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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
You're cherry picking maps and generalizing that DT must always be harder.
Give me an hour and I'll get like 20-30 A scores on 150 BPM (will have to intentionally miss to get As actually). I doubt you can even produce a single OD10 SS in that time. Feel free to prove me wrong. But then again, you'd need to get a ton of OD10 SS in that time to actually prove me wrong.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Note that the hit window for 300s of OD6+DT is the same as OD10. DT does make the OD skyrocket in Taiko, contrary to standard.
Edit: My mistake, it's actually OD6.66 + DT which is equivalent to OD10. Sorry.
Last edited by Tom94 , edited 1 time in total.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
OD7 DT (OD5 HRDT) is equivalent to OD10
OD6 DT is easier
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

OD7 DT (OD5 HRDT) is equivalent to OD10
OD6 DT is easier
My mistake, it's actually OD6.66 + DT which is equivalent to OD10. Sorry. OD7 + DT would be slightly harder.
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed
Ebawer this is just stupid, I can have A on a tons of Taiko diff even knowing I'm way far from FC'ing, the system will say that this A rank is better than my HR SS even if i'm 50k points behind it. And most of time those A ranks took me just one try or two. You can't really say it's harder or easier, it just require a different skill. Atm players that can full alternate barely DT and clear everything with a bad accuracy their ranks will be higher for the pp system than those who have good accuracy on a lower bpm.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Converted maps needs to be weighed much less, especially spam maps.

Sorry to the mentioned guy, but https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1451311#_general

Look at his best performances.

SPOILER
1. spam
2. SPAAAAAAMMMMMMMM
3. spam
4. spam
5. spam
6. idk didn't play
7, 8. taiko so it's ok
9. idk
10. spam

all the maps under "spam" are maps with impossible 1/8 streams - which are barely playable without HT or EZ.

same for this guy: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1506011, his BP almost only consist of spam maps, here having only ONE taiko diff. other people have insane scores on taiko diffs that are really overshadowed by spammy converts which got magical fcs like strangeprogram. this is what we wanted to avoid, actually.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Just for the record, I'm not saying HR SS is always better than DT A - a DT A on Big Black is harder than a HR SS would be for example. I'm just saying that generalization ("DT A is always better than HR/HD SS") is ridiculous.

And I agree on the spam conversion part...
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

_Gezo_ wrote:

Converted maps needs to be weighed much less, especially spam maps.

Sorry to the mentioned guy, but https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1451311#_general

Look at his best performances.

SPOILER
1. spam
2. SPAAAAAAMMMMMMMM
3. spam
4. spam
5. spam
6. idk didn't play
7, 8. taiko so it's ok
9. idk
10. spam

all the maps under "spam" are maps with impossible 1/8 streams - which are barely playable without HT or EZ.

same for this guy: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1506011, his BP almost only consist of spam maps, here having only ONE taiko diff. other people have insane scores on taiko diffs that are really overshadowed by spammy converts which got magical fcs like strangeprogram. this is what we wanted to avoid, actually.
His spam scores are pretty damn ridiculous. I've never seen a human come even close to that speed so far, so I'm not exactly sure how to view those.

The general opinion I get here is that I should penalize misses more, weight combo higher and consider accuracy more, is that correct?
(Those changes would penalize this guy's spam scores, too, as a nice side effect.)
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
If you use two keyboards at the same time, you can reach speeds at that level and even beyond on single color streams. It's not easy to coordinate your fingers so as not to hit two of the same key at the same time, but it can absoultely be done. I don't know if the players in question used this trick, but it's still a possibility, so please just decrease the weight of conversions by a significant margin ;w;
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123
they did, both midnait and whosthebox can't play for shit xD same as kawhy, one kb is more than enough, lol, you can either use 3 keys for each colour or use 2 hands for spamming 2 buttons, alternating left-righ hand, kawhy had a guide how to do it but I cba to look for it.

@Tom no need to alter the rankings, let those people be.
Last edited by EBAWER123 , edited 1 time in total.
Zexous
713 posts
Joined July 2012
Zexous
So does this system take a detour from peppy's goal in standard for accuracy weighting? From my new top ranks, it seems the pp is based less on the score itself and more on the difficulty of the map itself, with less weighting on how I actually played lol
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Can vouch for the BPM 200~230 being weighted too heavily.

Looking at my own best performances, apart from that A on augoeides (unlucky miss), other As shouldn't be there. Those plays on those maps were damn terrible and I feel bad for being that terrible, and they are weighted much higher than some other maps on the list.

