Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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seasonS
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
I agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert :lol:
karterfreak
Keep in mind, there's a difference between hard and things that aren't good for the map / gameplay.

Using the default playstyle as an example, lets use a pattern like ddKdd. This requires left / right / left+right / right / left. The reason this is unrankable is because it requires you to switch from 1/4 alternating to 1/4 one handed in order to get full points, and at higher bpms / in streams this isn't possible. A more extreme example of this would be DdDdD as it requires 1/4 on one hand for the full 5 notes. As a ddkk player I could play this, but could a kddk player play something like that extended to say 10 notes in a 1/4 stream at 240bpm? Another (main) reason this isn't rankable is the overlapping and hitbox errors that can be caused due to finishers mixed into streams.

As for slider velocities, there's technically no unrankable SV, but the SV should still fit the pacing of the song, and it just so happens with BPM multipliers that 1.4 and 1.6 happen to be the best pacings in most cases. Don't expect to rank a song with hyperspeed SV all the way through as it doesn't fit the songs pacing.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tasha wrote:

My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.

Nobody stops people who prefer to play the quality ranked taiko maps from playing them. You will not be forced to play every single map with the new pp system. As with standard only your best scores will count a lot, and trust me, there are more than enough ranked taiko maps for achieving your pp peak. :P
Nashmun
What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nashmun wrote:

What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated. ;)
karterfreak
I'm all for giving things a try, but my concerns will still be there until the results are visible. Let's see what you can pull off Tom.
NoYzE
I believe in Tom :D
He did impressive work for the standard ranking and lifted it to the next level worth calling ppv2.
AnFace
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever

actually i'd like to know how the current broken temporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface
NoYzE

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
Ehh...
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score? ;)
Topic Starter
Tom94

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever

actually i'd like to know how the current broken temporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface
Players will still have to get great scores. The metric is called "performance points", not "potential points".
Also the current broken algorithm simply does the following:
  1. Multiply accuracy with star rating of the map (up to a maximum of 500)
  2. Divide result by 3 if converted
  3. Build the diminishing sum of the best scores for every player


That also makes it pretty obvious why it's not working well, heh? Still better than nothing - that's why it exists for now.
Sy[K]es
There should be a way to convert maps better than it does at the moment and still keep the combo score ratio the same.
Streams might be the biggest obstacle but I believe it is possible. :<
AnFace

NoYzE wrote:

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
Ehh...
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score? ;)
ideally hell yea

i mean the players that don't specifically have a lot of scores but still have some that are really good blah blah you know what i mean

quality vs quantity how will it play out overall
Sy[K]es
I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?
RaneFire

Sy[K]es wrote:

I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?
You are still thinking inside the box, namely that of the old system.

ppv2 has a beatmap difficulty algorithm, meaning this is what needs to be worked out precisely to get accurate results. Your performance is a statistical analysis compared with a perfect performance on the map. Player ranks in comparison to each other on a single map should be irrelevant. That was the problem with the old system for many reasons.

I'm sure there will be a LOT of testing. When tp first came about, it wasn't anything like it is now, and Tom tweaked it a lot, even adding a new variable (aim). I'm not predicting it's initial failure for taiko, but there is only room for improvement upon the algorithm, even if the first results may be completely off.
Topic Starter
Tom94
I've got some initial difficulty lists to show off here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VGc#gid=1

This spreadsheet does not contain every single beatmap, only the ones I selected for testing. Please give me feedback and let me know which version of the algorithm works the best. ;)
Nashmun
Hum, for me it seems like the basic algorithm is the most accurate.

The others one still have some weird results like Freedom Dive's oni > Inner oni while it's the contrary or still a duckling > I'm your daddy Fatal oni which is the opposite aswell.

I still need to look at it more closely though.
BrokenArrow
Yeah, same goes for HIT AND RUN IN 1920 A.D. and NNRT (which should be placed a lot lower normally)
But from first look things don't seem to be very far off, well done so far
EBAWER123
With colour changes w/o converts:



sacrifice and chipscape taikosakis are easier than who's your daddy or akasha, also gothic system is much harder than taikosakis not just a little :?


This is a lengthy post but please bear with me~


Some of these are human some of these are inhuman and some of these are easy, I wanna see what your programm thinks of these maps :3c
Nashmun
Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed :)

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2f9ibeu4yk8e ... nsekai.osz
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2f9ibeu4yk8e ... e%2008.osz
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k22ut3jyjn9j ... 20Ruby.osz
AnFace

Nashmun wrote:

Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed :)
most of the maps listed i've never played because of wtfbpm and me being slowface so i'd like to know this

otherwise goodbye to my rank i'll see you all in hell
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