So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959


Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.

Then from the same user:


Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.

Tom94 wrote:

I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.

Nobody stops people who prefer to play the quality ranked taiko maps from playing them. You will not be forced to play every single map with the new pp system. As with standard only your best scores will count a lot, and trust me, there are more than enough ranked taiko maps for achieving your pp peak.

Tom94 wrote:

I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.

And something else was said.
I don't mind it that much, but I'm still the opinion as many other people are, that converted maps have no place in pp since they aren't even designed for this game mode. I even forgot the reason for the addition of it since I never saw the sense for it at all. And the "making converts count less" didn't work that well as it seems; when considering MMzz example.
In my view, everything could be easier just by leaving converts out. *shrugs*

MMzz wrote:

So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959


Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.

Then from the same user:


Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.

This

MMzz wrote:

So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959


Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.

Then from the same user:


Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.

That's what I said during 10+ pages debate, but I gave up as some people didn't even considerate this opinion.

MMzz wrote:

So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959


Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.

I just wonder how much his PP will change if converted difficulties will "get nerfed" hard. Droppin' to 5k? >8D

Nashmun wrote:

MMzz wrote:

So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959


Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.

Then from the same user:


Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.

That's what I said during 10+ pages debate, but I gave up as some people didn't even considerate this opinion.

Well that's SOME people, usually we follow democracy on this shit, where the majority counts. We need to make sure the other part seem less vocal than our own.

'Some people' was actually including Tom (No offense intended, you did a great job with that new pp system, just pointing this out)

I also think that converted should really be removed of the pp system since 1/8 are weighted way too much.
"DoubleTime" is also weighted way too much imo and "Easy" mod looks like it doesn't affect at all the weighting of the maps.

You also should boost the weight of the patterns and HR on high OD imo (how kevin3333g can be ranked that low with all those perfect scores)

Here is how I see a better Taiko Ranking considering the actual one.

EDIT: Also, maps that have alot of repeating patterns like "Holy Orders : Sin" and "Closet Otaku" kdd kdd kdd kdd kdd etc... and ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk etc... seems to be weighted too much, is the system affected by this?

Nashmun wrote:

'Some people' was actually including Tom (No offense intended, you did a great job with that new pp system, just pointing this out)

Yeah I know, but I'm pretty sure we can convince him to think otherwise.

Dolphin wrote:

Yeah I know, but I'm pretty sure we can convince him to think otherwise.

I hit him with my taiko sticks unconscious. You put him into the drums and make him dissapear.

There aren't a lot of converts getting overrated like that, though. There's only a few spam maps getting over 400-500pp for people. So, now that we know which ones are getting 400-500pp for dumb reasons, wouldn't it be possible to group them together and figure out how to balance them with the other maps rather than getting rid of all of the converts?
From what I've seen, these specific ones seem to be causing the biggest problems.
StrangeProgram, Marisa, Mad Machine,Taihen na Mono no Shoushitsu, the stream compilation, and the other Marisa

Totally excluding all converts would be unreasonable and will only lead to more arguments,
but definitely they need to be lowered and not weigh as much.
A good pp system should have mode-specific maps to give the most pp, not converts.
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.

abrian159 wrote:

Totally excluding all converts would be unreasonable and will only lead to more arguments,
but definitely they need to be lowered and not weigh as much.
A good pp system should have mode-specific maps to give the most pp, not converts.
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.

I second this notion.

every time you bash wzx scores you look so jealous... also he us better than any player who posted in this thread on all types of maps. Just because you can't do it does not mean you should be so salty : ^)

abrian159 wrote:

Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.

Well, I tested it yesterday, to check how many PP maps are giving. Got some interesting results.

Let's take a look at HD SS and HR SS on t+pazolite - chipscape


And SS NOMOD


I don't get it xD...

_______
Next one: Saiya - Remote Control
There is HD-HR-FL, but with 37x100:

Heh

Let's compare DT with HD-DT + the same accuracy (4x100)



___________
Just to be sure, another one: xi - Ascension to Heaven
#1 - HDFL with 8x100
#2 - HD SS
#3 - HR SS


Funny thing is:
(no mod SS)

I don't get it. HD gives no bonus?

DarkStoorM wrote:

I don't get it. HD gives no bonus?

no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this system

abrian159 wrote:

Totally excluding all converts would be unreasonable and will only lead to more arguments,
but definitely they need to be lowered and not weigh as much.
A good pp system should have mode-specific maps to give the most pp, not converts.
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?

