Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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Redon
I still think star ratings in the lower difficulty range are hilariously overrated. It takes an insultingly simple map to even make it below the 1.5 cutoff for a Kantan.

I made a post about this about a year ago when the new star rating calculation was introduced, but I didn't receive any response at the time. I'm not sure if the Taiko community is fine with dedicating half of every map's diff spread to the mentally handicapped or if it's just that nobody cares about easy Taiko diffs, but if you compare the difficulty of a 1.5 star Taiko map to that of a 1.5 osu!mania map, it shouldn't take too long to realize that something is terribly wrong.
MMzz
While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.

I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
Gezoda
Let me correct you a bit MMzz on your last sentence ;P

You can't even *USE 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, 7/2...)

It was a pain to fix Twitch Plays Pokemon because of that :C
Raiden

MMzz wrote:

While I don't like the current state of lower difficulties for taiko either. It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.

I used to think how you do, so I know where you are coming from. But I do agree that the star rating scale for kantan/futsuu is ridiculous. You can't even add a few simple 1/2 patterns without the star rating skyrocketing.
Not even this. Even 1/1s are overrated as heck.

I've been told in my maps (by mods) that I overmapped the Kantans and Futsuus because 1/1s. And I'm like, seriously? They're not even high BPM, gosh...
Redon

MMzz wrote:

It is better to make easier diffs that can be universally accepted, rather than what YOU think provides the proper challenge for a noobie. Easy/Normal serve the purpose of basic rhythms and learning the difference in color. That is it. There isn't really a reason for them to be more complex than they already are. Muzukashii serves as a good platform for applying your rhythm and reading abilities learned from Kantan/Futsuu into full fledged rhythms.
I understand the need for beginner maps, I'm not saying everything should be a Muzukashii or above. But as it is right now, I think what is classified as a "Futsuu" fills the beginner role just fine and if someone still needs an easier map there's always low diff exceptions and HT/EZ mod.

I converted a 1.08 star 7K mania map into a Taiko map, it turned into a 2.17 star diff. Same note density, 7 different kind of notes to learn versus 2-4.
eeezzzeee
To be fair, I think its mania that has underrated maps. If you look at all the other game modes, easy almost never has 1/2 notes, and normal will never have 1/4 triples, whereas in mania those are standard. So what I'm trying to say is we should be expecting "brain dead" maps at 1-2 star difficulty but somehow that's not the case for mania.

I'm not saying the taiko star rating is good right now though. No. lol
Redon

eeezzzeee wrote:

To be fair, I think its mania that has underrated maps. If you look at all the other game modes, easy almost never has 1/2 notes, and normal will never have 1/4 triples, whereas in mania those are standard. So what I'm trying to say is we should be expecting "brain dead" maps at 1-2 star difficulty but somehow that's not the case for mania.
Keep in mind that standard has an aiming component that is an additional challenge and distraction to newcomers, so I think it's no surprise that standard maps tend to be simpler on the rhythm/ND side than modes where you "just" press buttons.

To give another perspective on my complaint: When I switched from standard to mania about a year ago, I needed Easy diffs to teach me the absolute basics for playing 7K because there was just too much going on in Normals to even find the keys I'm supposed to press. Once I got an idea on how to read notes and play them intuitively, I was able to move on to Normals, then Hards and eventually Insanes, each one step at a time.

I think this is the way a rhythm game should challenge newcomers, Easy diffs teach you the basics, Normals and beyond are for players who went through that stage and know how to read/play at a decent level.

The first time I played Taiko, I never needed a Kantan. Maybe I skipped the Futsuus too. Easy Muzus were pretty doable. Somehow I have 2000pp even though I'm still a noob who trips over simple don/kat sequences occasionally. I know Taiko is very challenging at Onis and beyond, but I feel like everything below that is so diluted.

Giving newcomers a point of entry is important, but I don't think rhythm games should pander to them to such an extent that it provides someone who picked up the game a few minutes ago with free A and S ranks.
verto
I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.

As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.

Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
Full Tablet

Redon wrote:

I still think star ratings in the lower difficulty range are hilariously overrated. It takes an insultingly simple map to even make it below the 1.5 cutoff for a Kantan.