But I can understand this in a way, as a still relatively new taiko player, I don't have the ability to play high bpm, so that's that I guess. Anything above 190 is actually pretty damn hard for me, hell even some lower bpm maps are really hard for me. But I have to say my scores on BRA, Hades and Ernst are pretty damn terrible, with multiple misses.
I can probably guess why Hades is being valued this much (was trying to talk about it before), but I can't get why BRA is. Apart from the speed component and one stream which starts with a kat on a blue tick, the map is just repetition of the same patterns over and over (though the SV could be tricky maybe, don't think it's THAT hard though) and I think it's being valued too much. My score over there sucks and it still beats some more impressive scores I did (imo).
Also about Ernst, the map introduces slightly longer patterns than your normal 3~5 note patterns, but it isn't really that hard to be honest. My performance there was terrible and is being weighted more than some other more impressive scores like Shawarma HR.
Oh yeah, Destrudo Oni being that high, uhhh yeah that's really wrong. That map is a lower tier 8* Oni and most of the taiko people can FC it first try with great acc. Should be faaaaaaar lower, same with Uchida Maaya - Tsubomi Yume Miru Rhapsodia ~Alma no Michibiki~ [Inner Oni]. my own maps derp

The list looks far better than before though. Was full of converts or some really easy Onis haha.
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
whosthebox play one hand kb one hand mouse IIRC. still that converted maps are pretty hard to do i dont know how that could be easier than a inner oni
xtrem3x
1,781 posts
Joined July 2009
xtrem3x

EBAWER123 wrote:

they did, both midnait and whosthebox can't play for shit xD same as kawhy, one kb is more than enough, lol, you can either use 3 keys for each colour or use 2 hands for spamming 2 buttons, alternating left-righ hand, kawhy had a guide how to do it but I cba to look for it.

Mechanical keyboards Ebawer-san, Mechanical Keyboards XDDD ........
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
After looking through a lot of top players' performance lists, I've come to the conclusion that the rhythm complexity factor might be overrated a bit. It was intended to boost the difficulty or maps with mixed 1/4 1/3 1/6 streams and similar patterns, but right now I get the impression that maps with just one or two stray 1/3 patterns are considered significantly harder than regular 1/2 1/4 maps. Maybe it's just coincidence and the real issue lies elsewhere, but that's what i gathered so far.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

After looking through a lot of top players' performance lists, I've come to the conclusion that the rhythm complexity factor might be overrated a bit. It was intended to boost the difficulty or maps with mixed 1/4 1/3 1/6 streams and similar patterns, but right now I get the impression that maps with just one or two stray 1/3 patterns are considered significantly harder than regular 1/2 1/4 maps. Maybe it's just coincidence and the real issue lies elsewhere, but that's what i gathered so far.
It'd be better to look through the difficulty list I posted in this thread for checking this. :P
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90616?m=1 this map being on my top ranks despite a miss gives me the feeling that the high SV section at the very end is skewing the maps rating a bit, especially when a much more difficult to FC song like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/284037 isn't on my top 10 yet Taiko Time is.
xtrem3x
1,781 posts
Joined July 2009
xtrem3x

Luna wrote:

After looking through a lot of top players' performance lists, I've come to the conclusion that the rhythm complexity factor might be overrated a bit. It was intended to boost the difficulty or maps with mixed 1/4 1/3 1/6 streams and similar patterns, but right now I get the impression that maps with just one or two stray 1/3 patterns are considered significantly harder than regular 1/2 1/4 maps. Maybe it's just coincidence and the real issue lies elsewhere, but that's what i gathered so far.

Factors for a better rank:
Taiko Mode: Death Streams should not be considered to better rank
Standard Mode: Separate notes very fast possibly
CTB: Many sprints for better rank ... no have idea
mania: ... only acc ._.

Also, My rank from #27 to #312 ... why? Q_Q
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tasha wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90616?m=1 this map being on my top ranks despite a miss gives me the feeling that the high SV section at the very end is skewing the maps rating a bit, especially when a much more difficult to FC song like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/284037 isn't on my top 10 yet Taiko Time is.
Combo isn't weighted as heavily in Taiko as it is in standard at the moment. Not exactly sure how much I should change that.
LinkerWTF
2 posts
Joined February 2012
LinkerWTF
deleted
Last edited by LinkerWTF , edited 1 time in total.
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace

Tom94 wrote:

Tasha wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90616?m=1 this map being on my top ranks despite a miss gives me the feeling that the high SV section at the very end is skewing the maps rating a bit, especially when a much more difficult to FC song like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/284037 isn't on my top 10 yet Taiko Time is.
Combo isn't weighted as heavily in Taiko as it is in standard at the moment. Not exactly sure how much I should change that.
imo depends on amount of misses

obviously fc is better than none, but if there's only 1-3 misses (one combo break) it should be way above 20-30 misses (probably multiple combo break) even though that's impossible to tell without watching replays or knowing exact scores or whatever. maybe each miss penalized harder than the last yea penalize me so hard
XK2238
2,066 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

EBAWER123 wrote:

kawhy had a guide how to do it but I cba to look for it.
yes pls

edit: as far as I'm concerned, the top 12 are entirely strong DTers? o.o
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun
You said this in the standard pp thread :

Tom94 wrote:

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.

