I'm talking about converted osu maps in Taiko.
Taikosu maps are those maps.
Taikosu maps are those maps.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)
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Topic Starter
Yes, they are not weighted less. Why would they be? That's what I defended on the last few pages of discussion.OnosakiHito wrote:
I'm talking about converted osu maps in Taiko.
Taikosu maps are those maps.
Look at the examples I've posted, Haya Saitama 2000 has HR (HD and FL too but those don't give pp yet) and it gave the amount of pp you get in a normal play of a non converted eweTom94 wrote:
Yes, they are not weighted less. Why would they be? That's what I defended on the last few pages of discussion.OnosakiHito wrote:
I'm talking about converted osu maps in Taiko.
Taikosu maps are those maps.
Topic Starter
unknowwiiplayer wrote:
Look at the examples I've posted, Haya Saitama 2000 has HR (HD and FL too but those don't give pp yet) and it gave the amount of pp you get in a normal play of a non converted ewe
HR only gives a bonus to accuracy rating at the moment. The algorithm itself definitely does not favor converts over non-converts. This is solely depending on the map in your case, not on the conversion weighting. - And yes, I am aware, that the difficulty algorithm isn't perfect, it's still a work in progress.
Haya saitama is much more harder than poppin shower both sipped and accuracy wise though.
edit: talked with tom about it
Topic Starter
Could you try pointing me to which patterns exactly are harder to play and why the maps differ in difficulty? I am not an expert in Taiko and such information is very important to me, so I can improve the algorithm.cdhsausageboy wrote:
Haya saitama is much more harder than poppin shower both sipped and accuracy wise though.
Poppin' Shower has a wide variety of patterns that would require handswitching and a few 1/6, it's 175BPM and OD 5.
Haya Saitama has no difficult patterns besides a dkkkdkd but it's difficult because 250BPM and OD8.
While Haya Saitama is a beast due its speed and acc, Poppin' Shower demands reading/coordination skills.
Haya Saitama has no difficult patterns besides a dkkkdkd but it's difficult because 250BPM and OD8.
While Haya Saitama is a beast due its speed and acc, Poppin' Shower demands reading/coordination skills.
BPM is very important while measuring a beatmap's difficulty and about Haya Saitama 2000 vs Poppin' Shower, their difficulty is the same but in different aspects. Let me explain:
Haya Saitama 2000's BPM fast and it's hit window is little, it's really insane with HR but it's repetitive
and I don't know how did I get that acc in my record, I was deep in the "Oni Mode" (That's how I call when you're playing really well and do thing a lot better than normaly) [XDDDD]
Poppin' Shower's BPM isn't as fast as Haya Saitama (175 vs 250) but has complicated patterns and is not repetitive.
The diff of those 2 songs is the same, but in different aspects, Haya Saitama needs speed and acc, Poppin' Shower needs coordination and reading skills
In the authentic maps there are 2 of them that i know that requiere the player to have great skills and their difficult is the same. I'm talking about SuuHaa 2000 (Oni) and Mori no Kuma-San (Ura Oni), they requiere handswitching and reading/memory skills respectively (click song's name for download) [More authentic maps here :3 (I love them XD)]
Edit: Forgot to name this one ewe DEBSTEP! requieres another kind of reading skills, but it's not as hard as the mentioned abobe
Haya Saitama 2000's BPM fast and it's hit window is little, it's really insane with HR but it's repetitive
and I don't know how did I get that acc in my record, I was deep in the "Oni Mode" (That's how I call when you're playing really well and do thing a lot better than normaly) [XDDDD]
Poppin' Shower's BPM isn't as fast as Haya Saitama (175 vs 250) but has complicated patterns and is not repetitive.
The diff of those 2 songs is the same, but in different aspects, Haya Saitama needs speed and acc, Poppin' Shower needs coordination and reading skills
In the authentic maps there are 2 of them that i know that requiere the player to have great skills and their difficult is the same. I'm talking about SuuHaa 2000 (Oni) and Mori no Kuma-San (Ura Oni), they requiere handswitching and reading/memory skills respectively (click song's name for download) [More authentic maps here :3 (I love them XD)]
Edit: Forgot to name this one ewe DEBSTEP! requieres another kind of reading skills, but it's not as hard as the mentioned abobe
BPM doesnt mean shit if the map is neither complex or dense.unknowwiiplayer wrote:
BPM is very important while measuring a beatmap's difficulty
Oh, sure, sure, go play Sacrifice (Taikosaki) and then play it with HT and tell us if it was easier or not.Dolphin wrote:
BPM doesnt mean shit if the map is neither complex or dense.unknowwiiplayer wrote:
BPM is very important while measuring a beatmap's difficulty
Bad example, then you have the same density but at a lower BPM.unknowwiiplayer wrote:
Oh, sure, sure, go play Sacrifice (Taikosaki) and then play it with HT and tell us if it was easier or not.