I made a post about this about a year ago when the new star rating calculation was introduced, but I didn't receive any response at the time. I'm not sure if the Taiko community is fine with dedicating half of every map's diff spread to the mentally handicapped or if it's just that nobody cares about easy Taiko diffs, but if you compare the difficulty of a 1.5 star Taiko map to that of a 1.5 osu!mania map, it shouldn't take too long to realize that something is terribly wrong.
For me, X star Taiko maps are harder than X star 4K osu!mania maps.

Taiko requires considerably more timing precision than mania, OD3 maps require about as much accuracy for a certain accuracy percentage as OD7 in mania (and if you use DT on OD3, the timing precision required goes beyond OD10 in mania; DT doesn't change the timing windows in mania beyond some rounding errors). Also, Taiko punishes misses more than mania.

Also, for me, Taiko maps are harder to read than osu!mania maps (with about 3000 plays, I still mess up randomly at reading colors even in 2 star maps; with 4K mania I never had that issue even when just starting playing).

I do think that 7K and 8K osu!mania lowest difficulties are underrated (learning to use ring fingers takes some time).
lolcubes
It's a matter of perspective. For example, when I started taiko, I could pass Muzukashii diffs with some effort. When I started mania, I was getting destroyed by easy diffs (7K).
We shouldn't really compare the two game modes, all they have in common is pressing the right button at the right time (and even that is questionable due to holds).

As for the star ratings, they were never really comparable cross game modes, so yeah, it's just different.
goatlife


k e k
MMzz
Joking aside that actually makes no sense. I'm your daddy has a larger note-length ratio and significantly harder patterns. So from what we are told about pp it should give much more than Holy Orders.

Oh wait. BPM. :idea::idea::idea::idea:
Backfire
Ok i'm here with a complaint.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690982
this map is actually insanely difficult, it might as well be the hardest taiko map ever, but its only 5.8* (the standard is fucking 8*) and Flanks #1 (which is fucking insane) only gave him 123 pp. I do not understand this system. Sorry.

Not mad, just saying that I don't think this system weighs some things like length and bpm. All it seemingly weighs is patterns. Hades : The Rise is harder than this map according to SR.

I think it still needs some more tweaking towards bpm and SV in taiko.

I didn't read some of the recent pages, so im probably being overly redundant.
lolcubes
92% accuracy B, that's why. SV doesn't work at all when it comes to difficulty calcs.
OnosakiHito
And if tom didn't change it, converted maps wight much less than taiko diffs.
DarkStoorM
400~ x100 is an insanely HUGE amount along with 80~ misses. 131pp for these stats is actually high, trust me. Now imagine, that people may lose ~1pp for every x100 hit, FLANKs got 384 of them (depends of course).

I have no idea how the map looks like, but since it's a convert I assume it's full of monocolored 1/8s (?). I can only guess, that full combo nomod would give around 400pp, because it's less than 6 stars, but along with the length it may end up giving like 450.
verto

_verto_ wrote:

I'm going a bit off here to address another issue.

As we know TAG4 maps now don't yield any pp, with the explanation that they weren't be rankable according to the ranking criteria.

Now, we have converts which kind of acts the same as TAG4 maps to a lesser extend. A lot of people argued in the thread that they shouldn't count toward the pp and now that TAG4 maps were removed from the pool I don't see why would you keep converts in it.
What if we just let converts go?
lolcubes
Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
verto

lolcubes wrote:

Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
Before I thought that it's a matter of opinion, so keeping them is subjective, but after TAG4s were removed from the std pp pool it became an entirely different issue. They are literally the converts of standard in this regard.
Redon

lolcubes wrote:

Was actually suggested many times already, and I guess people didn't really like the idea, though it's probably the most logical one since there are so many things you will never see in a ranked taiko map.
Who is "people"? From my experience both for Taiko and mania there are a lot of players in these threads that support the removal of autoconverts from the pp system, it's just that I never really saw a response from anyone in charge, or it used to be "every map that has a scoreboard must give pp" before tag maps stopped doing so.
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