMzz wrote:
I'm having deja vu.
Woah.
bump.
Okay.. we all know that the pp works humble, compared to Standard mode. That mostly is caused due the fact that Taiko-converted beatmaps bring pp, and that's not even a small amount. As someone which played to 65% of the time converts I can tell that some beatmaps brings by far too much pp - it kinda gets less the higher you are but it's still notable.
I made it around to Rank 700~1000 when I played converts-only which is ridiculous. However it's long time ago and since I stopped "farming" them I dropped slowly but that's not important now. lol The main point is that converts should generally not give pp since they are for multiple reasons inappropriate for the Ranking:
Well.. other people should give their opinion to overweighted Taiko beatmaps. I just would like to see real Taiko maps being only counted into a worldwide ranking.
Okay.. we all know that the pp works humble, compared to Standard mode. That mostly is caused due the fact that Taiko-converted beatmaps bring pp, and that's not even a small amount. As someone which played to 65% of the time converts I can tell that some beatmaps brings by far too much pp - it kinda gets less the higher you are but it's still notable.
I made it around to Rank 700~1000 when I played converts-only which is ridiculous. However it's long time ago and since I stopped "farming" them I dropped slowly but that's not important now. lol The main point is that converts should generally not give pp since they are for multiple reasons inappropriate for the Ranking:
- Ridiculous Note amount (1/8) in beatmaps which do not emphasize "rhythm", examples: DJ Sharpnel - StrangeProgram [HappyMiX] and Syrsa - Mad Machine [Champion]
- Unreadable SVs, examples The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black [WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BLACK] and DJ S3RL - T-T-Techno (feat. Jesskah) [Technonationalism]
- Generally overweight convert beatmaps, examples are above, LiSA - Rising Hope (TV Size) [Skystar's extrA] and Dark PHOENiX - Green-Eyed Jealousy [Envy]
Well.. other people should give their opinion to overweighted Taiko beatmaps. I just would like to see real Taiko maps being only counted into a worldwide ranking.
Here we go again, the anti-convert crusade comes again.
Hi tom, we're posting this because a recent discussion we've had at #taiko about autoconverts being plainly broken in the current pp system. Out of this, we'll try to explain (in a logical way) why they should not be weighted at all (with a handful of exceptions).
The chat (awfully long, but I'd read it):
Apart from these, I've gathered a few myself:
Syrsa - Mad machine is broken just because of macros. Let's be honest, we don't live in a unicorn land, I recognize I am pointing fingers. After all this time, top scores are still NOT REMOVED? I mean, seriously? Basic maths and anatomy says that a normal (or even super buffed up) human being cannot do 36 DAMN CLICKS PER SECOND on those 1/8 streams.
Rog-unlimitation, Insane version. Not a single k, still overrated as hell. Some people have DTHRHDFL it for 500pp. Like, really?
Rising Hope - (Skystar's ExtrA): another broken pp-wise song
Holy Orders - (Sin): yet another one
With this we don't want to completely exclude autoconverts, they might be fun to play. But they don't measure skill of a taiko player, they don't follow ranking criteria rules for taiko, sooo... you know what comes next. I hope you understand, tom.
If I am missing something, my #taiko crusader fellas will help (I guess?)
Hi tom, we're posting this because a recent discussion we've had at #taiko about autoconverts being plainly broken in the current pp system. Out of this, we'll try to explain (in a logical way) why they should not be weighted at all (with a handful of exceptions).
The chat (awfully long, but I'd read it):
Chat in #taiko
19:01 agu: huh?
19:01 Raiden: uhu
19:02 agu: are everyone in taiko rocks now??????
19:02 Raiden: what a slep i got holy ducking christ
19:02 Raiden: I don't
19:02 Raiden: sleep*
19:03 BrambleClaw: We are all different types of rocks
19:03 BrambleClaw: The Bramble rock, the agu rock, the Raiden rock, and the OzzyOzrock
19:03 agu: I'm not a rock though
19:03 Raiden: im flacid
19:03 Raiden: :^)
19:04 agu: I guess you all think I'm so great that you all become rocks in comparison...
19:04 BrambleClaw: Yup
19:05 Raiden: agu > all
19:05 BrambleClaw: agu > all + 1
19:07 A_JOKESTER103: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3421246 the bottoms ones are D's :/
19:07 BrambleClaw: Omg what
19:07 Garpo: that map is 1/8th spam
19:08 BrambleClaw: Oh
19:08 BrambleClaw: One reason I hate converts, 1/8 spams
19:08 Raiden: stop playing converts for ducks sake
19:08 Raiden: what have ducks done to you to deserve this?
