Zak wrote:

Anyone who wants to quit over losing their pp rank obviously doesn't play for the right reasons, the only thing going on in this thread lately is people bringing up the same issues again and again, Tom is already well aware, and when he comes back to tweak pp again, he'll do so, but until then people should stop getting so upset over a number that still doesn't do a very good job of accurately representing skill and bring up issues about the current system that haven't already been discussed. Also nowhere near "most" of the competition retired, that's far from the truth.

Actually if you was listening in on #osu channel that day you would of noticed the war that broke out and the countless number that haven't logged in since that event a bit over 6 months. Besides pp and ranking is what keeps me playing and supporting.

Please provide actual reasoning as to why we should go back to the old flawed way of calculating pp. Give something that validates adding value to those maps that got pp and difficulty reductions. People leaving is not a valid reason as these people knew what they were playing were overvalued and the only reason they played those maps is that they gave a lot of pp.

Make an argument about what is a fair pp amount for maps that got nerfed.

(I had a 243 pp play in my top list and it gave me ~200 ranks alone.)

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Zak wrote:

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Simple lets remove pp for all modes for a while and you will have your answer. It's a lot more than what you think. Showing off isn't what it's about, that is what the world cup is for. Just seems that all the people trying to be like you will never get to see what it's like on top if there is no system in place. You wouldn't care because your already there andhave had your fill of it. Besides the current system is fine as long it just keep going down hill.

No

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Zak wrote:

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Simple lets remove pp for all modes for a while and you will have your answer. It's a lot more than what you think. Showing off isn't what it's about, that is what the world cup is for. Just seems that all the people trying to be like you will never get to see what it's like on top if there is no system in place. You wouldn't care because your already there andhave had your fill of it. Besides the current system is fine as long it just keep going down hill.

what are you on.

My problem with pp is people taking it too seriously and investing their time in that alone, if anything that takes the fun out of this game as you're no longer playing maps that you find challenging and fun, you'll simply be looking at the number they give and playing it regardless of how you feel about the map, honestly from what I can tell pp works well in Taiko and Standard for the most part, so it makes more sense to focus on pp there to an extent but for pp to be your one and only reason to play ctb is sort of dumb when the system is broken, and even more dumb when the same people are going to come back when things are finally updated and cry yet again about how they lost their "well deserved rank".

Once again to be absolutely clear, it's okay to go for pp but to put 100% of all your effort into a system that is very obviously flawed and say there's no other way to enjoy the game is just stupid.

Zak wrote:

My problem with pp is people taking it too seriously and investing their time in that alone, if anything that takes the fun out of this game as you're no longer playing maps that you find challenging and fun, you'll simply be looking at the number they give and playing it regardless of how you feel about the map, honestly from what I can tell pp works well in Taiko and Standard for the most part, so it makes more sense to focus on pp there to an extent but for pp to be your one and only reason to play ctb is sort of dumb when the system is broken, and even more dumb when the same people are going to come back when things are finally updated and cry yet again about how they lost their "well deserved rank".

Once again to be absolutely clear, it's okay to go for pp but to put 100% of all your effort into a system that is very obviously flawed and say there's no other way to enjoy the game is just stupid.

Then why bother fixing it if it hasn't been correct in years. Should just let it be as it has and gone on living. What is fun for some might not be fun in the eyes of another.

Lets just revert to ppv1 then and leave it as is and never update it, that should make everyone happy

eargh this pointless argument is making me sick, you are talking around a pointless value and how you feel about it instead of just going to the Core
Topic....If you didn't find out in the decade you've been playing video games...there are some Core Aspect how people can enjoy playing a video game

and since I'm a lazy slob, i won't phrase what i want to say myself, I'm just gonna throw some quotes from an Psychological Study called
"A Motivational Model of Video Game Engagement"


so pls be quiet now...OK ?

Just let People Enjoy what they do the way they like it

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eargh this pointless argument is making me sick, you are talking around a pointless value and how you feel about it instead of just going to the Core
Topic....If you didn't find out in the decade you've been playing video games...there are some Core Aspect how people can enjoy playing a video game

and since I'm a lazy slob, i won't phrase what i want to say myself, I'm just gonna throw some quotes from an Psychological Study called
"A Motivational Model of Video Game Engagement"