A map thats 280 bpm can surely have lower density than one that is of lower BPM.
I didn't say that it's not possible The Big Black is easier than sacrifice, and the BPM are 360 vs 270 eweDolphin wrote:
Bad example, then you have the same density but at a lower BPM.unknowwiiplayer wrote:
Oh, sure, sure, go play Sacrifice (Taikosaki) and then play it with HT and tell us if it was easier or not.
A map thats 280 bpm can surely have lower density than one that is of lower BPM.
but you're taking the density considering the BPM as base or real seconds as base? ewe they're different
In Taiko BPM is beside SV the most important factor. BPM also discribes the note density by notes per seconds, which is different when comparing a low BPM song with a high one.
So does have a BPM 250 song on 2 minutes more notes than a BPM 100 song on 2 minutes.
And a monotonically pattern plays also differently on a higher BPM than on a lower one.
So wiiplayer isn't actually wrong. The ND changes. So those the difficultie of the map.
(Of course, it depends of what difficultie you are actually mapping lol)
So does have a BPM 250 song on 2 minutes more notes than a BPM 100 song on 2 minutes.
And a monotonically pattern plays also differently on a higher BPM than on a lower one.
So wiiplayer isn't actually wrong. The ND changes. So those the difficultie of the map.
(Of course, it depends of what difficultie you are actually mapping lol)
Nah, don't get me wrong, I'm not neglecting that BPM should be accounted for, but it's truly not the main factor for difficulty.
I'm the opinion it is the main factor in Taiko. Every placed pattern is effected by the BPM. Same goes to the SV, which effects the patterns directly(its density) due to the BPM.
No, since the use of 1/8 and double SV is allowed, the BPM is no longer the main factor here. It should be the timing between the notes, the amount of notes per second and the SV.
Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45205
Those things make the BPM difficulty, but it's not BPM.
As for my opinion on the difficulty, I'd say we're mixing apples and pears here. Both complexity and "bpm" create difficulty, each one on it's own way. Just think of it as 2 separate things which when combined raise the difficulty exponentially.
Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45205
Those things make the BPM difficulty, but it's not BPM.
As for my opinion on the difficulty, I'd say we're mixing apples and pears here. Both complexity and "bpm" create difficulty, each one on it's own way. Just think of it as 2 separate things which when combined raise the difficulty exponentially.
Hmmmm... I have a question to... maybe I will ask Taiko BATs at the moment:
Can you guys take a look at two maps?
1) S.S.H.Holy Orders [Sin] (270 BPM - 3:38 drain length, 5.98 star difficulty, 1429 notes)
2) t+pazolite feat. Rizna - Distorted Lovesong [Taikocalypse DX] (240 BPM - 6:28 drain length, 6.23 star difficulty, 3026 notes)
At the moment, SS nomod on Holy Orders gives 374pp, where the Lovesong SS nomod gives 326pp.
Can you guys check if it's accurate? I am just wondering.
I just tried the Holy Orders and I was able to FC it on 3rd try, but I still can't FC the Lovesong.
t+pazolite has lots of different patterns, where Holy Orders is just about single tapping (I know, depends on player speed)+ one don stream and some kddkdd~~~ (1/3? didn't check
)
Just wondering what is your opinion guys about this one.
Can you guys take a look at two maps?
1) S.S.H.Holy Orders [Sin] (270 BPM - 3:38 drain length, 5.98 star difficulty, 1429 notes)
2) t+pazolite feat. Rizna - Distorted Lovesong [Taikocalypse DX] (240 BPM - 6:28 drain length, 6.23 star difficulty, 3026 notes)
At the moment, SS nomod on Holy Orders gives 374pp, where the Lovesong SS nomod gives 326pp.
Can you guys check if it's accurate? I am just wondering.