19:08 A_JOKESTER103: lol
19:09 A_JOKESTER103: converts are horrible i perfer playing them for ctb :/
19:09 Raiden: but ctb are converted correctly
19:09 Raiden: taiko converts are NOT
19:09 _verto_: ctb is different
19:09 Raiden: hi verto
19:09 A_JOKESTER103: lol
19:09 BM Vagabond: converts in ctb are great what are you talking about
19:09 _verto_: hi raiden
19:09 BrambleClaw: Oh hi vertigo
19:10 _verto_: ctb and std are sort of similar in concept
19:10 *A_JOKESTER103 is playing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/460953 Reol - +Danshi [IMT's Oni]] <Taiko>
19:10 Flaus: most taiko converts are fun imo
19:10 _verto_: taiko is like an elephant to a hadron collider
19:10 Raiden: they aren't fun
19:10 Garpo: c:
19:10 Raiden: it's all monocolour
19:10 Raiden: or k d k d k d k d k d and so on
19:10 BrambleClaw: And if it isn't, the colors switch in horrible ways
19:10 Raiden: gosh I don't even know why they are worth pp
19:11 _verto_: saying converts are fine is a huge insult to mappers
19:11 BrambleClaw: Some of them are good, but that's probably 1% of them
19:11 _verto_: just imagine you spend hours on a map and people would prefer playing converts
19:11 Raiden: 1% is a bit of a high numer
19:11 Raiden: 0,000001% I'd sayt
19:11 BrambleClaw: Loooool
19:11 Raiden: that 0,00001% includes mad machine
19:12 Raiden: just because of the amount of retardedness it has
19:12 Raiden: rip internet
19:12 Raiden: and the laughs it gives me to see its top scores
19:12 Chromoxx: seriously idk why people are all raging about converts
19:12 Raiden: because they suck
19:13 Chromoxx: some converts are also playable that is the undeniable truth
19:13 BrambleClaw: ^^^^^^^^
19:13 Chromoxx: for new players it doesnt really matter very often
19:13 BrambleClaw: I agree with Chromoxx
19:13 Raiden: never said there weren't any
19:13 Chromoxx: maps that were specifically made by taiko are and will always be better but saying converts are fine isnt an insult
19:13 Raiden: but majority of them are converted horribly
19:13 Raiden: majority = 99,99%
19:14 Chromoxx: not that high of a number
19:14 Raiden: they are supposed to be played in std, not taiko
19:14 Raiden: that's another undeniable truth though
19:14 *BrambleClaw grabs the popcorn
19:14 Chromoxx: it all depends on how much effort the standard mapper put into hitsounding and if there are any 1/8 bouncing sliders or not
19:14 BrambleClaw: This conversation is soooo contradictory, this could be a movie
19:14 Chromoxx: there are also some taikosu maps tho xD
19:14 Flaus: look at this guy forcing his opinion on others
19:14 Raiden: taikosu maps are an exception
19:15 BrambleClaw: taikosu? I thought about doing that and thought I was being original ;w;
19:15 Chromoxx: yeah and there are also quite a few standard maps that are hitsounded well and therefore play fine in converts
19:15 Flaus: I personally find flying notes, large notes in streams, 1/8, and high sv fun
19:15 Chromoxx: but those are only maps where the mapper gave enough firetrucks to hitsound it properly
19:15 Chromoxx: and that also deserves props
19:15 *Garpo popcorns
19:16 Flaus: you better share
19:16 A_JOKESTER103: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3421293 this map is good but too many big circles blocking the little ones
19:16 Raiden: thing is
19:16 *Chromoxx is playing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/420951 ginkiha - EOS [Hyper]] <Taiko> +Hidden
19:16 Raiden: taiko mapping has its very own ranking rules
19:17 Chromoxx: this diff works really well in taiko
19:17 Chromoxx: it is kinda like a muzu
19:17 Raiden: converts transgress all and every one of them
19:17 Raiden: and still get to be pp worth
19:17 Raiden: how is that possible?
19:17 Flaus: what does that have to do with converts being fun?
19:17 Raiden: did I ever say
19:17 BrambleClaw: lmao when hyper = muzu
19:17 Raiden: they weren't fun?
19:17 Raiden: they are fun, maybe for some people
19:18 _verto_: hey some people enjoy eating shit
19:18 Raiden: but they shouldn't be rankable
19:18 _verto_: who are we to judge
19:18 Raiden: not forcing an opinion
19:18 Raiden: this is not about opinion
19:18 Raiden: it's about logical facts
19:18 Flaus: let me ss this
19:19 _verto_: in a way you are forcing your shit down our throat for opposing that we take out the converts out of the pp system similary to TAG4 maps
19:19 A_JOKESTER103: Converts map so horrible that its really hard to play but people who get SS on those maps idk what to think :/
19:19 _verto_: I wonder why tom never replied on his ask when I suggested exactly the same thing
19:19 Flaus: http://gyazo.com/289231f37cb957aa516bcdfb5b24801c
19:19 Flaus: ??
19:20 Raiden: not forcing shit on anyone's throat
19:20 Chromoxx: it still requires enough skill to get pp on a lot of converts (not talking about rog unlimitation tho)
19:20 Flaus: yes you are
19:20 Raiden: just stating my opinion about a ducking logical fact lol
19:20 Raiden: nope, im not
19:20 _Gezo_: >when i said earlier this day on #osumania that #taiko still debates on ACs
19:20 _Gezo_: t o t a l l y c a l l e d i t
19:20 _verto_: juggling 4 balls for 2 minutes requires skill too but you won't get taiko pp for it
19:20 Raiden: I don't know whether verto's on my side or against me
19:20 Raiden: you start to be like a woman. LET ME UNDERSTAND YOU OMG
19:21 BrambleClaw: He's both and he's neither
19:21 Chromoxx: juggling has nothing to do with clicking the right keys to the beat
19:21 _verto_: converts are not taiko, it's like saying handball and basketball are the same because both are played with a ball and your hands
19:21 _Gezo_: oh hey there's the hito
19:21 Raiden: let's not throw sarcasm please, let's keep it as a polite conversation
19:21 Flaus: how can you say that?