Da Text-Wall

Video games motivate a remarkable amount of goal-directed
behavior.
...
the appeal of video games lies
in the inherent properties of the experiences they provide
...
behaviors pursued for their own sake or their inherent satisfaction are
identified as intrinsically motivated, whereas those pursued to
access desired end states or avoid aversive ones are understood as
extrinsically motivated
...
For more than 3 decades, one subtheory of SDT,
cognitive evaluation theory (CET), has guided research on
intrinsic motivation in sports, education, and leisure domains. For
example, Ryan and Deci (2007) recently reviewed a substantial
body of research on sport and exercise in which CET explained
interest and sustained participation in these activities. In another
recent example, Sheldon and Filak (2008) experimentally manip-
ulated autonomy, competence, and relatedness support in a non-
digital game-based learning context, showing that each of these
basic needs independently predicted motivation for a game activ-
ity.
...
This extensive body of research based on CET thus shows that
SPECIFIC PSYCHOLOGICAL NOURISHMENTS PRESENT in activities are nec-
essary for activities to be experienced as inherently enjoyable or
fun
,

so pls be quiet now...OK ?

Just let People Enjoy what they do the way they like it

Lol close enough, pretty much was what I was getting at. Take a cat for example, they like boxes but they don't have a purpose to a human since they don't quiet understand just why they like them. Same with me and many others we like things that don't really matter to some but without them it makes it feel no longer interested at all. Have played some games that the mini games were more fun than the actual game.

What are u talking about ? the pp system need a new developer who is Pro at CtB so he can argue every suggestion/refuse by testing ... ( i think tom is doing what he can do atm, if u wanna play for fun just play what u like if u wanna play to improve ur skill play what u can't/hard to play no matter what pp will afford )

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

-iNSaNiX- wrote:

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

So nomod SS > 1x droplet miss HDDTHRFL ?
The way score works is realy unlikely to change now, it's been said in multiple post.

-iNSaNiX- wrote:

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

This idea would kill bananas.

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

the bananas are actually spinners so they just function as bonus points, the full amount of possible seems to be only done by auto.

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

Since you didn't get a reply to the actual question, it should be implemented someday, as I'm sure osu! can easily calculate the amount you caught correctly (even though replays are sometimes a bit off showing you catching more). There is a feature request thread for it as well with lots of support, so I'd say just keep waiting and it should finally happen eventually.

ppv2 rip farmers, ppv3 soon

[Hakurei-Miko] wrote:

ppv2 rip farmers, ppv3 soon

Says who?

Welcome to the pp Fields

ppv3 ayy lmao
maybe in 2 or 3 years xD

lineqtxz wrote:

ppv3 ayy lmao
maybe in 2 or 3 years xD

I'm already calling the system we have right now ppv3, since the "Fix" ppv2 had made it pretty much gave it a whole new valuation

I have a way of enjoying the game even if I don't play it anymore myself.

Watch Zak suffer with 1 miss plays.

how is this ppv2? ppv1 = sey's platter.. maware etc ppv2 go berzerk land ppv3 today

CLSW wrote:

It would be impossible to remove pp ranking system on ctb
Guys, think it to better way, don't give up. We still don't know if new system will beloved?

I agree...
Play for fun every maps and don't give up ....
Enjoy!

Fun > pps.
Pps are just a number, fun is a sentiment.
Why people prefer a number as a sentiment ?

(If you say : why you say that, you're a farmer, you've 5000SS+ --> I like farm, so I have fun when I play. ^w^)

And I'm #730 now, but my skill is for a #900 guy. I can't play mods and better as people around my rank, so the pps system is good, but it doesn't show the real skill of the player.
I'm sure, a #150 can be better as a #80, and there +700pp of difference of actual #80 and #150. x)

Someone's ego is stronger than its not-working brain.

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

Why not just make everything give 0pp except for Bill Nye The Science Guy

Zak wrote:

Why not just make everything give 0pp except for Bill Nye The Science Guy

No need to remove pp, some people find it fun to see their pp get higher. If you don't then you don't have to pay any attention to it.

PakaChan wrote:

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

I think that's a bit of an overkill, they should just nerf the slider stream pp (void feat. Komatsuna - Akatsuki no Tsuki). Some CTB specific maps give quite fair amount of pp, imo LeaF - Calamity Fortune, Warak - Reanimate, CLIFF EDGE - Endless Tears ft. Nakamura Maiko and Mutsuhiko Izumi - Snow Goose are quite good.

-PM- wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FL ....!!! WOW

difficulty reduction...

malo culiao

PakaChan wrote:

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

I follow this way of thinking, imo the actual pp system is so wrong and new ctb maps are abusing of it.
TAG4 diffs doesn't give enough pp for example :')

Seriously, it's not because there is alot of hyperdashes that the map is hard.
Full HDash map -> over 5 stars
NoHdash map full of technical shitpatterns -> under 4 stars (I wanna say less than 3.5 but there is exceptions).