I just tried the Holy Orders and I was able to FC it on 3rd try, but I still can't FC the Lovesong.
t+pazolite has lots of different patterns, where Holy Orders is just about single tapping (I know, depends on player speed)+ one don stream and some kddkdd~~~ (1/3? didn't check
)Just wondering what is your opinion guys about this one.
Well, I'd say, logically, that the pp system got those wrong, cause the star rating is actually higher on distorted lovesong.
o_o
No idea how pp works though.
o_o
No idea how pp works though.
could be because the pp system calculates the standard difficulty for converts >_>
As I said previously the maps that have a lots of patterns repetitions seems overrated alot.
I think holy order weight lots of pp only because of the kdd kdd kdd kdd kdd part at bpm 270
The maps that have this "issues"
Megpoid GUMI - Sorry For Being a Closet Otaku MM's Taiko
Bring Me The Horizon - Anthem [31's Taiko]
Renard - TU4AR [Nogard]
All those maps contains the repetitions thingy so it must be what increase the pp value alot.
I think holy order weight lots of pp only because of the kdd kdd kdd kdd kdd part at bpm 270
The maps that have this "issues"
Megpoid GUMI - Sorry For Being a Closet Otaku MM's Taiko
Bring Me The Horizon - Anthem [31's Taiko]
Renard - TU4AR [Nogard]
All those maps contains the repetitions thingy so it must be what increase the pp value alot.
holy orders is rated 6.86 ingame, while distorted lovesong is 6.23. holy orders also has a higher od on top of that.
Is it me or did I just get a 100 ranks drop?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/138886 Oni (bpm 151 3.12nps) is less dense than:OnosakiHito wrote:
I'm the opinion it is the main factor in Taiko. Every placed pattern is effected by the BPM. Same goes to the SV, which effects the patterns directly(its density) due to the BPM.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/358122&m=1 Muzukashii bpm 127 3.3nps
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/131806?m=1 Oni-like bpm 95 3.2nps
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91802&m=1 Muzukashii bpm 142 3.57nps
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/153417&m=1 Muzukashii bpm 128 4.24nps
BPM doesn't affect the density directly at all. Going with Dolphin on that one.
Hm, probably I misunderstood something. Nvm then.
Just a quick question for Tom:
Let's assume I played a map with no mods, let's call this "score A"
Now let's say I played that same map again but with HD, let's call this "score B"
Between the two scores, it came out to be: score A < score B
Now then, after obtaining score A my rank goes up +11 ranks
But after playing again and obtaining score B my rank goes down -6 ranks
Is this a result of HD and FL not being weighted? And if so, how long till it will be weighted, if you don't mind me asking?
Just a time frame would be fine.
Let's assume I played a map with no mods, let's call this "score A"
Now let's say I played that same map again but with HD, let's call this "score B"
Between the two scores, it came out to be: score A < score B
Now then, after obtaining score A my rank goes up +11 ranks
But after playing again and obtaining score B my rank goes down -6 ranks
Is this a result of HD and FL not being weighted? And if so, how long till it will be weighted, if you don't mind me asking?
Just a time frame would be fine.
Was actually expecting people to post that, but since nobody did, I will.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/120132
The above map is worth extreme amounts of PP, not to mention it's star rating looks really weird too. The star rating is above 6 stars for some reason, while almost any more difficult map is worth around 5.2~5.4.
Take for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/174345
This map not only is faster and much more complicated in patterns, but it's much more dense too, yet it's star rating is 5.52.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/170038 - Same thing, star rating 5.85.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/98825 - 5.44
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/101732 - 5.46
etc
The only thing that comes to mind why the star rating is that high is that at the end there are 2 really big streams that are very difficult to perform, other than that, idk.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/120132
The above map is worth extreme amounts of PP, not to mention it's star rating looks really weird too. The star rating is above 6 stars for some reason, while almost any more difficult map is worth around 5.2~5.4.
Take for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/174345
This map not only is faster and much more complicated in patterns, but it's much more dense too, yet it's star rating is 5.52.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/170038 - Same thing, star rating 5.85.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/98825 - 5.44
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/101732 - 5.46
etc
The only thing that comes to mind why the star rating is that high is that at the end there are 2 really big streams that are very difficult to perform, other than that, idk.
