Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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Dolphin

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.
Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......
Please. It's not even that we're trying to make converts look bad, it's a matter of opinion, and most of us think that 99% of the converts are pretty shit.
I never said there weren't good converts. But especially when we have this many ranked taiko map sets, I don't see the need of having converts give pp, I think we should still let them have scoreboards.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.
We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/
We have suggested fixes, we have explained why we have our opinions, and they're all very reasonable, I don't see how they're not.
Quiesce
Converted maps should be weighted fully. It's not enough to say that converted maps are terribly easy/badly mapped, because there are songs that are converted extremely well. If we do start to rank on note density, patterns, etc. (all the suggestions in this thread), it'll be enough to allow converts a fair chance in Taiko.
I have yet to find a compelling argument in this thread.
LunaticP
The question is do you count converted map as a taiko map. Theoretically whatever map, for it can be played in taiko mode it is a taiko map. However the gap between converted map and a taiko specific map is really large. To the extent that some people don't want to count it as a taiko map. You may find some map converted but still play well, but are they the majority? As a mapper, converted should not count. Very simple, if converted will also count then what is the use of mapping specific. I map hard on the map and now you said it weight the same as converted? But, as a player,converted map must count. First ,no matter what map i played, i still need to have good still so as to get good score and rank. Why i play an insane with full load of 1/8 and someone play a simple muzu and he get higher rank?

Which side you stand?

How to get a balance?

Try to explain and answer your view
Yuzeyun
on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
NoYzE
I must admit that i changed my mind, after playing a lot of specific maps and becoming a lot better over the past weeks.

While you have common patterns in specific maps you can learn and improve to read and play them more accurate and faster, you can't really learn patterns in converted maps, because there are no :P
Also, converted maps are often bad for alternating because of "sudden" big dons and kats, leading to bad habits for new players.

So i agree now that we should encourage the use of specific maps over converted maps.
But having "dead" maps without any ranking wouldn't be osu either.
So we should give them some influence but weight them less than specific maps.

edit: I started playing converted at the beginning only because there are really few ranked beginner maps in my opinion and the difficulty is very hard and fast rising for new players even on futsuu (only here in osu, not in TnT).
So if you want specific maps to become more popular among all groups of players including new players, we should take a closer look on advanced beginner maps connecting beginner maps to the advanced ones, and also take a look on the taiko map-packs, since it's very difficult to find all the taiko specific beginner maps that are not in the 2 packs.
Topic Starter
Tom94

TimmyAkmed wrote:

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.
RaneFire

_Gezo_ wrote:

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff.
karterfreak
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
lolcubes
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95895&m=1 Despite only being a don map, finishers at the beginning and end of streams are just god damn awful.

I already said all I wanted to say though, just contributing with really bad conversion examples. This used to be in my top performance for ages as well.
Dolphin
Tasha what is your address I want to ship one million gold medals your way.

PS: Dont give me your address, but you still deserve that victory fanfare from Final Fantasy at least!

You basically just said everything I wasn't able to word well.
Sy[K]es
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
LunaticP

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
for now is no

the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4
Dolphin

LunaticP wrote:

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
for now is no

the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4
This would be a good fix but it's a bit too late as a lot of people will complain and be like "but omg all the difficulty came from the fast notes and now all the mediocre players can beat us boo hoo :(:(:(:("
AnFace

Tasha wrote:

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines.
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
seasonS
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
I agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert :lol:
karterfreak
Keep in mind, there's a difference between hard and things that aren't good for the map / gameplay.

Using the default playstyle as an example, lets use a pattern like ddKdd. This requires left / right / left+right / right / left. The reason this is unrankable is because it requires you to switch from 1/4 alternating to 1/4 one handed in order to get full points, and at higher bpms / in streams this isn't possible. A more extreme example of this would be DdDdD as it requires 1/4 on one hand for the full 5 notes. As a ddkk player I could play this, but could a kddk player play something like that extended to say 10 notes in a 1/4 stream at 240bpm? Another (main) reason this isn't rankable is the overlapping and hitbox errors that can be caused due to finishers mixed into streams.

As for slider velocities, there's technically no unrankable SV, but the SV should still fit the pacing of the song, and it just so happens with BPM multipliers that 1.4 and 1.6 happen to be the best pacings in most cases. Don't expect to rank a song with hyperspeed SV all the way through as it doesn't fit the songs pacing.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tasha wrote:

My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.

Nobody stops people who prefer to play the quality ranked taiko maps from playing them. You will not be forced to play every single map with the new pp system. As with standard only your best scores will count a lot, and trust me, there are more than enough ranked taiko maps for achieving your pp peak. :P
Nashmun
What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nashmun wrote:

What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated. ;)
karterfreak
I'm all for giving things a try, but my concerns will still be there until the results are visible. Let's see what you can pull off Tom.
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