Of course the second map is way harder and gives way less, even if you SS FL or HD HR etc...

Tom94 maybe doesn't care at all.
He should create a poll or ask alot of pro players about all of this to correctly scale a new pp system for ctb that would be much less broken than this one.

Id wager its the same issue as with standard, the difficulty system does not account for patterns, only how far the notes are apart from each other, both in time and placement.

ShyeartFanGirl wrote:

Tom94 maybe doesn't care at all.

It's not that he doesn't care, he's busy and CtB is pretty much low priority for him (I think, compared to other gamemodes) since technically we have a better star system than taiko and o!m

PPV2 is s**t .I agree that PPV3 is much better than PPV2,but it disleads new CTB players .

Why do I say this word? We should change a view to look out this mode. CTB hard maps are based on insane patterns rather than jump jump without any skills. If you want to make a really CTB map, you can use jumps but jumps should be solved irregularly(such as Highscore Rainbow dash Arousing[ HW's Extra] and etc )

I highlight a word :JUMP. Yeah , many big-distance jumps look really cool and they are considered as very hard parts for new ctb players,especially red fruits in 2015 CTB maps.New CTB players insist that CTB maps need very very high skills because they can't catch red fruits at the beginning( including us )an the PP system prefers to new CTB maps . that is a wrong way to lead a new CTB player to join us. New CTB maps are good for new players to quickly improve thier skills , but they(New CTB maps) should not be attracted too much.

FL mod should be rewarded more pp. HD for high stars maps should be increased PP a little rather than decrease. Std maps should be improved stars and they are really hard. I don't think a 388PP ctb map is harder than Math Class [TAG4].

Finally, stars system of some maps with only 1-2 hard parts shoul be fixed(such as End Time [fear] and etc).

Overall,the correct difficulty is based on patterns.

Hamburgers are really delicious without any nutrition , a glass of water is not tasty but healthy.

Do you agree me?

serenity_P wrote:

PPV2 is s**t .I agree that PPV3 is much better than PPV2,but it disleads new CTB players .

Why do I say this word? We should change a view to look out this mode. CTB hard maps are based on insane patterns rather than jump jump without any skills. If you want to make a really CTB map, you can use jumps but jumps should be solved irregularly(such as Highscore Rainbow dash Arousing[ HW's Extra] and etc )

I highlight a word :JUMP. Yeah , many big-distance jumps look really cool and they are considered as very hard parts for new ctb players,especially red fruits in 2015 CTB maps.New CTB players insist that CTB maps need very very high skills because they can't catch red fruits at the beginning( including us )an the PP system prefers to new CTB maps . that is a wrong way to lead a new CTB player to join us. New CTB maps are good for new players to quickly improve thier skills , but they(New CTB maps) should not be attracted too much.

FL mod should be rewarded more pp. HD for high stars maps should be increased PP a little rather than decrease. Std maps should be improved stars and they are really hard. I don't think a 388PP ctb map is harder than Math Class [TAG4].

Finally, stars system of some maps with only 1-2 hard parts shoul be fixed(such as End Time [fear] and etc).

Overall,the correct difficulty is based on patterns.

Hamburgers are really delicious without any nutrition , a glass of water is not tasty but healthy.

Do you agree me?

Partially. But tentatively as a ctb mapper/modder I can tell you that jumps as you said "irregularly" are still experimental, and ctb stream mapping is also so hard to be creative that only one or two ctb mappers can handle this. It's easy to SAY, but it's hard to DO.

Remember, everyone has his own way to enjoy this game. Some enjoy jumps, while some enjoy patherns like you; some enjoy pp, while some don't. While I was a beginner I did enjoy hyperdashes which I thought were cool, and I tried my best to do well in them. Anyways you need to respect to the diversity.

Also, whether you love pp or hate, it's always that you care pp. I suggest you don't always judge a ctb specific map according to pp, since in this way you are likely to ignore what painstaking care the mapper pay in the map. In this point of view I can't agree more with Spectator (see his ask http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128855444064 and http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128938149472). In addition, sooner or later the pp arithmetic system will changed, but the quality of a map will still remain.

First of all I would like to thank Tom for putting in effort to make a change to the CTB pp system to begin with even though there are rooms for major improvement.