19:21 Raiden: we're #taiko, not #spanish
19:21 Chromoxx: converts are still taiko, the quality is just lacking for most of them
19:22 OnosakiHito: Hello
19:22 _Gezo_: https://twitter.com/Hydaen/status/623542266183991296 do you think this is the most relatable tweet ever
19:22 Raiden: lmfao
19:22 Raiden: I haven't got anything qualified, soooooooo
19:22 BrambleClaw: Ono, last night I had a dream that you tuned out me for being too quiet in #taiko
19:23 Raiden: I think Ono was very clear about this convert-stuff on the forums
19:23 Raiden: but still the devs won't just listen to us lol
19:23 _verto_: even if we get to a conclusion tom won't do shit
19:23 _verto_: because he clearly knows more about taiko than us
19:23 _Gezo_: First unrank FL then we can talk about converts
19:23 _Gezo_: >_>
19:23 Chromoxx: seriously the converts probably shouldnt be ranked
19:24 Chromoxx: but there is no valid reason for everyone to lose their minds about it
19:24 Chromoxx: i mean who even cares if some people get pp by playing spam maps?
19:24 Raiden: ah FL, the good old FL
19:24 OnosakiHito: If you have any problem with the current pp system and how it is handled, please rais your concerns here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/181852
19:24 _Gezo_: nobody from top 100 I thinik
19:24 Flaus: exactly, who even cares about pp?
19:24 _Gezo_: Only 4-digit scrubs cry over converts
19:24 Flaus: I think it has been established that pp doesn't mean very much
19:24 Raiden: gezo I hate you
19:24 Raiden: I'm 7 ranks away from being 3 digit
19:24 OnosakiHito: We are better off if we give examples why stuff doesn't work. If you gus can have some kind of... compliation of examples, Tom could check that.
19:25 Chromoxx: i mean if someone is good at spamming high density notes then let them do that and get pp for it
19:25 OnosakiHito: And for me, I could contact him about it, too.
19:25 BrambleClaw: Come on guys, rais your concerns
19:25 _Gezo_: Ono : ACs won't get unranked ever
19:25 OnosakiHito: Asuming he wouldn't change it is wrong.
19:25 OnosakiHito: :p
19:25 Raiden: rog-unlimitation Ono
19:25 Raiden: I'll just say that
19:25 OnosakiHito: Don't tell me.
19:25 _Gezo_: The only thing that was ever unnkraed to pp was TAG4
19:25 _verto_: I already raised the arguement that converts are literally like TAG4 maps
19:25 _Gezo_: and it took a WHILE.
19:25 Raiden: DTHRHDFL it
19:25 Raiden: it's easy as hell
19:25 _verto_: he unranked TAG4 maps but doesn't give a shit about converts
19:25 Raiden: what's it worth? 450 pp?
19:25 _verto_: what kind of conclusion should I draw from that?
19:25 OnosakiHito: Post in the thread and give some reasons. Make it clear to him what it means to have converts = taiko
19:26 Raiden: I'll do
19:26 OnosakiHito: If one or two posts are not enough, maybe 20 posts will do it.
19:26 Raiden: but I'll have to gather some examples
19:26 Raiden: someone wanna do that with me?
19:26 Chromoxx: if its easy as hell why do only top players have that then raiden?
19:26 BrambleClaw: Ono best redname 2015
19:26 OnosakiHito: And be sure that even BNs or QATs might support it if the reasons are well found.
19:26 Chromoxx: like seriously
19:26 _Gezo_: Honestly
19:26 Raiden: chromoxx
19:26 OnosakiHito: (BNs and QATs on taiko side I mean)
19:26 Raiden: because they know it's a bullshit map
19:26 Raiden: and probably don't want to infect their top scores
19:26 _Gezo_: I ducking hate how every 2 weeks there's a scrub who can't FC a 280pp map who cries over how unjust it is to play converts
19:26 Chromoxx: if it were so easy there would be way more people who have it
19:27 OnosakiHito: Raiden did the first move, anyone who is interested, please help him with the compilation.
19:27 OnosakiHito: Once you have a list, we can go further.
19:27 Raiden: top players have always been top players
19:27 Raiden: and very few of them have converts as their top scores
19:27 Stefan: Are 1/8 Maps mentioned?
19:27 _Gezo_: Do I need to say that Taiko Time is overrated ?
19:27 Chromoxx: uhm raiden
19:27 Chromoxx: very many do infact
19:27 Raiden: SPECIALLY 1/8 maps
19:27 _Gezo_: Do I need to say that Closet Otaku is overrated ?
19:27 Raiden: yup, that technonationalism...
19:28 Arrival: Holy Orders ?
19:28 _Gezo_: The list is even more endless for Taiko maps.
19:28 Chromoxx: mew104 is one of the best players i know and he has many convert scores
19:28 Raiden: that, too
19:28 Arrival: Rising Hope ?
19:28 Flaus: it's not like anyone can play 1/8 maps
19:28 Chromoxx: that doesnt mean he doesnt deserve his pp ranking though
19:28 Raiden: Mad machine?
19:28 Raiden: kek
19:28 Chromoxx: mad machine deserves its fking star rating
19:28 OnosakiHito: Gezo, if it is endless, why no list has been made? :p
19:28 Chromoxx: if you arent lovesmacking
19:28 _Gezo_: Because it's endless
19:28 Raiden: humanly impossible
19:29 OnosakiHito: I can understand all your rage very well. But at this very moment, raging abou it doesn't help.