The first requirement for getting pp is delivering a decent performance. Map difficulty is also factored in and can make up for worse performances up to a certain degree, but barely passing won't get you anywhere. As a guideline, you should try to get below 10 misses and above 90% accuracy if you want your play to be rated well. A higher combo also does help. Of course if the map indeed is ridiculously hard, then you can get away even with a low accuracy, as long as you keep your misses low and your combo high.
I couldn't agree more and that's why I think you need to adjust the algorithm to avoid situation like that :



Like, having 'bad' performance on heavily rated maps because they are full of spam. That means, it's easy to get FC during 95% of the map, and then you have 5% full of 1/8 spam so the algorithm might think it's still a great performance because you have a relative high combo.
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
i really dont get how the new system works, playing some converted normals/hard for chill and i got pp, fcing specific taiko maps(muzu/oni) and got nothing, same goes with easier difficulties giving more pp than harder.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nashmun wrote:

You said this in the standard pp thread :

Tom94 wrote:

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.

The first requirement for getting pp is delivering a decent performance. Map difficulty is also factored in and can make up for worse performances up to a certain degree, but barely passing won't get you anywhere. As a guideline, you should try to get below 10 misses and above 90% accuracy if you want your play to be rated well. A higher combo also does help. Of course if the map indeed is ridiculously hard, then you can get away even with a low accuracy, as long as you keep your misses low and your combo high.
I couldn't agree more and that's why I think you need to adjust the algorithm to avoid situation like that :



Like, having 'bad' performance on heavily rated maps because they are full of spam. That means, it's easy to get FC during 95% of the map, and then you have 5% full of 1/8 spam so the algorithm might think it's still a great performance because you have a relative high combo.
I'll address it this weekend. While it's valid for some players to have such plays in their best performance list (if they're not good at other things), it shouldnt be able to give so much pp in general.


WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

i really dont get how the new system works, playing some converted normals/hard for chill and i got pp, fcing specific taiko maps(muzu/oni) and got nothing, same goes with easier difficulties giving more pp than harder.
Please name the maps and show the scores, so I can check it. ;)
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun
Of course if the player doesn't have a lot of scores they should appear in his bp. But it's giving pp to everyone and the one I screened is in the top #50.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock

AnFace wrote:

yea penalize me so hard
ily

XK2238 wrote:

EBAWER123 wrote:

kawhy had a guide how to do it but I cba to look for it.
yes pls

edit: as far as I'm concerned, the top 12 are entirely strong DTers? o.o
It seems accurate, as those players possess enough accuracy and precision in reading notes to hit them at faster speed, and more speed = more BPM, and at that point playing well consistently at those speeds is reason enough to be placed fairly high. Though it makes noobita OP :3

Nashmun wrote:

You said this in the standard pp thread :

Tom94 wrote:

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.
yesssssss
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123
ozzyyyyyyyyyyyy i thought u ded
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

OzzyOzrock wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

pp are called "performance points". They are rating your performance, not your skill. Those 2 things are very similar but not exactly the same. Let's look at a piano player for instance. Would you rate a perfect interpretation of an easier piece lower than a horrible play through some ridiculously hard piece? I wouldn't.
yesssssss
Now does that "yes" agree with me or not? D:

(Can't embed 3 quotes within each other, so I removed Nashmun's enclosing one.)
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
so the new system give your pp based on high acc, high bpm and dt is the best mod right now? doing fc in onis with 95%acc is worse than some normal with dt 99 acc
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

so the new system give your pp based on high acc, high bpm and dt is the best mod right now? doing fc in onis with 95%acc is worse than some normal with dt 99 acc
Yes, because 95% acc is considered garbage in taiko. DT is obviously the best mod being the hardest one after FL and HR, isn't it obvious?
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
and u think a player who does 10 converted normals with dt is better than a player who does 10 oni with 95 acc?
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123
depends on what you call oni and normal

@Tom why do these 2 scores are valued equally 1st have better score, better acc and less misses 2 vs 15 yet no pp increase:?



Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58061&m=1

Is it because the difference is so little?
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun


I earned 1 pp with that DT play and immediately lost it after that DTHR play just because of accuracy, altough the DTHR play is a lot harder to achieve. I could 99 DT this map anytime but it's hard to keep a consistent 96+ with DTHR. The pp system as it is now favors way too much DT. If you want pp, then don't bother HR/HD or DT + mod because you will most likely earn less pp than with DT only because your accuracy will be lower. IMO that's something that should be fixed.
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
so the new system is, 98+acc or forget about your pp no matter what difficulty are u playing
seasonS
seasonS

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

so the new system is, 98+acc or forget about your pp no matter what difficulty are u playing
Basically
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123
Not rly there are some garbage records with C and B in my top ranks, so u can have bad acc as long as the map is some kind of hard
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
talking about regular maps, no that retarded 1/16 or 1/8 streams which are almost impossible to do even with HT
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

talking about regular maps, no that retarded 1/16 or 1/8 streams which are almost impossible to do even with HT
?

seasonS
seasonS
So how come I had 19 100's on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/147656&m=1
Then I did it with HD which was hard as F***, and lost like 12 pp? I had pretty good accuracy too... 44 100's --> 98.45% accuracy
Also I DT a song, 11 100's +3 pp cool... DTHD 18 100's -3pp...

What's going on? Am I just better off getting high accuracy with no mods than slightly lower accuracy with 1 mod?
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