Kingkevin30 wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

I was aware they didnt say that "I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rock versus DT doubletime." i was just taking what they said and using that to state my point and have some context to my post. it wasn't a direct response to them but it was simply using the topic they had already established as a way to get some background info on what I was writing about.

Don't trash people because you have forgotten how to enjoy the game.

Also, probably the only truly precise way for pp system would be to have a group of (knowledgeable, skilled and incorruptible) players dictate the amount of pp a song should give with all mods.

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Zak wrote:

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Ohh ok, maybe i skipped over that, since I got my information from the coffee hour aswell.
I thought it was more of an invitation for working toghther with certain community Members for a new PP System
Didn't actually hear that they said that they are already in the "beginning stages" of setting things up with community Members

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

Zak wrote:

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

thx i knew i could help if i just put my mind to it im so glad i could figure out a way to resolve this horrible dilemma

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

many map gave less pp but diffcult is much harder.

and then some ctb map gives pp too much.

Amlink wrote:

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Ascendance wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Tbh the pp system is quite fine but it should be slightly changed in terms of how much a convert map gives and how much a ctb map gives ! What I basicly try to explain is that a 6 star convert diff should give the same amount of pp what a 8 star ctb map give !! for example : ( big black fc 6,54 star = any ctb map ~ 8,5 star !

thats my thoughts about that because some ctb maps are quite easy compared to convert maps

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

ignoring pp would be not an option because you play for it or most users !! Also your explaining is not bad but what I mean is simply that we need 2 own ctb pp systems one calculated for ctb (right now is a good system for it) and one for converts

Ascendance wrote:

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

It's kind of hard to just ignore something that the entire community is obsessing over, but there really isn't a good change offered. The community just needs to learn that rank doesn't mean anything when it's just as easy to get 500pp as it is to get 800pp

I'm just gonna leave this here

Just fucking stop holy shit

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

Axiaan wrote:

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

i support this image

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

Could a mod just lock this thread until someone is finally going to tweak the pp system I just don't see the possibility of worthwhile discussion in here.

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

Seph wrote:

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

remove pp not the game remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

neither do the new thousands of people who will never get to know the true game without this farming meta back when i could proudly tell people i played osu now its a joke and anyone i mention it to finds out about how rank works and finds out about how the community is compared to what he or she has heard before and they drop it immedaitly its very selfish for so many users to care so much about something that only has poisned and ruined what i believe ctb was and could still be what a shame that so many people would rather have a number than a chance to save the game and restore it to the second home so many of us spent our time in

I feel having a rank is a really good thing only if the actual pp was accurate or if there was some other way to determine rank or something

I think everyone agrees that converts are much harder than ctb specifics and therefore should have a higher starrating but why exactly is that the case? Obviosly turning a map into a ctb specific does not change anything and will not get a higher starrating in return. The biggest difference in my opinion is that specifics use much more hyperjumps than converts and this is exactly where the problem is with the current difficulty algorhythm.
1. If you look at fullscreenjumps and halfscreenjumps they play exactly the same but the fullscreenjumps give a higher starrating.
2. Edgejumps are way harder to play than hyperjumps but give lower starrating (most of the time)
In order to solve this there is a very simple solution when calculating the difficulty of a map just change every value you'd give a hyperjump to the value you'd give a hyperjumptrigger (a note that is just far away to trigger a hyperdash / slightly higher distance than an edgejump)
In total this would not boost the converts but rather nerf the overwheighted ctb specifics.
Here are 5 difficulties I made (20 notes each) just to show how much starrating every pattern gives:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/739209#fruits/1559894
If you apply what I said for example all the hyperwalk maps would not be 10*+ but rather 3* because they would look like normal streams to the system (exactly how they are played as well)
1 more change I would make. Just let the system ignore notes in the beginning of the map where you do not need to move to catch them.
This would make all those 20-300* maps where you press nothing 0* and also with all the changes I think Der Wald would be an 8-10* map instead of 19* and maybe rankable then.
Just let me know what you think.