I think to some degree those "spam" maps need to give a good amount of pp. There is definitely only a very small fraction of players who is capable of doing them. I however also agree, that the amount of pp they give should be reduced. I hope I can do this without breaking the weighting of too many other maps.

A Hidden bonus is currently quite tricky to implement due to the way approach rate works in Taiko. It's definitely planned, but at a low priority compared to what has to be done for CtB and osu!mania.

agu wrote:

DarkStoorM wrote:

I don't get it. HD gives no bonus?

no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this system

As I've mentioned a few times already I did not have time for osu! for the past few months. The next priorities lie within getting ingame star-rating to run and to finish up some other things. Even then the other gamemodes will get some higher priority, since they are arguably more broken than Taiko.

Tom94 wrote:

agu wrote:

no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this system

As I've mentioned a few times already I did not have time for osu! for the past few months. The next priorities lie within getting ingame star-rating to run and to finish up some other things. Even then the other gamemodes will get some higher priority, since they are arguably more broken than Taiko.

alright, must've forgotten/not noticed, sorry if I appeared rude but I thought it'd be pretty easy to make a temporary hidden bonus by calculating how much accuracy people lose when adding hidden...so you at least won't get less pp by playing it with hd.

also I'm somewhat curious as to if FL will get nerfed as hard as it was in standard, as one of the few FL players in taiko who has experience in standard I find FL to be a lot harder in taiko than standard...although I guess there is also the possibility the disbelief of DSers will make you guys have the bonus be abysmal (I'm also against the huge nerf on FL on standard by the by)

tl:dr:sorry if I appeared rude

Tom94 wrote:

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?

I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.
And this example you've gave will never happen, because in osu you don't use a note constelation as we do in Taiko. Especially the amount of 1/4 and how we use SV.

Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch. Ich finde es genial was du bisher getan hast und betone es auch gerne immer wieder. Aber ich werde aus dieser einen Idee von dir nicht schlau. Es gibt einfach... so gut wie keine Osu-Map... die wie eine Taiko Map konvertiert wird; geschweige denn die in diese Richtung geht und i-was von einer echten Taiko map aufweist. Und trotz der Spieler die es jedes Mal sagen, gehst du vehement dagegen vor. Auch wenn mir das eigentlich ziemlich egal ist, da ich als Spieler schon lange nicht mehr wirklich aktiv bin, so sehe ich dennoch nicht den Sinn darin konvertierte Maps mit einzuschleusen, die im Moment eh nur Probleme aufweisen, mehr Arbeit geben und gegen Ende eigentlich völlig egal sind. Das sind Relikte aus einer Zeit als wir keine Taiko Maps ranken konnten. Es war nur ein Bonus für die osu Punkte von vor 5~6 Jahren.

Nej, ich bin mich nicht sauer sollte der Eindruck entstehen. lol
Aber ich wollte noch mal verdeutlichen was converted Taikos eigentlich bedeuten. Der Fall das wirklich etwas gut kovertiert wird liegt nahe bei 0.

Sorry guys for speaking german. lol

OnosakiHito wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?

I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.
And this example you've gave will never happen, because in osu you don't use a note constelation as we do in Taiko. Especially the amount of 1/4 and how we use SV.

Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch. Ich finde es genial was du bisher getan hast und betone es auch gerne immer wieder. Aber ich werde aus dieser einen Idee von dir nicht schlau. Es gibt einfach... so gut wie keine Osu-Map... die wie eine Taiko Map konvertiert wird; geschweige denn die in diese Richtung geht und i-was von einer echten Taiko map aufweist. Und trotz der Spieler die es jedes Mal sagen, gehst du vehement dagegen vor. Auch wenn mir das eigentlich ziemlich egal ist, da ich als Spieler schon lange nicht mehr wirklich aktiv bin, so sehe ich dennoch nicht den Sinn darin konvertierte Maps mit einzuschleusen, die im Moment eh nur Probleme aufweisen, mehr Arbeit geben und gegen Ende eigentlich völlig egal sind. Das sind Relikte aus einer Zeit als wir keine Taiko Maps ranken konnten. Es war nur ein Bonus für die osu Punkte von vor 5~6 Jahren.

Nej, ich bin mich nicht sauer sollte der Eindruck entstehen. lol
Aber ich wollte noch mal verdeutlichen was converted Taikos eigentlich bedeuten. Der Fall das wirklich etwas gut kovertiert wird liegt nahe bei 0.

Sorry guys for speaking german. lol

I don't speak German but I still support your point!!!