19:29 Stefan: Mad Machine should not give any PP
19:29 Raiden: we're not raging Ono
19:29 _Gezo_: Ono I'm not raging
19:29 Raiden: we're discussing
19:29 OnosakiHito: Because no changes will be made if you keep it in #taiko
19:29 Arrival: Converts should not give any pp that's all :D
19:29 _Gezo_: This just throws me away to see that this is the only discussion that goes on
19:29 Raiden: meh
19:29 _verto_: TAG4s deserve rating as well since EZ players spent shitload of time practising it but guess what - they got unranked because they should never been ranked in the first place
19:29 Chromoxx: i agree with that but there is no valid reason for everyone to lose their minds over it
19:29 *Arrival throws away Gezo
19:29 Raiden: i see this is going nowhere lol
19:29 Flaus: but nothing happens in #taiko so this is great
19:29 _Gezo_: Can't we just directly bother him and talk in front of him
19:29 Stefan: that probably never happens, Arrival
19:29 Raiden: let's go to Ono's post llol
19:29 _Gezo_: Well
19:30 Raiden: tom's* post
19:30 _Gezo_: Go back in 2011 and before
19:30 _Gezo_: You'll probably understand why converts are ranked
19:30 OnosakiHito: Well, I wanted to emphasize it a bit. But I guess you are right. But still, in my opinion discussing it here has no meaning since everyone of us knows what the problem kinda is. What we rather have to do is compling a list and posting in thread until Tom sees "oh, maybe it isn't good for real."
19:30 _Gezo_: He's got to fix the exponential pp growth first
19:30 OnosakiHito: He just wants to a lot of arguments, since he can't base thse system on single persons.
19:30 Arrival: Okay then let's go
19:30 _Gezo_: He said "nothing should be worth 1000pp ever"
19:30 OnosakiHito: Which in all honest, at a certain degree is understandable.
19:31 Raiden: well to be honest
19:31 Stefan: Many people agree that converts should not weight in Taiko
19:31 _Gezo_: guess what, maniera gives well over 1200
19:31 Stefan: or am I wrong? :P
19:31 Raiden: star rating in taiko is broken
19:31 Stefan: and also I believe that Tom knows that already.
19:31 Raiden: that's the first concern we have i think lol
19:31 Raiden: he probably does
19:31 _Gezo_: Tom is well aware of that issue
19:31 _verto_: it's not broken it's just really off the mark
19:31 OnosakiHito: If he would know that, he would have changed that already.
19:31 Raiden: but #taiko community is too small to even give a damn
19:31 _verto_: taiko has the second largest playerbase in osu please
19:31 Stefan: you know
19:31 OnosakiHito: Though, even changing isn't that simple. Which is why he needs "data" or peoples opinion.
19:31 Raiden: verto
19:31 Stefan: I don't mind the Star Rating, really.
19:31 Chromoxx: uhm verto
19:31 OnosakiHito: Last post was 2 months ago.
19:32 Raiden: however, many of these players are japanese
19:32 Chromoxx: that would be mania
19:32 Stefan: It's extremely hard to balance that for good.
19:32 Raiden: and cannot english, and are shy, or whatever
19:32 Nyan: too small right
19:32 _Gezo_: It's impossible to balance that correctly
19:32 Stefan: But disable the gain of pp at converts should be self-explained.
19:32 _Gezo_: If you buff streams, bullshit stuff like shinsekai or stamina maps like RDeathsquad will explode it
19:32 _verto_: since when, also mania players just play pp then go back to whatever rhythm game they came from
19:33 Raiden: look, this guy
19:33 Raiden: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/musuka-barusu
19:33 OnosakiHito: @Stefan Gezo: Don't get me wrong, but would you please stop walking in circles and do something? :P
19:33 _Gezo_: I need to talk to Tom
19:33 Raiden: SS'd DTHRHDFL rog unlimitation
19:33 OnosakiHito: You say stuff which everyone of us knows.
19:33 _Gezo_: but yeah
19:33 Raiden: 500pp for it
19:33 OnosakiHito: JUst do finally something.
19:33 Raiden: I was replying to the post right now Ono
19:33 Raiden: just trying to get some good examples
19:33 _Gezo_: Raiden : If you look at dialga's twitter
19:33 OnosakiHito: HL the **** out of tom in the thread.
19:33 _Gezo_: You know what shit he's at
19:34 Raiden: I don't see twitter much often , lemme check
19:34 _Gezo_: There's a tweet that will appear like 20541653240324 times in his profile
19:34 _Gezo_: @dialgadu77
19:34 Arrival: "Daily Reminder to ban him"
19:34 _Gezo_: There's a thing to say
19:34 OnosakiHito: "Daily reminder to ban him"
19:34 Raiden: ah LOL
19:34 Arrival: + link to barusu profile
19:34 Raiden: and many others
19:34 _Gezo_: 1. Converts have weird stuff I admit it
19:34 Raiden: I've seen people with an A 95% in a muzu as their #2 score
19:34 _Gezo_: However they're a tiny percentage compared to the rest of the maps
19:35 Raiden: and 500pp worth converted as #1 score
19:35 Raiden: I mean what the hell?
19:35 _Gezo_: Maybe 1 or 2% of the whole map base is overrated
19:35 Arrival: So should we all write on the appropriate topic so Tom sees it ?