I thought it was already mentioned but yeah, that map is my "best performance" ._.lolcubes wrote:
Was actually expecting people to post that, but since nobody did, I will.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/120132
The above map is worth extreme amounts of PP, not to mention it's star rating looks really weird too. The star rating is above 6 stars for some reason, while almost any more difficult map is worth around 5.2~5.4.
Take for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/174345
This map not only is faster and much more complicated in patterns, but it's much more dense too, yet it's star rating is 5.52.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/170038 - Same thing, star rating 5.85.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/98825 - 5.44
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/101732 - 5.46
etc
The only thing that comes to mind why the star rating is that high is that at the end there are 2 really big streams that are very difficult to perform, other than that, idk.
HD weighting is too arbitrary imo... And too high to be honest. I think it should be about the same as HR at the moment; see thie example:
It's a pretty large difference in accuracy yet that's 5pp difference to the benefit of HD players. I honestly believe that HD and HR should be, generally speaking, equally treated. At some thresholds these mods need to be separated: Higher BPMs will benefit more to HR players (anything 230+ is difficult to HR) and lower BPMs should benefit to HD players (135 and less starts to be real tough to HD; as well as very high BPMs - I can read HD easily past 250bpm). That said, you know what happens, SV calculation kicks in and that should be the "core scrolling speed value" which will dictate whether chart A should weigh more with HR or chart B should weigh more with HD.
I don't know what you guys think.
that said: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204956?m=1
it gave me 259pp LOL
It's a pretty large difference in accuracy yet that's 5pp difference to the benefit of HD players. I honestly believe that HD and HR should be, generally speaking, equally treated. At some thresholds these mods need to be separated: Higher BPMs will benefit more to HR players (anything 230+ is difficult to HR) and lower BPMs should benefit to HD players (135 and less starts to be real tough to HD; as well as very high BPMs - I can read HD easily past 250bpm). That said, you know what happens, SV calculation kicks in and that should be the "core scrolling speed value" which will dictate whether chart A should weigh more with HR or chart B should weigh more with HD.
I don't know what you guys think.
that said: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204956?m=1
it gave me 259pp LOL
ppv1 rollback plz.......................
too confusing
too confusing
Topic Starter
Keep in mind, that for HR scrolling speed is not yet considered. With that the weightings will swing in the favor of HR again._Gezo_ wrote:
HD weighting is too arbitrary imo... And too high to be honest. I think it should be about the same as HR at the moment; see thie example:
It's a pretty large difference in accuracy yet that's 5pp difference to the benefit of HD players. I honestly believe that HD and HR should be, generally speaking, equally treated. At some thresholds these mods need to be separated: Higher BPMs will benefit more to HR players (anything 230+ is difficult to HR) and lower BPMs should benefit to HD players (135 and less starts to be real tough to HD; as well as very high BPMs - I can read HD easily past 250bpm). That said, you know what happens, SV calculation kicks in and that should be the "core scrolling speed value" which will dictate whether chart A should weigh more with HR or chart B should weigh more with HD.
I don't know what you guys think.
that said: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204956?m=1
it gave me 259pp LOL
I'll wait for further feedback to see whether the HD bonus needs to be scaled down again.
as I said, scrolling speed should be one of the core values; imagine for example 244 BPM at 0.7 SV compared to 110 BPM at 2.8 SV. The hardest to read will be the latter due to it being 308 SV1 (the other is 170.8 SV1) thus making it more rewarding for HR. The other will be rewarding for HD due to its lower scrolling speed.
is this system possible to give a bonus for OD? in that case, HR will get better.
inb4 DTTKS wrote:
is this system possible to give a bonus for OD? in that case, HR will get better.
gotta skyrocket fast
DT technically doesn't increase OD, but the relative timing window itself (decreases).XK2238 wrote:
inb4 DTTKS wrote:
is this system possible to give a bonus for OD? in that case, HR will get better.
By this logic, OD shouldn't matter in pp calculations, but the timing window. HR does increase the OD, which affects the timing window, so both are covered this way.
Hidden should scale with low SV, high OD, and high pattern complexity.
I'd mostly like to address the difficulty algorithm though. Some examples of inconsistencies:
Falcom Sound Team jdk - Over Drive - Pheon's Oni is rated at 5.36 stars while 52's gets only 5.17. This makes absolutely no sense, as 52's Oni is like a gazillion times harder. Pheon's doesn't really deserve an X-tier difficulty icon either, it's pretty repetitive.