Guys, the whole discussion of converts being excluded or being nerfed as a whole is pretty pointless now. I know this post probably won't stop people from arguing about it, but everyone should realize that converts aren't getting excluded or nerfed as a whole regardless of what discussion goes on in here.

That's not to say certain aspects aren't getting nerfed, however. If you guys want to discuss something meaningful, I suggest looking at what is getting overrated/underrated in PP. Converts as a whole aren't getting overrated/underrated, currenty. It's certain aspects that make certain converts worth more than they should be. Anyways, we already know that HD is underrated and being worked on, but what about the other stuff?

I've noticed that the maps that are getting the crazy amounts of PP all have at least one very long single-color 1/8 stream in them. People say 1/8 is a problem in general, but there really aren't a lot of maps with 1/8 that are getting overrated at all. Like, my Sa'eed FC has a couple long-ish 1/8 streams in it, but the whole thing is worth 200PP, which is pretty fair, if you ask me. It's specifically the crazy long streams that get rated overly high.

Well, that's the last of what I have to say in this thing. I know there's gotta be other things that are getting over/underrated, but I don't see many people bringing them up. Seriously, look at your own best performances and see if you spot anything weird. Try to find out what's messing up the points.

TL;DR Don't bother arguing about converts as a whole, long 1/8 streams are getting overrated, there's still aspects to discuss, that's all I have left to say in this topic ALRIGHT BYE Y'ALL

Tom94 wrote:

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?

I think to some degree those "spam" maps need to give a good amount of pp. There is definitely only a very small fraction of players who is capable of doing them. I however also agree, that the amount of pp they give should be reduced. I hope I can do this without breaking the weighting of too many other maps.

In my opinion, None of the converts are anywhere near a real taiko map, but a good converted map. I agree with onos points, and the overall pp value for all converts should be reduced. As a non-convert player, although I can hit some 1/8s crazy streams, I don't really like playing them even though they give crazy amount of pp. The convert maps are considered as sh!t.

Convert nerf or riot!!

OnosakiHito wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?

I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.
And this example you've gave will never happen, because in osu you don't use a note constelation as we do in Taiko. Especially the amount of 1/4 and how we use SV.

Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch. Ich finde es genial was du bisher getan hast und betone es auch gerne immer wieder. Aber ich werde aus dieser einen Idee von dir nicht schlau. Es gibt einfach... so gut wie keine Osu-Map... die wie eine Taiko Map konvertiert wird; geschweige denn die in diese Richtung geht und i-was von einer echten Taiko map aufweist. Und trotz der Spieler die es jedes Mal sagen, gehst du vehement dagegen vor. Auch wenn mir das eigentlich ziemlich egal ist, da ich als Spieler schon lange nicht mehr wirklich aktiv bin, so sehe ich dennoch nicht den Sinn darin konvertierte Maps mit einzuschleusen, die im Moment eh nur Probleme aufweisen, mehr Arbeit geben und gegen Ende eigentlich völlig egal sind. Das sind Relikte aus einer Zeit als wir keine Taiko Maps ranken konnten. Es war nur ein Bonus für die osu Punkte von vor 5~6 Jahren.

Nej, ich bin mich nicht sauer sollte der Eindruck entstehen. lol
Aber ich wollte noch mal verdeutlichen was converted Taikos eigentlich bedeuten. Der Fall das wirklich etwas gut kovertiert wird liegt nahe bei 0.

Sorry guys for speaking german. lol

I know that good converts are pretty much non-existant. I knew that from the start. I also acknowledge, that letting autoconverts count less would make the problem less apparant in a way. This is not the right way to do it. Let me try to illustrate why with a few points:

1. Having autoconverts account for pp in some gamemodes and not in other gamemodes confuses the players. There would be a lot of people asking around, creating threads etc. It's just not very intuitive.
2. Most of the autoconverts are already getting rated fine. Only very few ones get a wrong rating. Penalizing autoconverts entirely would be like cutting off your leg because you hurt your toe.
3. Penalizing autoconverts would not fix the actual issue with lies within ridiculously fast patterns. If there ever would be a taiko-specific map with such fast patterns - even if they are not monocolor and well mapped in general - then they would get just as overrated. I repeat: Removing autconverts would only hide the issue by discriminating the class of maps where the algorithm fails most often. It would not fix the issue.

I can assure all of you, that if the algorithm gets this right by actually fixing the fast patterns, then it will also be more accurate for Taiko-specific maps in general.


