Or that.
oh..though I'm kddk ,there are really many ddkk players. So some discussion above means nothing I think.lolcubes wrote:
While this is true, it's a moot point since the default (and should I say main?) input type for a computer is a keyboard (and a mouse), and not a drum. While our taiko is based off TnT, it's not TnT.OnosakiHito wrote:
→ As I said before, Taiko is a drum game. And kddk is the authentic gameplay for this game. Not because TNT does so. Rather because the drum is designed in this way - the rim and the centre.
For the purpose of discussion, we could say that we should be focusing on the default key setup to play with, and that is zxcv in a kddk setup though. That's a more valid argument in my opinion.
osu!standard has nothing in the difficulty formula in the patterns being played by different playstyles (mouse only, tablet + kb, lmb/x, etc), so I'd suggest to keep our taiko that way as well, meaning, it matters little if a pattern is easier or harder on a certain key setup.
Naah, the key setups of the playstyles that I've stated are the same, manOnosakiHito wrote:
Or that.
- Most people said so far HD=HR, so it's cool._verto_ wrote:
SPOILERI'm not really that experienced in taiko, so I'll just speak from my perspective, instead of trying to lay down some hard facts.
I read that you guys think HD<HR, but I think the better you get, the easier HD will become, because you sort of memorise the patterns with muscle memory, so you don't need to "think" about it (or at least that's what I noticed). I only recently started playing HD, but I still find HR easier than HD on a map like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45672 , even though I play on 1366x768.
Also I'm a ddkk player, though after seeing what kddk players consider hard, I found that it's similar to what I find hard. Like I think ddkkddkk-- patterns are a breeze, while triplets (especially kat triplets) in a stream is really hard or annoying.
Without the mechanical way it is hard to consider what is hard/easy. How else do you want to estimate patterns? By looking at them?Quiesce wrote:
We should purely focus on the technical aspects of the game, not the mechanical.
Well, then we do not need the mod if people think in this way. Sounds hard, but I see no point in supporting a "dangerous mod" because people want to gain just points and ranks with it.XK2238 wrote:
SPOILEROr at least make FL give 1.06x only (meaning FL + HD/HR = DT, FL + HDHR/DT = HDT/DTHR)... Please, people won't even bother trying to HDFL if it's only going to be exactly the same as HD >.> same applies with +HR.
Think of it as a middle road.
We talked about this before. It is possible up to a certain extend. Please read the previous pages.darkmiz wrote:
i agree that HD+HR is impossible to read, every note looks like 3~4 note cluster.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with u.XK2238 wrote:
Or at least make FL give 1.06x only (meaning FL + HD/HR = DT, FL + HDHR/DT = HDT/DTHR)... Please, people won't even bother trying to HDFL if it's only going to be exactly the same as HD >.> same applies with +HR.
Think of it as a middle road.
the sad truth has been spoken..._Gezo_ wrote:
You guys should drop FL, honestly whatever happens there's nothing you can do to counter the multiscreen players without penalizing true memory players.
In fact you have to agree that multiscreen players is far more than true memory players when HDFL or HDHRFL._Gezo_ wrote:
You guys should drop FL, honestly whatever happens there's nothing you can do to counter the multiscreen players without penalizing true memory players.
In my opinion yes, if you are using the kddk set-up and playing full alt you can play very easily every 1/2 on 300bpm maps and if the map don't have lots of 1/4 it's very simple. But if you singletap everything it'll become way harder/ impossible.Quiesce wrote:
Does a certain playstyle confer advantages to playing the game? This is the question we're asking.
i'd say full alt players usually have lower accuracy but orukaa would strike me downTimmyAkmed wrote:
In my opinion yes, if you are using the kddk set-up and playing full alt you can play very easily every 1/2 on 300bpm maps and if the map don't have lots of 1/4 it's very simple. But if you singletap everything it'll become way harder/ impossible.Quiesce wrote:
Does a certain playstyle confer advantages to playing the game? This is the question we're asking.
Since this playstyle is the most "optimal" the difficulty should be calculated with the playstyle that makes the game easier imo.
RaneFire wrote:
So I read the whole thread... and this patterns stuff seems to be going back and forth.
I should probably mention how bad I am first, so take my post as a long-winded opinion. Shoot me down if you must, but I'm interested in taiko nonetheless..
