the system isn't final, and the reason you're not getting ranks/pp for improving scores is that you have to make your score better than your best scores, or it won't be counted. this is to prevent pp farming
So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a player is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?capeseverywhere wrote:
@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.
After all its a rhythm game, accuracy should be one of the main aspect.Necro Neko wrote:
So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a playerl is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?capeseverywhere wrote:
@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.
I don't think it's so much that it's mostly being affected by one aspect, but that ultimately accuracy is the most effective measure of a player's skill within a specific instance of a beatmap -- that is to say, if you're good at a given aspect of Taiko, then it follows you would have good accuracy in that aspect. This is especially relevant considering the Taiko has the least multiplicative combo-score relationship, allowing for the ability to actually realistically place higher scores without necessarily placing higher maximum combos.Necro Neko wrote:
So how come a ranking based on the whole skill of a playerl is mostly being affected by only one of the many aspects Taiko exists of?capeseverywhere wrote:
@Necro: I think it's just because the accuracy can affect the amount of PP by a lot.
For example, your Chipscape FC with 96.68 acc (basing that off your yourtube vid) is worth 259 pp.
For reference, kanopu's 99.02 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape got 291 pp.
A 100 acc no-mod FC of Chipscape is worth 307 pp.
If there was an update that 'nerfed' the worth of high accuracy, your rank would probably be a bit higher.
First of all thanks a lot for the ideas and your advice.EBAWER123 wrote:
@Neko Playing mediocre maps won't net you many pp, having fc on chipscape and shinsekai with <98% acc is not considered much as well. Try playing harder maps which are actually challenging to play.
vs
I have a much lower rank than you (438 vs 338) but my top 8 gives more pp than yours try some of my songs - you should get lotsa pp :3c
You should probably use DT/HR on some of them but you get the idea. Some of the maps are overvalued like Anthem tho.
Tom94 wrote:
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.
Nobody stops people who prefer to play the quality ranked taiko maps from playing them. You will not be forced to play every single map with the new pp system. As with standard only your best scores will count a lot, and trust me, there are more than enough ranked taiko maps for achieving your pp peak.
And something else was said.Tom94 wrote:
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.
ThisMMzz wrote:
So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959
Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.
Then from the same user:
Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.
That's what I said during 10+ pages debate, but I gave up as some people didn't even considerate this opinion.MMzz wrote:
So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959
Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.
Then from the same user:
Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.
I just wonder how much his PP will change if converted difficulties will "get nerfed" hard. Droppin' to 5k? >8DMMzz wrote:
So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959
Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.
Well that's SOME people, usually we follow democracy on this shit, where the majority counts. We need to make sure the other part seem less vocal than our own.Nashmun wrote:
That's what I said during 10+ pages debate, but I gave up as some people didn't even considerate this opinion.MMzz wrote:
So how much is a Convert weighted vs an actual taiko map?
Because it looks like a lot of people who farm pp get more out of converts than taiko maps.
For example: http://osu.ppy.sh/u/659959
Wow look someone can do 1/6 and 1/8 don spam. Lets give them 500+ pp on a map that wasn't even designed for this game mode.
Then from the same user:
Wow they FC'd something actually hard on taiko. But it wasn't as hard as a 1/6 or 1/8 don stream. Nahhhhhh.
Yeah I know, but I'm pretty sure we can convince him to think otherwise.Nashmun wrote:
'Some people' was actually including Tom (No offense intended, you did a great job with that new pp system, just pointing this out)
I hit him with my taiko sticks unconscious. You put him into the drums and make him dissapear.Dolphin wrote:
Yeah I know, but I'm pretty sure we can convince him to think otherwise.
I second this notion.abrian159 wrote:
Totally excluding all converts would be unreasonable and will only lead to more arguments,
but definitely they need to be lowered and not weigh as much.
A good pp system should have mode-specific maps to give the most pp, not converts.
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.
Well, I tested it yesterday, to check how many PP maps are giving. Got some interesting results.abrian159 wrote:
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.
no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this systemDarkStoorM wrote:
I don't get it. HD gives no bonus?
Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?abrian159 wrote:
Totally excluding all converts would be unreasonable and will only lead to more arguments,
but definitely they need to be lowered and not weigh as much.
A good pp system should have mode-specific maps to give the most pp, not converts.
Furthermore, where the hell is HD bonus? It has been over few months and it doesn't show any progress to me.
It's not really fair for the HD players out there.
As I've mentioned a few times already I did not have time for osu! for the past few months. The next priorities lie within getting ingame star-rating to run and to finish up some other things. Even then the other gamemodes will get some higher priority, since they are arguably more broken than Taiko.agu wrote:
no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this systemDarkStoorM wrote:
I don't get it. HD gives no bonus?
alright, must've forgotten/not noticed, sorry if I appeared rude but I thought it'd be pretty easy to make a temporary hidden bonus by calculating how much accuracy people lose when adding hidden...so you at least won't get less pp by playing it with hd.Tom94 wrote:
As I've mentioned a few times already I did not have time for osu! for the past few months. The next priorities lie within getting ingame star-rating to run and to finish up some other things. Even then the other gamemodes will get some higher priority, since they are arguably more broken than Taiko.agu wrote:
no, it's still wip, assuming they're ever intending to continue working on this system
I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.Tom94 wrote:
Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?
I don't speak German but I still support your point!!!OnosakiHito wrote:
I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.Tom94 wrote:
Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?
And this example you've gave will never happen, because in osu you don't use a note constelation as we do in Taiko. Especially the amount of 1/4 and how we use SV.
Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch. Ich finde es genial was du bisher getan hast und betone es auch gerne immer wieder. Aber ich werde aus dieser einen Idee von dir nicht schlau. Es gibt einfach... so gut wie keine Osu-Map... die wie eine Taiko Map konvertiert wird; geschweige denn die in diese Richtung geht und i-was von einer echten Taiko map aufweist. Und trotz der Spieler die es jedes Mal sagen, gehst du vehement dagegen vor. Auch wenn mir das eigentlich ziemlich egal ist, da ich als Spieler schon lange nicht mehr wirklich aktiv bin, so sehe ich dennoch nicht den Sinn darin konvertierte Maps mit einzuschleusen, die im Moment eh nur Probleme aufweisen, mehr Arbeit geben und gegen Ende eigentlich völlig egal sind. Das sind Relikte aus einer Zeit als wir keine Taiko Maps ranken konnten. Es war nur ein Bonus für die osu Punkte von vor 5~6 Jahren.
Nej, ich bin mich nicht sauer sollte der Eindruck entstehen. lol
Aber ich wollte noch mal verdeutlichen was converted Taikos eigentlich bedeuten. Der Fall das wirklich etwas gut kovertiert wird liegt nahe bei 0.
Sorry guys for speaking german. lol
In my opinion, None of the converts are anywhere near a real taiko map, but a good converted map. I agree with onos points, and the overall pp value for all converts should be reduced. As a non-convert player, although I can hit some 1/8s crazy streams, I don't really like playing them even though they give crazy amount of pp. The convert maps are considered as sh!t.Tom94 wrote:
Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?
I think to some degree those "spam" maps need to give a good amount of pp. There is definitely only a very small fraction of players who is capable of doing them. I however also agree, that the amount of pp they give should be reduced. I hope I can do this without breaking the weighting of too many other maps.
I know that good converts are pretty much non-existant. I knew that from the start. I also acknowledge, that letting autoconverts count less would make the problem less apparant in a way. This is not the right way to do it. Let me try to illustrate why with a few points:OnosakiHito wrote:
I think you are not aware of the fact that nearly most of the osu converted maps are anything but a well converted taiko map.Tom94 wrote:
Even letting autoconverts weight less by an arbitrary factor might be unfair for some maps which actually convert very well. Consider the extreme case where you have 2 maps which end up exactly the same: One converted and one mode-specific. Would you expect one of them to give less pp as a player?
And this example you've gave will never happen, because in osu you don't use a note constelation as we do in Taiko. Especially the amount of 1/4 and how we use SV.
Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch. Ich finde es genial was du bisher getan hast und betone es auch gerne immer wieder. Aber ich werde aus dieser einen Idee von dir nicht schlau. Es gibt einfach... so gut wie keine Osu-Map... die wie eine Taiko Map konvertiert wird; geschweige denn die in diese Richtung geht und i-was von einer echten Taiko map aufweist. Und trotz der Spieler die es jedes Mal sagen, gehst du vehement dagegen vor. Auch wenn mir das eigentlich ziemlich egal ist, da ich als Spieler schon lange nicht mehr wirklich aktiv bin, so sehe ich dennoch nicht den Sinn darin konvertierte Maps mit einzuschleusen, die im Moment eh nur Probleme aufweisen, mehr Arbeit geben und gegen Ende eigentlich völlig egal sind. Das sind Relikte aus einer Zeit als wir keine Taiko Maps ranken konnten. Es war nur ein Bonus für die osu Punkte von vor 5~6 Jahren.
Nej, ich bin mich nicht sauer sollte der Eindruck entstehen. lol
Aber ich wollte noch mal verdeutlichen was converted Taikos eigentlich bedeuten. Der Fall das wirklich etwas gut kovertiert wird liegt nahe bei 0.
Sorry guys for speaking german. lol
Did you even read my post? You did not refute any of the points I made. I already stated, that the pp system is not in charge of which maps are ranked and which are not. How often do I need to say that I'm aware of the fact that converts are considered "bad" Taiko maps by most people? If you are not satisfied with converts being ranked, then appeal for removing ranks on them at the appropriate places.MMzz wrote:
This has been said countless times, but I don't think you are understanding this Tom. Converts =/= Taiko Maps.
Converts are not created with any of the gameplay factors taiko has. They are just hitsounds in the rhyhtm of a osu! map. You absolutely cannot compare the two types of maps in a competitive system. PP is a system to encourage competitive play in seeing who can gather the most points, doing the hardest things. SO how does it make any sense, that in this system, you can gather points in something that wasn't created for the game?
It does not matter that some converts are "hard" or "play well". Because they are not within the boundaries of what we all know as taiko maps.
The only reason converts exist, is because when taiko was implemented, there were no custom taiko maps. There wasn't even an option in the editor. I was there! All taiko used to be was getting scores on converts until we had the option to rank Taiko specific maps. This isn't 2009 anymore. THINGS CHANGE.
My point is driven purely on the fact that these maps have nothing to do with taiko besides the fact that an outdated system (The converting system) allows us to play them.
Whether you care about confusing players or not - we do. Usability and consistency are important. In addition to that fixing the fast patterns instead of simply removing the converts would benefit pp by making it more accurate even for Taiko-specific maps. I fail to see how my points are irrelevant for your goal.MMzz wrote:
I didn't refute your points on purpose because their not related to what I was trying to discuss initially. I don't really care about confusing players and how the maps are rated. Nor do I care about the quality of these maps, or how hard they are, because those don't relate to how a real taiko map is made and judged.. I care about pp being an accurate system with the maps created for this game mode.
You are questioning the rationale behind converts being ranked. Try to make them go unranked - that's the right way to approach the problem. I don't want to have a half-assed ranking system where only part of the ranked maps account for pp - and that only in one gamemode.MMzz wrote:
But, if pp isn't the place to discuss this, where do we go? Why are you making it seem impossible for pp to not count a convert?