I would also like to note, that autoconverts being bad maps is not related to pp. It is a valid point to ask for autoconverts to not be ranked in Taiko, but that has to happen as a global thing. pp is there to rate plays on all ranked maps.

capeseverywhere also explained all this very well. :p

apparently Taiko uses SV instead of AR (which gets completely neglected)

all these discussions took me too long to read rofl

This has been said countless times, but I don't think you are understanding this Tom. Converts =/= Taiko Maps.
Converts are not created with any of the gameplay factors taiko has. They are just hitsounds in the rhyhtm of a osu! map. You absolutely cannot compare the two types of maps in a competitive system. PP is a system to encourage competitive play in seeing who can gather the most points, doing the hardest things. SO how does it make any sense, that in this system, you can gather points in something that wasn't created for the game?

It does not matter that some converts are "hard" or "play well". Because they are not within the boundaries of what we all know as taiko maps.

The only reason converts exist, is because when taiko was implemented, there were no custom taiko maps. There wasn't even an option in the editor. I was there! All taiko used to be was getting scores on converts until we had the option to rank Taiko specific maps. This isn't 2009 anymore. THINGS CHANGE.

My point is driven purely on the fact that these maps have nothing to do with taiko besides the fact that an outdated system (The converting system) allows us to play them.

I think I should just point out that just because a map is not fun to play does not mean it should be worth less pp than a map that is more fun to play. I think taiko is diverse enough that one can get very good pp totals from taiko-specific maps as they can from reasonably comparable converts. There is probably just ridiculous examples of converts that provide a lot of pp that don't make much rhythmical sense that get rewarded for streams, but this is hardly a reflection of the entire range of converted mapsets.

I have mentioned a keyword here. Maps that contain complex rhythms should be valued higher than maps with regular rhythm. Reading ability is obviously a key component to playing taiko. Maps that require players to take more skills from their bag of playing abilities should be valued more highly. Spam maps tend to be not very rhythmically complex, because hitsounds get spammy during streams and slider converts are repetitive.

Reading ability > speed seems to be what people are asking for. I think that adapting to different velocities, especially faster velocities makes maps a lot harder. Reading high velocity or changing velocity doesn't require precise finger coordination compared to complex rhythms. Rhythm should win out in terms of valuing a map, especially if there is complex rhythm and high slider velocity.

Converts seem to be bad because they have fast velocities, have inconsistent finish usage and finish spam, fast note streams, and repetitive rhythm. This shouldn't disqualify them from being given a fair pp value. There are people that compete for these ranks just like there are people that compete for taiko specific maps. Kanopu didn't just play only taiko converts. It still requires effort to play these maps. In many cases it requires more effort like when there are finishes in a fast stream. If you compare the convert to a taiko specific Oni for the same song, the taiko specific would likely be technically harder to play. Technical ability is the dominant quality in taiko gameplay.

MMzz wrote:

This has been said countless times, but I don't think you are understanding this Tom. Converts =/= Taiko Maps.
Converts are not created with any of the gameplay factors taiko has. They are just hitsounds in the rhyhtm of a osu! map. You absolutely cannot compare the two types of maps in a competitive system. PP is a system to encourage competitive play in seeing who can gather the most points, doing the hardest things. SO how does it make any sense, that in this system, you can gather points in something that wasn't created for the game?

It does not matter that some converts are "hard" or "play well". Because they are not within the boundaries of what we all know as taiko maps.

The only reason converts exist, is because when taiko was implemented, there were no custom taiko maps. There wasn't even an option in the editor. I was there! All taiko used to be was getting scores on converts until we had the option to rank Taiko specific maps. This isn't 2009 anymore. THINGS CHANGE.

My point is driven purely on the fact that these maps have nothing to do with taiko besides the fact that an outdated system (The converting system) allows us to play them.

Did you even read my post? You did not refute any of the points I made. I already stated, that the pp system is not in charge of which maps are ranked and which are not. How often do I need to say that I'm aware of the fact that converts are considered "bad" Taiko maps by most people? If you are not satisfied with converts being ranked, then appeal for removing ranks on them at the appropriate places.

Once again, you did not refute any of the points I made. You are making a valid point, but pp is not the right place to address it!

I didn't refute your points on purpose because their not related to what I was trying to discuss initially. I don't really care about confusing players and how the maps are rated. Nor do I care about the quality of these maps, or how hard they are, because those don't relate to how a real taiko map is made and judged.. I care about pp being an accurate system with the maps created for this game mode.

But, if pp isn't the place to discuss this, where do we go? Why are you making it seem impossible for pp to not count a convert?