The ranking system needs to rank all players. I'm practically a newbie, despite playing occasionally in the past, only playing muzu's and trying to delve into oni's occasionally, but it's hard. The reason I can't play those oni's is because of the non-repetitive patterns which are very randomised long streams or randomised short patterns with gaps. (Random = non-repetitive) These are just too hard... But when a pattern repeats, no matter where, even in a long stream or with a gap, it is very easy to read and play, even with hand changes. It just needs to repeat only once, and reading is far easier.
Ebawer's example of how you break up reading patterns is correct... I'm noob and already do it. I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.
Instead of determining which patterns are easier, we should give all patterns a static difficulty based only on their length, up to 5 or 6 notes (including streams)... and rather than rank their difficulty, instead create an algorithm for identifying these patterns (and lengths) and only weight the randomness of the patterns used, i.e. repetition vs non-repetition. You could get more into the specifics of breaking-up the easy ddddkkkk patterns or dkdkdkdkdk, but that's not hard to do.
I think including 62 patterns into some difficulty hierarchy algorithm is going to be far too much work to balance correctly between play styles. The randomness between these patterns is the only thing you can work with. Pattern groups with a random/non-repetitive nature that go on for longer would be worth more "complexity" score. It should also carefully consider odd and even pattern groups though, like having 1 pattern repeated in between a different pattern every time.
This would also solve your auto-convert problem... I think, because they're objectively broken. The hard ones would stay hard, and the easy ones with 1/8 spam would be worth nothing. Ignore rolls and spinners too from calculation... I don't think those have anything to do with skill... just mashing speed.
I'm wearing my bulls-eye T-shirt today.
Nope, this is not true.RaneFire wrote:
I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.
LunaticP wrote:
Totally disagree sorry.
First don't call a patten random, no patten is random only if you map in random mood and make it shit. Every patten have its meaning and effect in the map. If the map continue to repeat a patten it looks shit already. And I assume mapper talking in here are not mapping shit.
If you really think a patten is random you should play more and you will not think in that way.
Second in a player's angle, I actually don't know how many times the patten(e.g ddk) have appeared. I play when I see the patten, no matter if that patten appear before. The most extreme case is this.
And on your logic, you think that the program should only check how many times a patten appeared? Then the example map given is really easy right? Please explain on your point on this.
Luna wrote:
Nope, this is not true.
Patterns that don't require leading hand switches are automatically more regular and repetitive. And I don't read streams as a single unit either, I do break them up into parts (albeit using a different "algorithm" than EBAWER); when playing long Firce-style deathstreams I hardly ever miss because I misread, I miss because I mechanically mess up a leading hand switch.
I'd also like to repeat that I don't think every stream with hand switches is extremely hard; I already mentioned before that something like kddkddkddkddkddkddkddkddk is simple due to repetition. It's the irregularity of pattern / hand switches that makes a stream truly hard.
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streamsRaneFire wrote:
IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
You know what I mean. The definition of the word was the problem. Stop being stupid about this just because I'm not a pro taiko'er. It's a game, just because I'm not good at it does not mean I'm stupid.Luna wrote:
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streamsRaneFire wrote:
IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddkLunaticP wrote:
Just answer this , which one you think is easier?
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk
2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk
3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
yea thisLuna wrote:
Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.LunaticP wrote:
Just answer this , which one you think is easier?
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk
2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk
3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
Don't feel offended, however you still can't grasp the true difficulty of oni maps (and higher level oni maps) just yet.RaneFire wrote:
Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?lolcubes wrote:
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
I swapped to full alternate because I was unable to do streams longer than 9~ notes (well, monocolors or streams which had 2 same colors if you divide a stream on 2x2x2x2 etc were actually fine) or even most simple chains on bpm higher than 150 (kdddkdddkdddkdddkdddk etc) because my playstyle was to cheese every pattern combination in a way I find it easier to play, so every 3~5 note (except for dkkkd, kkkdd and dkdkk, those were really impossible) was really easy to perform for me in any situation, but put them inside a stream and I'm done for.RaneFire wrote:
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?lolcubes wrote:
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
Yeah, I think Orukaa is an inspiration to everyone. :pRaneFire wrote:
I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.