Pretty much everything you said has been said here before, it's just we have no one to make a new system at all so we're left with what we have.

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

Gln_Markus wrote:

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

????????? lmao

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

pp is a poopsystem

Gln_Markus wrote:

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

if you can do it you should talk to peppy

Seeing the recent tweaks being proposed for other gamemodes got me interested in seeing if any worthwhile, simple changes could be made for catch. Now any changes to the actual star rating calculation (which are sorely needed) are well beyond my ability but I came up with a few possible tweaks to the performance calculator which I think are worth considering.

I haven't been able to gather any sizeable amount of data on the impact of these changes, if anyone can assist with that it would be hugely appreciated. I do however have a couple of spreadsheets showing some relevant information

This spreadsheet includes a number of example beatmaps with current and proposed PP values

This spreadsheet compares current and proposed multipliers

PP values in these spreadsheets will be around ~1-2pp out due to the examples provided using rounded SR values

Scale accuracy penalty with beatmap total objects

The current accuracy penalty works well enough on shorter beatmaps with less overall objects due to individual droplets having a greater impact on overall accuracy. However with more total objects individual droplets have far less effect as accuracy in catch is just the percentage of objects caught (excluding spinners). Despite there typically being more droplets in a longer map, actual player droplet misses do not increase proportionally with the increase of objects in a map to compensate. As a result the current accuracy penalty is far weaker on higher combo beatmaps.

This proposal aims to scale the penalty with the number of total objects in a map (that contribute to accuracy) so the penalty remains relevant on longer maps. This helps to add more variety between player's performances and relatively buffs SS and high accuracy plays on longer maps.

Note that this still doesn't do anything to consider how difficult the droplets are to catch as calculating that would require changes to the actual catch difficulty calculation.

Example graph of penalty at 3000 total objects

Hidden bonus adjustments
Hidden is a bit of a mixed bag for players, it's incredibly difficult for some and can be considered a reading aid for others. Balancing that aspect of Hidden is always going to be tricky, however it's commonly agreed Hidden is easier at high AR values and much harder at lower. This proposal aims mostly at reducing the Hidden bonus at very high AR values(9.5+), whilst consequently buffing low AR values.

Current hidden bonus is 5% at AR10 and above, increasing an additional 7.5% for each AR below 10
Proposed bonus is 2.5% at AR10, increasing an additional 9% for each AR below 10, and reducing to 1% at AR11

This graph shows how the proposed bonus compares. It's virtually the same bonus at ~AR8.2, increased below it and decreased above it.

Approach Rate bonus scaling above AR10
Approach Rate bonus scaling currently gives a linear bonus from AR 9 to 11. This proposal gives an additional bonus to AR values above 10, scaling from a 1.1 modifier at AR10 to a 1.25 modifier at AR11, up from 1.2 because being Sonic is not easy. Going above AR10 gets increasingly difficult with each increment and this change helps reflect that.

Relevant graph. This change is interesting when looked at with the hidden adjustments. Overall PP values for scores with hidden remain similar but plays without see a fair boost bringing the two much closer together.


Thoughts, questions, and feedback are all very welcome

HD bonus must be increased basically. ( example, not exact %. it's approximate % https://puu.sh/AnJFc/4c90ea2f11.png )
my thought on AR bonus is same with socerer

+ increase FL bonus
it's too low for now

+ increase non-hyper patterns bonus ( especially hard-edge jumps after hyper dash )
after hyper dash, move next fruit to opposite side a little during pp calculating (not in real)

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

I will probably add a few more comments later, need to go for now

posting stuff to fix that's been posted in thread a lot of times already doesn't really give anything helpful to the system, since we already know what the problems are, it's fixing them that's the issue

sorcerer's suggestions are good specifically because they are actual changes, and not just stating problems

that being said i do agree with changes proposed by sorcerer