MMzz wrote:

I didn't refute your points on purpose because their not related to what I was trying to discuss initially. I don't really care about confusing players and how the maps are rated. Nor do I care about the quality of these maps, or how hard they are, because those don't relate to how a real taiko map is made and judged.. I care about pp being an accurate system with the maps created for this game mode.

Whether you care about confusing players or not - we do. Usability and consistency are important. In addition to that fixing the fast patterns instead of simply removing the converts would benefit pp by making it more accurate even for Taiko-specific maps. I fail to see how my points are irrelevant for your goal.

MMzz wrote:

But, if pp isn't the place to discuss this, where do we go? Why are you making it seem impossible for pp to not count a convert?

You are questioning the rationale behind converts being ranked. Try to make them go unranked - that's the right way to approach the problem. I don't want to have a half-assed ranking system where only part of the ranked maps account for pp - and that only in one gamemode.

To summarize:

1. Ranking system: Give chosen maps of appropriate quality a scoreboard and make them account to your online rank.
2. pp system: Rank the performance of ranked scores. Nothing more.

Pointing out that some streams, although being monochromatic, tend to be even more tiring than any other stream. If Phase 1 [Insane] had not its monochromatic part about ~2/3 of the song, it'd be much easier to dt. It comes from personal experience as much as others who do feel the same thing.

If you would unrank all converts, there would be no standard map ranked.

Nwolf wrote:

If you would unrank all converts, there would be no standard map ranked.

I think it's pretty clear, that in such a case the converts would have to get unranked for Taiko only.

I highly disagree with that idea. Not every song has a taiko map,and leaving taiko out of a mapset is not fair to taiko players and the people who want their maps to have representation in every gamemode.

TheVileOne wrote:

I highly disagree with that idea. Not every song has a taiko map,and leaving taiko out of a mapset is not fair to taiko players and the people who want their maps to have representation in every gamemode.

I also disagree with that idea. I was just refering to that being the correct way to get rid of autoconverts. Let's go back to actually discussing pp in this thread.

I think we should listen to people who actually plays taiko.

MMzz wrote:

Converts are not created with any of the gameplay factors taiko has. They are just hitsounds in the rhyhtm of a osu! map.

Taiko is pretty much just hitsounds to the rhythm as well, that's why conversion "works".

All playable maps should give pp based off how difficult they are after conversion. If difficulty calculation works as it should then very few converts will net more pp than taiko specific maps, and if that isn't the case then I believe the issue is with difficulty calculation rather than converts counting towards PP at all.

In the cases where the convert is more difficult than the taiko specific equivalent I would definitely argue that netting you more PP for it is perfectly rational. Sure most converts are pretty cack but the quality of the map should not be a factor when you're rating difficulty.

I guess I'll pop in. Auto-converts are a big problem, we all know that.

But all I want to say is that they're weighted too much. It doesn't not show any example of skill for a competitive type of gameplay.

Example 1: This is the highest weighted convert I have seen so far. There is no representation of skill, if you can memorize the literal Monotone beats in this map, then you can get quite a bit out of it. If we look at a no mod fc, it's about 550 pp.


Example 2: Quite possibly one of the hardest maps of all time, due to just actual gameplay mechanics. This is weighted a lot lower than the convert above, but the difficulty level is several times higher. If we look at a no mod score for this, its still 307 tops.


We have a bit more than 1/3 of ranked maps with Taiko difficulties involved. I don't think it would be an issue to have converts to not count at all towards pp. But to keep a little bit of competitive aspect to converts, I would like to propose converts being 1/3 of what they are now. This would stop the actual farmers and bring more attention to those that could actually play Taiko difficulties well. I don't know what you're getting at about us needing to unrank maps for us to get rid of converts. It's not the idea of converts being horrible for Taiko, it's just that having converts be weighted so much for converts is pretty harsh. I'm sure having converts weight a lot less would stop the farming, and since there's difficulty specific maps, you could possibly work around that. This type of farming in a way is relate-able to the Standard Hard farmers in ppv1, where top players were just people that could HD+DT any Hard difficulty would be in the top 100, top 10 if not that.

With the reduced weighting, you will still have players gaining a few ranks in the 5-10k+ area, maybe even the 1k area. But the top 100, 50, 10, whichever you want to pay more attention to. This is where converts shouldn't matter and being the top should show that you can play the hardest Taiko maps, not show that you can just full combo or high accuracy on a convert that has no meaning of skill besides maybe being fast, which should only be dependent on BPM. Reducing the performance that 1/8 and faster gives works as well too, since most converts use these in monotone rolls instead of complex patterns. Special keyboards could have binds so you can just roll the 4 fingers you use, which can be abused in this mode if the OD allows it. Well, there's my thoughts.