Here's how I dissect the problem with pp: (Umineko style :3)

Red statement: Core conclusion
Blue statement: Sub conclusion
Gold statement: Final conclusion

1. A good pp system is where the system credits map purely dependent on difficulty, and scale the rewards in pp proportionately. In other words, a more difficult map should always get more pp than an easier map no matter what, and ideally if Map A is twice as hard as Map B it shall reward twice as much of pp, or whichever proportion that is most fit be it purely multiple or logarithmic or exponential. I don't think anyone disagrees on this point.
Conclusion (1): Harder map = more pp

2. CTB is absolutely timing based just like Taiko and Mania. Unlike say Osu!Standard, where clicking on time (rhythm ---> time accuracy) and clicking at the right place (aim ---> spacial/positional accuracy) are two separate parameters. Having either variable heavily compromised will result in a miss no matter how good the other variable is being mastered. E.g. a perfectly timed click at a completely wrong place will always be a miss, a perfectly positioned click at a completely wrong timing will always be a miss as well. However for CTB, if one pressed the keys perfectly in time, one will never miss no matter what. That's because the platter moves at a fixed speed, and all combos unreachable with that speed will be caught with a hyperdash. Therefore the only parameter that affects CTB gameplay is the timing where the keys are being pressed (and held on to).
Conclusion (2): Timing = Everything in CTB

3. Since timing is the only affecting factor for CTB, then the more stringent the timing window the more difficult the map is to FC, therefore, is harder and deserves more pp.
Conclusion (3): Less forgiving timing window = More difficult = More pp

Mapping factors that affects timing/difficulty:

4. An AR too high requires great reaction speed, therefore can cause delay in a player's timing in pressing the keys correctly.
Conclusion (4): Extremely high AR deserves more pp.

5. An AR too low confuses the player as the platter becomes "slippery" (moves way too fast as compared to the dropping fruits), the fruits are harder to read and timings are harder to judge.
Conclusion (5): Extremely low AR deserves more pp.

6. High HP drains doesn't affect the key-press timing at all, but it multiplies the consequences of not being able to keep in time, which is to entirely fail the map.
Conclusion (6): Higher HP deserves more pp.

7. High CS makes the fruit hit-circle smaller, thus there is less room for mistake in terms of the position of the platter, since position of the platter is absolutely controlled by the timings of the keys pressed, the higher the CS the smaller the error in key-press timing there can be. Therefore a very high CS is very difficult.
Conclusion (7): Higher CS deserves more pp.

8. OD in all other modes: E.g. AT OD10 if you hit the object more/less than 15ms in timing you miss, that applies for every combo. For OD9 may be 20ms.
OD in CTB: Pattern A requires player to just move left by 3 platter length and you are given 5 seconds to do so. And then 3 more seconds to move right 1 platter length away. Easy. Pattern B requires player to move left right left right consecutively 20 times with 10ms of error window for each combo. Hard. Other modes use Meter OD, which is a fixed timing window exactly the same for every combo, that is invariable. CTB uses Pattern OD, which is dependent on how much room for timing error to successfully get from one combo to another, which varies with different combos. Meter OD has no effect on difficult, while Pattern OD affects difficulty. The harder the pattern, the less forgiving the timing, the more difficult the map becomes.
Conclusion (8): Harder pattern = less room for timing error.
Conclusion (9): Harder pattern deserves more pp.

9. Longer maps require a player to consistently hit the timing window despite the long duration, it requires more timing accuracy as compared to if the map was shorted. Thus more difficult.
Conclusion (10): Longer maps deserve more pp.

Clearly from the explanation above you can see which factor affects the gameplay difficulty the most, at I will list it as my final conclusion.
Conclusion (11): Arranged in order of greater pp emphasis: Pattern OD > CS > AR (high/low) > HP > Meter OD = 0

Of course there are a lot more questions left unanswered by my conclusions.
1. What is consider too high/too low AR?
2. Is AR difficulty more subjective or objective?
3. Which are the patterns that are less forgiving?
4. Since every combo has different timing error window, how does one accurately account for the overall difficulty of a map containing thousands of combos?
5. I find low CS as hard to read as high CS, is that not a valid point?
6. What is the easiest CS/AR to benchmark on?
7. How does modifiers (mods) affect the above mentioned parameters?
8. How does spinners and droplets play a part in the pp system?
9. So many things to change so much work to be done, is that even possible?
10. Is it worth the effort to strive for a perfect pp system?
11. Is difficulty overall a subjective matter of pure human experience, or is it simply a matter of neurology mathematics and physics, or maybe both?
12. Should we scale elements that are or potentially could be subjective as objective pp?
13. WTF were you talking about the whole time, were you smoking weed?
And many more questions. Which I hope we can discuss in an mature and constructive manner in the future.

Not really agree that a high HP would award more pp.

If the player can full combo the map, the HP is not useful, and so he/she can still get the same amount of pp. So making HP as a measurement of pp amount, won't affect the system basically, maybe it is just more tolerable to the new players.