19:35 Arrival: If that's the case let's do it now
19:35 _Gezo_: 2. That will also affect GOOD converts
19:36 Raiden: I was already replying
19:36 BrambleClaw: All I can think is who the hell is Tom
19:36 Arrival: But these 1-2%, Gezo, can give 500pp to someone
19:36 _Gezo_: No matter how you put it, there will always be a map which translates decently to Taiko (I said decently)
19:36 Arrival: So that's completely broken
19:36 Raiden: so if you reply too, that'll make our voice louder tho
19:36 Raiden: pp is not the matter, Arrival
19:36 Arrival: Well it is in a certain way
19:36 Raiden: actually yes
19:36 _Gezo_: 3. The overratedness of such maps are based on the PATTERNS.
19:37 Raiden: pp is SUPPOSED to measure a player's skill on that game mode
19:37 Arrival: if it didn't give pp nobody would play them and we wouldn't give a damn
19:37 Raiden: maybe playing converts is a skill itself
19:37 _Gezo_: If you kill away 1/8 double notes in Technonationalism, I bet the star rating will deflate
19:37 Chromoxx: all i can think right now is why is everybody losing their minds as if this was the end of the world when all that is happened is nothing changing since 2011
19:37 _Gezo_: By probably 2 WHOLE stars
19:37 _Gezo_: And I could say "at least".
19:37 Raiden: or more
19:37 Raiden: I'd say even 3
19:37 Raiden: or 4
19:37 _Gezo_: 4 is too much
19:37 Chromoxx: anyway gtg now
19:37 Arrival: We are not losing our minds NOW, we're just bringing the discussion
19:37 _Gezo_: The end part is already 4 stars
19:38 Arrival: Oh bye
19:38 Raiden: and those 1/8 are the result of sliders
19:38 _Gezo_: so it could be something like 4.75
19:38 Chromoxx: hf circlejerking about converts tho xD always fun to watch
19:38 BrambleClaw: Cya Google Chromoxx
19:38 _Gezo_: Imagine a taiko map with that
19:38 Raiden: in what kind of world is a slider a 1/8 note?
19:38 _Gezo_: 1. It would be disqualified and Ono would do the post
19:38 Raiden: that's somewhat the point i wanted to get
19:38 _Gezo_: Raiden : A slider converts to many notes if it lasts less than 2 whole beats
19:38 Raiden: that's why it's broken
19:38 _Gezo_: Nah
19:39 OnosakiHito: I have a simple opinion about converts:
19:39 OnosakiHito: Converts are not Taiko maps hence, they shouldn't be weighted.
19:39 _Gezo_: 1/8 kicksliders (I think they are KS) are the ones
19:39 taiko_boom: can anyone help me with taiko
19:39 taiko_boom: need an explanation
19:39 Raiden: @Ono besides, you guys made specific rules for mapping
19:39 BrambleClaw: Well that wouldn't be entirely fair I don't think Ono
19:39 _Gezo_: They're incriminated in rising hope
19:39 Raiden: converts transgress every single one of them
19:39 _Gezo_: Rog Unlimitation in some extent, even though it's 1/4
19:39 BrambleClaw: Like, wouldn't it be better to have it weighted, just a lot less than normal taiko maps?
19:39 Flaus: removing pp gain from converts can kill a player's incentive to play, considering how often taiko maps are ranked
19:39 taiko_boom: what does empty star and full star mean in tako
19:40 Raiden: nope, weighted 0
19:40 _Gezo_: Weighted at most half would be a good compromise
19:40 BrambleClaw: But why 0?
19:40 Raiden: sorry
19:40 BrambleClaw: That's so unreasonable
19:40 agu: empty star and full star?
19:40 _verto_: because pp should be given to ranked taiko maps
19:40 agu: what do you mean
19:40 BrambleClaw: Because even though it's not a taiko map, it's still a map
19:40 Raiden: weighted 0* with a handful of exceptions
19:40 taiko_boom: y
19:40 _verto_: converts shouldn't be ranked because they don't fit the ranking criteria
19:40 BrambleClaw: And sometimes they can be really hard to pass
19:40 Raiden: that's just it
19:40 _Gezo_: "removing pp gain from converts can kill a player's incentive to play"
19:40 _verto_: hence they shouldn't give pp
19:41 _Gezo_: Weighing 0 will give 0 no matter what
19:41 Raiden: there are rules for taiko mapping
19:41 taiko_boom: red circle with empty star in middle
19:41 Raiden: you do an 1/8 spam in your taiko map? insta-DQ'd
19:41 taiko_boom: and another red circle with filled star
19:41 BrambleClaw: My opinion is that they should be weighted less, or at least change the weighting system for taiko converts
19:41 _Gezo_: So a player who thinks he's getting good but isn't aware of taiko maps will just stop playing
19:41 Raiden: why allow them in autoconverts?
19:41 Tsukushi-chan: Uh.
19:41 Tsukushi-chan: What's happening?
19:41 Arrival: Nice stuf
19:41 Arrival: Just sit
19:41 Arrival: and watch
19:42 _Gezo_: Because he could play Oni but has 0pp
19:42 _Gezo_: lel
19:42 _Gezo_: And even that
19:42 Raiden: I have a guy here in spain
19:42 Tsukushi-chan: Lol.