Love wrote:

I guess I'll pop in. Auto-converts are a big problem, we all know that.

But all I want to say is that they're weighted too much. It doesn't not show any example of skill for a competitive type of gameplay.

Example 1: This is the highest weighted convert I have seen so far. There is no representation of skill, if you can memorize the literal Monotone beats in this map, then you can get quite a bit out of it. If we look at a no mod fc, it's about 550 pp.


Example 2: Quite possibly one of the hardest maps of all time, due to just actual gameplay mechanics. This is weighted a lot lower than the convert above, but the difficulty level is several times higher. If we look at a no mod score for this, its still 307 tops.


We have a bit more than 1/3 of ranked maps with Taiko difficulties involved. I don't think it would be an issue to have converts to not count at all towards pp. But to keep a little bit of competitive aspect to converts, I would like to propose converts being 1/3 of what they are now. This would stop the actual farmers and bring more attention to those that could actually play Taiko difficulties well. I don't know what you're getting at about us needing to unrank maps for us to get rid of converts. It's not the idea of converts being horrible for Taiko, it's just that having converts be weighted so much for converts is pretty harsh. I'm sure having converts weight a lot less would stop the farming, and since there's difficulty specific maps, you could possibly work around that. This type of farming in a way is relate-able to the Standard Hard farmers in ppv1, where top players were just people that could HD+DT any Hard difficulty would be in the top 100, top 10 if not that.

With the reduced weighting, you will still have players gaining a few ranks in the 5-10k+ area, but the top 100, 50, 10, whichever you want to pay more attention to. This is where converts shouldn't matter and being the top should show that you can play the hardest Taiko maps, not show that you can just full combo or high accuracy on a convert that has no meaning of skill besides maybe being fast, which should only be dependent on BPM. Reducing the performance that 1/8 and faster gives works as well too, since most converts use these in monotone rolls instead of complex patterns. Special keyboards could have binds so you can just roll the 4 fingers you use, which can be abused in this mode if the OD allows it. Well, there's my thoughts.

Discrimination of converts in general is not going to happen as part of the pp system. Read my previous posts for reasons why. What you are complaining about is the difficulty algorithm assigning "wrong" difficulties to some converts. Very few ones. It has nothing to do with the map being converted or not. It has to do with its patterns.

I have an idea on how to reduce the impact of ultra fast patterns, but giving maps like this a value of unter 200 pp (as you suggested by the 1/3 division) is completely over the top. I am fairly sure that only a very small percentage of the Taiko population can actually play such patterns without macros or the likes. Expect the value to significantly go down, though.

Let me explain a little more with the 2 examples.

The first example is nothing but a single note pressed throughout almost the whole map. This doesn't show skill, nothing this easy should get that high of pp since all it takes is a little memorization. The Taiko community can memorize quite well with older maps, especially ones where you only press 2 keys instead of 4. There's 0 discrimination towards converts because there's no sense in skill for this kind of map. I could play this map again and probably get a bit out of it and I'm not that good. While if you look at example 2, you have complex patterns beyond imagination. These patterns are so advanced that I cannot come close to passing it. But you get so little pp out of it that it doesn't even matter. We are Taiko players, we have a ton of Taiko difficulties. Reducing the weight converts will give will not be discriminating because it's not really showing how much skill a player has for giving so many points.


If your system is about patterns like these, this isn't hard at all and the system can be and will be abused as such. Anyone could play single-colored patterns. Looking at the top replay on Strangeprogram, this player only spammed finishers for about 75% of the map. The fast notes at the end cannot be seen, but as seen with other players, this is totally macro-ed. This is no representation of skill. There are no complex patterns here, if you consider long rolls as "hard patterns" then there is something wrong with your system and how it implements patterns.

I would also like to reply to a post you made on the previous page.

Tom94 wrote:

Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well.

This does not show actual skill in a mode. The example I have shown with Strangeprogram being the "hardest" Taiko map that is ranked is very unlikely. Anyone could play a convert as I have pointed out, patterns that I have listed in Strangeprogram aren't patterns, they are just monotone beats. As I have pointed out before, this is like Hard farming in ppv1, it's not right. It does not show an actual player's skill, especially those who use macros for the "hardest" map.