Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

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roufou

MeeHawk wrote:

1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more


I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

edit: also to clarifiy I'd give a score more pp the more impressive it is rather than judging by how much skill the score might've taken, I don't feel like the latter is even possible
TimmyAkmed

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
roufou

TimmyAkmed wrote:

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
maps like mad machine were never a problem in the old system so I don't see why they have to be now
TimmyAkmed
The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
MeeHawk
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
Oh good point.. now that i'm thinking on it, it would be plausible to say that. *Thumbs up*
Well, maybe Tom can figure out a good way to do this.. But for now I agree with you.

the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more
IT IS impressive, but FL wasn't made to be competitive I think, it is just to show you can memorize stuff :D
NoYzE
Ever thought about diminishing returns?
It's not hard to code such an algorithm for experienced coders i think.
However, it would really help to take away the fear, that converted maps could count too much.

Let's say you have a stream of 20 or 30 dons in a converted map above 200 bpm, which is still hard but not seen as "skilled" for taiko as you state.
Now the diminishing returns comes into effect:

The first don will give 100% of points (invisible ones, since it shouldn't affect the way of the scoring).
2nd: 50%
3rd: 25%
4th: 12.50%
5th: 6.25%
...
and so on.
If there is a Kat, it will give 100% points again and reset the multiplier for the next don to 100% again also.

So if there is a map with very little variation and much spamming, it would only give a little amount of points compared to taiko specific maps with much variation.

You could also let the system detect repetitive patterns and give less points for every same pattern as the previous.
This way "dkdkdkdkdkdkdkdkdk" wouldn't give 100% all the time because it is repetitive.

So that is why i said, if you have a good algorithm, you really don't need to fear, that converted maps could count too much, because if they'd do, the algorithm would be wrong.

Greetings,
NoYzE
EBAWER123
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Luna
The issue in my opinion is that a huge amount of standard conversions is pretty easy for the most part and then has a few stupid long 1/8 streams. Even if your pattern and accuracy skills are mediocre, you'd be able to farm lots of pp by getting ridiculous speed values if you can just mash fast enough.
For example, take Kanburisa. The patterns are super simple, but that 400 BPM deathstream lasts forever. A few people can mash fast enough to FC that, but does it mean they could play a regular 270 BPM map? No, absolutely not. Some of them can (Orukaa for example), but the mashing speed nesseccary for Kanburisa and similar maps does not automatically transfer into "real" skill.
If the calculation method for the speed value is even remotely similar to how it is in standard, converted maps will be imbalanced. I don't think they should be completely ignored in pp calculations, but definitely weighted less heavily.
NoYzE
I'm glad my solution to this is ignored :)
Luna
Your solution doesn't really work since long monocolor streams are actually surprisingly hard to play properly.
This does not apply to mashing 1/8 though
Sy[K]es

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Agreed.
Dolphin

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.
Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......
Please. It's not even that we're trying to make converts look bad, it's a matter of opinion, and most of us think that 99% of the converts are pretty shit.
I never said there weren't good converts. But especially when we have this many ranked taiko map sets, I don't see the need of having converts give pp, I think we should still let them have scoreboards.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.
We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/
We have suggested fixes, we have explained why we have our opinions, and they're all very reasonable, I don't see how they're not.
Quiesce
Converted maps should be weighted fully. It's not enough to say that converted maps are terribly easy/badly mapped, because there are songs that are converted extremely well. If we do start to rank on note density, patterns, etc. (all the suggestions in this thread), it'll be enough to allow converts a fair chance in Taiko.
I have yet to find a compelling argument in this thread.
LunaticP
The question is do you count converted map as a taiko map. Theoretically whatever map, for it can be played in taiko mode it is a taiko map. However the gap between converted map and a taiko specific map is really large. To the extent that some people don't want to count it as a taiko map. You may find some map converted but still play well, but are they the majority? As a mapper, converted should not count. Very simple, if converted will also count then what is the use of mapping specific. I map hard on the map and now you said it weight the same as converted? But, as a player,converted map must count. First ,no matter what map i played, i still need to have good still so as to get good score and rank. Why i play an insane with full load of 1/8 and someone play a simple muzu and he get higher rank?

Which side you stand?

How to get a balance?

Try to explain and answer your view
Yuzeyun
on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
NoYzE
I must admit that i changed my mind, after playing a lot of specific maps and becoming a lot better over the past weeks.

While you have common patterns in specific maps you can learn and improve to read and play them more accurate and faster, you can't really learn patterns in converted maps, because there are no :P
Also, converted maps are often bad for alternating because of "sudden" big dons and kats, leading to bad habits for new players.

So i agree now that we should encourage the use of specific maps over converted maps.
But having "dead" maps without any ranking wouldn't be osu either.
So we should give them some influence but weight them less than specific maps.

edit: I started playing converted at the beginning only because there are really few ranked beginner maps in my opinion and the difficulty is very hard and fast rising for new players even on futsuu (only here in osu, not in TnT).
So if you want specific maps to become more popular among all groups of players including new players, we should take a closer look on advanced beginner maps connecting beginner maps to the advanced ones, and also take a look on the taiko map-packs, since it's very difficult to find all the taiko specific beginner maps that are not in the 2 packs.
Topic Starter
Tom94

TimmyAkmed wrote:

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.
RaneFire

_Gezo_ wrote:

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff.
karterfreak
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
lolcubes
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95895&m=1 Despite only being a don map, finishers at the beginning and end of streams are just god damn awful.

I already said all I wanted to say though, just contributing with really bad conversion examples. This used to be in my top performance for ages as well.
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