19:42 Raiden: that used to be #1 in ppv1
19:42 _Gezo_: Can the pp system gather whether it's a convert or not? LOL
19:42 Raiden: just by playing converts
19:42 Raiden: when you saw him play a simple 3,5 star oni
19:42 Raiden: you would cringe
19:42 _Gezo_: Raiden : ppv1 wasn't about performance at all
19:43 Raiden: it matters not
19:43 _Gezo_: It was about where you placed
19:43 Tsukushi-chan: I agree!
19:43 Raiden: he bragged everywhere
19:43 Nardoxyribonucleic: ppv1 was about popularity and place
19:43 Raiden: about how he was #1 in spain
19:43 _Gezo_: if you collected #1s you were basically #1
19:43 Raiden: and called the rest of us trash
19:43 Raiden: while just playing converts lol
19:43 Tsukushi-chan: Lol.
19:43 Tsukushi-chan: GG
19:43 _Gezo_: Do you remember the name ?
19:43 Raiden: I do, but not gonna call names
19:43 Raiden: I respect privacy
19:43 _Gezo_: PM it to me
19:43 Raiden: also, he's reformed now, he's playing onis
19:44 _Gezo_: I might have heard of him
19:44 _verto_: we had a guy who was #1 in hungary as well just by playing muzus and converts but he didn't give a shit at least and kept low profile
19:44 _verto_: still it frustrated me
19:44 _Gezo_: I used to be FR #1 at least once in every ranking system
19:44 Flaus: then play converts and gain pp?
19:44 Arrival: In France we got one like that too but he stopped playing
19:44 Arrival: He was like #400 justeby playing converted
19:44 Arrival: + maps
19:44 1miko1: there will never be a system which truly illustrated the skill of a player
19:44 _Gezo_: Hidekisan30 iirc
19:44 Raiden: let's post in tom's post guys
19:45 _Gezo_: >postception
19:45 Garpo: n1doking is a prime example of how you can abuse converts
19:45 Raiden: yo dawg
19:45 Raiden: i heard you like posts
19:45 OnosakiHito: Talking to him.
19:45 _Gezo_: However don't go and yell about CONVERTS NO PP
19:45 Raiden: so I put a post in your post so you can read while you read
19:45 OnosakiHito: You make the post please.
19:45 _Gezo_: We should find the best compromise first
19:45 OnosakiHito: brb
19:45 Raiden: I will
19:45 Raiden: promise
19:45 Raiden: but i need some help
19:46 Tsukushi-chan: So, wait.
19:46 _Gezo_: Because a player can not necessarily be aware of Taiko maps.
19:46 Raiden: no no, not gonna yell
19:46 Raiden: just gonna state logical facts
19:46 Flaus: it's true
19:46 Tsukushi-chan: Is the argument about converts giving no pp or about some converts giving too much/
19:46 Raiden: about why converts should just not be weighed whatsoever
19:46 Raiden: second one Tsukushi
19:46 Raiden: and give first hand examples
19:46 _Gezo_: about converts being broken
19:46 _Gezo_: more like
19:46 Flaus: everyone knows converts give too much pp
19:47 _Gezo_: because as I said, there are only few maps who give WAY too much
19:47 Raiden: how could I save chatlog?
19:47 Raiden: done
19:47 _Gezo_: also if you didn't have VANESSA [Extra]
19:47 Raiden: /savelog it was
- 1. PP system is supposedly made to measure a person's skill on a game mode. Weighing autoconverts means people can reach higher ranks while objectively not actually knowing how to play Taiko.
- 2. We have our own set of ranking rules at the ranking criteria for Taiko. Vast majority of autoconverts transgress all and every single one of them, so why even allow them??
- 3. This might seem like a random rant, but it is not. Many people have abused autoconvert style (which isn't even static) to use macros since there is no patterning whatsoever (people SS'ing DTHDHRFL Insane maps for 500pp, are you serious?)
List of (some) overrated maps
19:48 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561
19:48 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/202965
19:48 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/93236
19:48 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95733
19:48 Raiden: got all of them
19:48 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/655794
19:48 Raiden: those are the examples right?
19:48 _Gezo_: not finished yet
19:48 Raiden: alkright
19:48 Raiden: keep them going
19:49 _Gezo_: if you took my perfo list though
19:49 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/157321
19:49 Raiden: alright, let me check lol
19:49 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/100981
19:49 _Gezo_: you'll just need to savelog
19:49 _Gezo_: don't need to check everything
19:49 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/40034
19:49 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/400238
19:50 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51993
19:50 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/56549 -> I doubt this one would be too broken
19:50 Raiden: done
19:51 _Gezo_: and with this map I passed below 300pp
19:51 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1147 meh
19:52 _Gezo_: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/43582 :V this one is a bit too op
19:52 _Gezo_: don't include it but https://osu.ppy.sh/b/167819 this one is actually underrated
19:52 Raiden: kek
19:52 _Gezo_: it was actually painful to play it
19:53 _Gezo_: I almost lost my left hand to it
19:53 _Gezo_: you can savelog
19:54 Raiden: lol
19:54 Raiden: done
Apart from these, I've gathered a few myself:
Syrsa - Mad machine is broken just because of macros. Let's be honest, we don't live in a unicorn land, I recognize I am pointing fingers. After all this time, top scores are still NOT REMOVED? I mean, seriously? Basic maths and anatomy says that a normal (or even super buffed up) human being cannot do 36 DAMN CLICKS PER SECOND on those 1/8 streams.
Rog-unlimitation, Insane version. Not a single k, still overrated as hell. Some people have DTHRHDFL it for 500pp. Like, really?