Nami Nakagawa - DON'T CUT - The Inner Oni is underrated; it should definitely be higher than the regular Oni (harder and longer patterns, more rhythmically complex), yet it has almost .2 stars less.
Rohi - Kakuzetsu Thanatos - qoot's Diff is underrated
Yousei Teikoku - Hades: The Rise - Ridiculously overrated
Bring Me The Horizon - Anthem - ^
DJ YOSHITAKA - Evans - ^
Megpoid GUMI - Sorry For Being a Closet Otaku - ^ (with DT only)
Shiraishi - Shinsekai - Underrated (HR SS only gives 302pp, wtf)
And a very big (but unranked) example:
REDALiCE ft. Ayumi Nomiya - Foughten Field (t+pazolite Remix) - 6.68 stars is higher than any ranked map, but I can FC this without too much trouble. Wat.
There are many more, but these are some of the biggest offenders/weirdest cases. Most of the overrated maps are moderately high BPM (220-240) with lots of simple and repetitive note clusters (mostly triples, few longer patterns).
I'd mostly like to address the difficulty algorithm though. Some examples of inconsistencies:
Falcom Sound Team jdk - Over Drive - Pheon's Oni is rated at 5.36 stars while 52's gets only 5.17. This makes absolutely no sense, as 52's Oni is like a gazillion times harder. Pheon's doesn't really deserve an X-tier difficulty icon either, it's pretty repetitive.
Nami Nakagawa - DON'T CUT - The Inner Oni is underrated; it should definitely be higher than the regular Oni (harder and longer patterns, more rhythmically complex), yet it has almost .2 stars less.
Rohi - Kakuzetsu Thanatos - qoot's Diff is underrated
Yousei Teikoku - Hades: The Rise - Ridiculously overrated
Bring Me The Horizon - Anthem - ^
DJ YOSHITAKA - Evans - ^
Megpoid GUMI - Sorry For Being a Closet Otaku - ^ (with DT only)
Shiraishi - Shinsekai - Underrated (HR SS only gives 302pp, wtf)
And a very big (but unranked) example:
REDALiCE ft. Ayumi Nomiya - Foughten Field (t+pazolite Remix) - 6.68 stars is higher than any ranked map, but I can FC this without too much trouble. Wat.
There are many more, but these are some of the biggest offenders/weirdest cases. Most of the overrated maps are moderately high BPM (220-240) with lots of simple and repetitive note clusters (mostly triples, few longer patterns).
Just a question about HT:
I just found this little thing as my 100th record
Isn't it a bit too high for Half Time? No mod gives 301pp with 21x100.
There is only one... weird pattern, but with HT it's a piece of cake.
Also, how does EZ affect the pp drop?
or maybe I'm just missing something
I just found this little thing as my 100th record
Isn't it a bit too high for Half Time? No mod gives 301pp with 21x100.
There is only one... weird pattern, but with HT it's a piece of cake.
Also, how does EZ affect the pp drop?
or maybe I'm just missing something
pfff... o3oDarkStoorM wrote:
Also, how does EZ affect the pp drop?
or maybe I'm just missing something
Nicely done...
Using DT on converts like those almost guarantees high pp payout and EZ couldn't do anything to deter the difficulty from rising because it only affects HP and OD.
I've done lots of testing to see what does and doesn't give high pp payout and that looks like one of the cases I tested. Although I did it with taiko-specific maps, the overall results should still be the same.
Also..
Simplified: DT and HT are like night and day. If DT gives out a higher payout then HT gives a lower payout.
But there's no reason for me to spill all of my secrets so I'll stop here.
Kuro wrote:
pfff... o3oDarkStoorM wrote:
Also, how does EZ affect the pp drop?
or maybe I'm just missing something
Nicely done...
Using DT on converts like those almost guarantees high pp payout and EZ couldn't do anything to deter the difficulty from rising because it only affects HP and OD.
I've done lots of testing to see what does and doesn't give high pp payout and that looks like one of the cases I tested. Although I did it with taiko-specific maps, the overall results should still be the same.
Also..
Simplified: DT and HT are like night and day. If DT gives out a higher payout then HT gives a lower payout.
But there's no reason for me to spill all of my secrets so I'll stop here.
You should be posting your test results, not trying to profit off of them.