Rising Hope - (Skystar's ExtrA): another broken pp-wise song
Holy Orders - (Sin): yet another one
With this we don't want to completely exclude autoconverts, they might be fun to play. But they don't measure skill of a taiko player, they don't follow ranking criteria rules for taiko, sooo... you know what comes next. I hope you understand, tom.
If I am missing something, my #taiko crusader fellas will help (I guess?)
Dear Tom, my concern regarding taiko converts are the same. Since TAG4s are removed from the standard pp pool it's only natural that we remove converts as well, since they are the taiko counterparts of them. They don't fit the ranking criteria, they weren't meant to be ranked and they can be abused for ridiculous amounts of rather undeserved pp. Sure we aren't getting 1k+ pp from it, but them dominating the top pp gians from rank 1 to 100,000 is rather concerning.
^ this doeMMzz wrote:
I'm having deja vu.
Woah.
Though, deleting converts away from pp makes no sense at all for one reason : A player may not be aware of Taiko maps at all, and preventing them to get any pp is beyond "let's all assume they all know about taiko maps". New players don't play what they are supposed to, they play what they want to. To me, a fair compromise is to weigh them at most half what they're worth (that is still a lot less, consider tasuke's 618 performance to be only at most 309 after the nerf).
I pointed out issues that makes the converts actually overrated in Raiden's log:
19:34 _Gezo_: 1. Converts have weird stuff I admit it
19:35 _Gezo_: Maybe 1 or 2% of the whole map base is overrated
19:35 _Gezo_: 2. That will also affect GOOD converts
19:36 _Gezo_: No matter how you put it, there will always be a map which translates decently to Taiko (I said decently)
19:36 _Gezo_: 3. The overratedness of such maps are based on the PATTERNS.
19:37 _Gezo_: If you kill away 1/8 double notes in Technonationalism, I bet the star rating will deflate
I could make a list of what inflates SR, some maps included and given do have these gimmicks. Raiden's log with the maps I gave are all converts, but starting from FASCINATION MAX they are more to the underrated side (Phase 1 is a hand killer for nothing basically).
Gimmicks inflating SR that aren't normally found in Taiko maps : 1/8 or 1/4 double notes. They're inflating the SR so badly this is why the converts' discussion is on, in fact. The other gimmick inflating SR is "3-based patterns", such as kddkddk... or dkkdkkd... but they are found in Taiko maps. The last is 1/6 and 1/4 notes, but we don't find this in converts.
Here's an idea. What if there's filtter that by default hides pp values of converts.
also pp ammount of converts should be lowered by 30-50%
also pp ammount of converts should be lowered by 30-50%
Newer player do not bother for ranking when they just played their 50th map, they're not restricted from playing converts. They just wouldn't be "competitive" anymore. Also I saw enough people asking a lot about Taiko (beside of the stupid "how2Taiko" thing.) and would for sure asks a bit more about pp. And newer player will discover real Taiko maps, whether if too hard or not._Gezo_ wrote:
Though, deleting converts away from pp makes no sense at all for one reason : A player may not be aware of Taiko maps at all, and preventing them to get any pp is beyond "let's all assume they all know about taiko maps". New players don't play what they are supposed to, they play what they want to. To me, a fair compromise is to weigh them at most half what they're worth (that is still a lot less, consider tasuke's 618 performance to be only at most 309 after the nerf).
few converted maps are overrated.
for example, in my BP,
Personally, Green-Eyed+EZNC" is so easier than "Hades+NC".
pp amount of converts should be lowered by 20% (465pp×0.8=372pp) i think.
btw,
std: DragonForce - The Last Journey Home+HR SR:7.21 607pp (_index)
CTB: Halozy - Genryuu Kaiko+HDHR SR:7.52 894pp (Spectator)
mania: Yuuna Sasara feat. Tai no Kobone - Imperishable Night 2006 SR:7.11 860pp (jhlee0133)
Taiko: Soleily - Renatus+HDNC SR:8.2 529pp (me)
why...
for example, in my BP,
Personally, Green-Eyed+EZNC" is so easier than "Hades+NC".
btw,
std: DragonForce - The Last Journey Home+HR SR:7.21 607pp (_index)
CTB: Halozy - Genryuu Kaiko+HDHR SR:7.52 894pp (Spectator)
mania: Yuuna Sasara feat. Tai no Kobone - Imperishable Night 2006 SR:7.11 860pp (jhlee0133)
Taiko: Soleily - Renatus+HDNC SR:8.2 529pp (me)
why...
pp values are different cross game modes and that's fine.
I would agree on a flat 20% reduction on converts as well, maybe even 25%.
As someone else said, since tag maps don't give pp, taiko converts kinda fall in thesame similar boat. Reducing the pp gained from converts would be fine.
(my #1 rank is a convert which I only played once lol, and is so far ahead of everything else it's not even funny ;_;)
I would agree on a flat 20% reduction on converts as well, maybe even 25%.
As someone else said, since tag maps don't give pp, taiko converts kinda fall in the
(my #1 rank is a convert which I only played once lol, and is so far ahead of everything else it's not even funny ;_;)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95733?m=1
My 220pp play of this required barely any effort/skill to do. I never got why converts even give pp to begin with tbh.
My 220pp play of this required barely any effort/skill to do. I never got why converts even give pp to begin with tbh.
this map is one of the 3 most common examples on "lol, doubles"
Converts are not made to be played in taiko and many of them are unplayable. Reducing the pp they give won't fix that problem.lolcubes wrote:
pp values are different cross game modes and that's fine.
I would agree on a flat 20% reduction on converts as well, maybe even 25%.
As someone else said, since tag maps don't give pp, taiko converts kinda fall in thesamesimilar boat. Reducing the pp gained from converts would be fine.
(my #1 rank is a convert which I only played once lol, and is so far ahead of everything else it's not even funny ;_;)
Some taiko maps are overrated too, it's the star rating algorithm's fault. Comp - Kyoai is overrated because of the famous kddkddk pattern that you find in most overrated converts, and 1/8 doubles make the star rating of Taiko Time (Inner Oni) higher than it should, like in the Rising Hope convert.
The sole fact that converts are not made to be played in taiko and often contain unplayable/unreadable elements should suffice to justify the removal of the pp they give, in my opinion. They should simply be played for fun.
Also, something everyone seems to overlook is that standard maps use higher ODs than taiko maps. ODs in taiko are stricter though, and this often signify an increase in pp gains, even if the map doesn't feel hard to play.
I agree, but every time removal was suggested, it was declined.
Since TAG4 maps have been removed from pp in standard, converts should be removed too, it's a sound logic if you take into account that there are plenty of converts which are easy to A with shit accuracy and high combo to get insane pp, however since all suggestions have been declined, a flat pp penalty is the 2nd best thing.
Since TAG4 maps have been removed from pp in standard, converts should be removed too, it's a sound logic if you take into account that there are plenty of converts which are easy to A with shit accuracy and high combo to get insane pp, however since all suggestions have been declined, a flat pp penalty is the 2nd best thing.
Is there somewhere I can find the reasons why all suggestions have been declined and if they still apply to now?lolcubes wrote:
I agree, but every time removal was suggested, it was declined.
Since TAG4 maps have been removed from pp in standard, converts should be removed too, it's a sound logic if you take into account that there are plenty of converts which are easy to A with shit accuracy and high combo to get insane pp, however since all suggestions have been declined, a flat pp penalty is the 2nd best thing.
Also, the current problem is not how much pp converts give, but the fact that they give ANY pp. I don't understand the point of a pp penalty. What does that even fix? Why would it be accepted to reduce pp but not remove it? What reasoning is behind that?
Are we trying to reduce pp farm or encourage new taiko players (and active) to play taiko maps? Those were specially made for them in the first place.
Let's say that this is currently under some kind of observation. Whether current examples of converts are enough or not I don't know, but it doesn't hurt to provide more for the moment to have a more refined and fasten statement.
I agree
I want you to when add EZ, almost without pp. And I want you to reduce std map pp.
I think SV change can be the factor too.
Seems SV change in High BPM song is hard.
Seems SV change in High BPM song is hard.
@ Prophecy:
Tom94 wrote:
Unfortunately the infrastructure of taiko pp still doesn't really have a measure for scrolling speed, so I can't easily add a HR or HD bonus relative to scroll speed. The general consensus seems to be, that HD is worth too much right now, so I'll move it downwards a bit.
Rankings would be so much cuter with taiko maps only (⌯˃̶᷄ ﹏ ˂̶᷄⌯)
and kill EZ mod wtf, people get punished for playing a song with no mods because then they can't get a score with EZ? lmfao
and kill EZ mod wtf, people get punished for playing a song with no mods because then they can't get a score with EZ? lmfao
Oh, that's something new to me. What do you mean?OzzyOzrock wrote:
and kill EZ mod wtf, people get punished for playing a song with no mods because then they can't get a score with EZ? lmfao
Well, if you notice a lot of top players' top scores, you'll see that they often pair EZ with DT for the pp increase that comes with higher accuracy given by EZ.OnosakiHito wrote:
Oh, that's something new to me. What do you mean?OzzyOzrock wrote:
and kill EZ mod wtf, people get punished for playing a song with no mods because then they can't get a score with EZ? lmfao
I don't know the numbers exactly, but by the looks of it EZ doesn't seem to give any penalty whatsoever for being used despite lowering SV and OD. As in, it seems that the pp system reads "Player X player X song at X BPM with X accuracy", but ignores that EZ mod is used. My score can be 50% of the top score, but pp system doesn't notice, and gives me full pp.
This also means that if I am to play, say, The End of a Century with no mod, there go my chances of playing it with EZ DT and instead I have to work for my pp playing it with DT, giving me a direct disadvantage than if I would have played with EZ DT.
There actually is a penalty, but only because of lower OD (I probably could estimate it at only 10% penalty). As quoted earlier in this thread (come on how can you not consider it), SV can't be taken into account because there is nothing that can measure it.OzzyOzrock wrote:
Well, if you notice a lot of top players' top scores, you'll see that they often pair EZ with DT for the pp increase that comes with higher accuracy given by EZ.
I don't know the numbers exactly, but by the looks of it EZ doesn't seem to give any penalty whatsoever for being used despite lowering SV and OD. As in, it seems that the pp system reads "Player X player X song at X BPM with X accuracy", but ignores that EZ mod is used. My score can be 50% of the top score, but pp system doesn't notice, and gives me full pp.
This also means that if I am to play, say, The End of a Century with no mod, there go my chances of playing it with EZ DT and instead I have to work for my pp playing it with DT, giving me a direct disadvantage than if I would have played with EZ DT.