Of course it affects pp, even if it's by a small amount.
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Hidden gives a fixed amount to the aim value and accuracy bonus of a score. If I'm not mistaken it's an 18% boost to aim and a 2% boost to accuracy, so it's best used in jump/small circle maps with high OD.
I feel alive
The lack of PP you get for doing a HD play. I think a couple years back HD was actually rewarding and now it's not. Basically you have no incentive to learn HD anymore because the lack of performance points you get.
The way things are currently, HD is very rewarding if you learn to play it well and likely to be harmful if you don't play it well and just use it on random plays. It gives a 20% boost to aim pp, which can be huge, and a 2% (I think) boost to accuracy pp, which is basically nothing. If you can use it on aim-heavy maps without dropping accuracy for it, it's very rewarding. However, if you use it on less aim-heavy maps with high OD and lose accuracy for it, you very well might find yourself losing pp for using it. And don't even try to play hard-to-read, easy-to-aim maps with HD. Not worth. There are fewer of those after the recent HD change though.
It basically suffers from the same issue as flashlight. Making it feel rewarding for individual maps would make it insanely OP overall. It's a bigger issue for flashlight because being able to play HD on most maps isn't a problem for most people who try to learn it (everyone except me b/c i suck at reading). The system could definitely be better, but I don't know how tom would make this particular aspect of the system smoother within the current framework.
It basically suffers from the same issue as flashlight. Making it feel rewarding for individual maps would make it insanely OP overall. It's a bigger issue for flashlight because being able to play HD on most maps isn't a problem for most people who try to learn it (everyone except me b/c i suck at reading). The system could definitely be better, but I don't know how tom would make this particular aspect of the system smoother within the current framework.
Why use anything? The pp algorithm is primarily rewarding aim and people use devices like touch screens where aim doesn't matter in the slightest. So eventually, people get rewarded for the slickest aiming skills they don't have.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Why use pp when you can use percentiles?
Suggestions:
1. Remove the aim component from the algorithm completely
or
2. Delete or unrank touch screen scores or at least don't give pp for respective plays.
or
3. Remove pp from the game if you really believe touch screen is a legit playstyle
If you consider no.2 but really argue with the complexity of the algorithm becomming too demanding for the servers then make clear using touch screens is a punishable offense like using aim hacks and ban the cheaters. Simple but effective.
The whole concept is broken and doesn't work with touch screen scores being submitted.
T R I G G E R E D
Sure it has the potential to be broken but as of right now not a single top player uses touchscreen. Not sure if your puppy choked on a touchscreen or something but honestly it's not a big issue until it actually causes any problems.Infevo wrote:
Why use anything? The pp algorithm is primarily rewarding aim and people use devices like touch screens where aim doesn't matter in the slightest. So eventually, people get rewarded for the slickest aiming skills they don't have.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Why use pp when you can use percentiles?
Suggestions:
1. Remove the aim component from the algorithm completely
or
2. Delete or unrank touch screen scores or at least don't give pp for respective plays.
or
3. Remove pp from the game if you really believe touch screen is a legit playstyle
If you consider no.2 but really argue with the complexity of the algorithm becomming too demanding for the servers then make clear using touch screens is a punishable offense like using aim hacks and ban the cheaters. Simple but effective.
The whole concept is broken and doesn't work with touch screen scores being submitted.
on topic: Is there really no way to calculate angles in maps? I feel like the aim component would be complete with a correctly added weighting for awkward angles
^^uberpancake wrote:
but honestly it's not a big issue until it actually causes any problems.
Maybe it's just me but I'd like to think of it as a problem when a 25k rank player craps out a <100 rank score with 400pp+ and gains 6k rank for a 80% acc play in the process. And considering >50% of the rewarded pp being aim based and touch doesn't require any aim skill whatsoever it is dazzling to see people play it down and claim it was just another legit playstyle.
I really should start caring less... facing an absolute absence of reason and logic here on the forums makes my brain bleed.
I agree that touch screen has no place in this game. It's such an inherently different way to play the game that it's essentially a different game alltogether. Every single other playstyle is about moving your cursor on your screen by using some peripheral. With a touch screen you just touch the screen (as the name already suggests), you don't move a cursor. You can easily use 4 (or more) fingers, removing the aim aspect of the game completely. Exgon's kanojo score is the perfect example of this. Those jumps are pretty much impossible for any normal player, yet with a touch screen he can just put 4 fingers over the positions and press them in the right order, essentially trivializing what would otherwise have been the most impressive fc in the game so far. You can argue that tag4 maps don't give pp so it doesn't matter, but the same thing happens in highscore (and other maps) but in a less severe way. He may be a good player, but he's definitely not good enough to fc one of the hardest jumpmaps that is currently ranked without cheezing his way through the jumps with a touch screen.
one possible last resort fix that would work for certain is invalidate plays that have any cursor teleportation. this would hurt tablet players too but might be for the best if touchscreen becomes mainstream.
aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
Not even close. First of all, with a tablet you're not directly aiming on the screen (unless you're using a tablet pc, which is probably even less common than touch screen). Second, you still need to hold and move something. You can only use up to 2 pens properly because you only have 2 hands (and how many people are ambidextrous enough to do that?), and then i don't even know if that works. And if it does, it's sure going to be hard as hell coordinating 2 pens without looking at them directly.jaaakb wrote:
aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
holy moly that's a lot of salt, calm down people
i guess people have different thoughts, but generally you are right
i was gunna ask this question, but sometimes i think my tablet is another computer that you can adjust the size of the areasilmarilen wrote:
Not even close. First of all, with a tablet you're not directly aiming on the screen (unless you're using a tablet pc, which is probably even less common than touch screen). Second, you still need to hold and move something. You can only use up to 2 pens properly because you only have 2 hands (and how many people are ambidextrous enough to do that?), and then i don't even know if that works. And if it does, it's sure going to be hard as hell coordinating 2 pens without looking at them directly.jaaakb wrote:
aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
i guess people have different thoughts, but generally you are right
Touchscreen plays do look broken on jump maps but I don't think they're that bad, mainly considering that it seems like a pain to read (fast) stuff with your hands in front of the screen, most maps have streams and fast streams also seem like they'd require skill to do on a touchscreen consistently, and on top of that maps with crazy slider magic might also be a problem for touchscreen players. Yeah, it looks stupidly easy on maps like Kanojo and Helix but I don't think they're as broken as people think they are. That said, they do trivialize jumps, and using a touchscreen is pretty much the only way to legally trivialize any aspect of osu! gameplay right now. That in itself is good enough an argument against it.
On another note, have any solutions or reasonable suggestions been provided yet for sliders being underweighted? I was working on a very slider-heavy Extreme earlier, and even though it plays like a 5.5 star it was only rated 4.72 stars. The star rating actually started going closer to 5 once I started mapping the calm section which had more circles in it. I mean, slider angles aside, it seems wrong to me that a legitimately difficult map with big jumps gives far less pp/gets rated far lower than some map with moderate sized jumps that simply has more circles.
Which reminds me, somehow World's End DT (happy's version) is rated lower than Toumei Elegy's hardest diff. I can't imagine a player who can FC World's End DT that wouldn't be able to FC Toumei Elegy unless their speed is way way above their aim. But that seems rather unreasonable to me, considering the hardest parts on Toumei for me are the streams. I guess Jesse's point about fast streams with low spacing being underrated still hasn't been addressed.
On another note, have any solutions or reasonable suggestions been provided yet for sliders being underweighted? I was working on a very slider-heavy Extreme earlier, and even though it plays like a 5.5 star it was only rated 4.72 stars. The star rating actually started going closer to 5 once I started mapping the calm section which had more circles in it. I mean, slider angles aside, it seems wrong to me that a legitimately difficult map with big jumps gives far less pp/gets rated far lower than some map with moderate sized jumps that simply has more circles.
Which reminds me, somehow World's End DT (happy's version) is rated lower than Toumei Elegy's hardest diff. I can't imagine a player who can FC World's End DT that wouldn't be able to FC Toumei Elegy unless their speed is way way above their aim. But that seems rather unreasonable to me, considering the hardest parts on Toumei for me are the streams. I guess Jesse's point about fast streams with low spacing being underrated still hasn't been addressed.
they do need a massive buff, but it's hard to do that with the nature of acc pp. assuming very fast streams get the buff, plays that have abysmally low acc, like mouse buttons enabled + hitting both keys at once low yet didn't break combo because they were easy to aim will be heavily overrated even after losing all acc pp.
with a huge buff, plays that achieve high accuracy (relative to the bpm of course, even 90% can be high in some cases), will be rewarded appropriately. If there were some way to make it so that if the difficulty of a map comes from low spacing high bpm streams, that having non-existent acc like 60% or something that shows they didnt even really play the map does more than just forego all acc pp, it reduces the overall pp of the score by a lot. Of course, being able to hold a ridiculously low acc combo on a map with ultra high bpm streams due to double tapping or some other mash tech is not possible on every map that falls under the category, but this contingency shouldn't really hurt any of them.
Acc curves should also be rescaled for these maps, because the whole 98%-100% mega curve is utterly pointless on something with 285 bpm streams or whatever. However i'm not sure what would be a fair place to start the curves, maybe tom should get all the top speed players together to discuss it. Note im not saying acc bonus should cap out, it will still increase up to 100% as always, I'm just proposing that it starts ramping up sooner than 98-99% since on a lot of these maps these accuracies are simply not possible yet. If it's done right as speed players improve even more and get higher acc the reward will be appropriate and allow the maps to stay relevant and keep up with typical farm maps.
i dont know, i just want the relatively few players who put themselves through more physical strain than any standard hr/dt farmer to achieve stamina at high speeds to get what they deserve, but it's so hard to think of solutions that don't involve splitting up aim/acc/speed entirely.
with a huge buff, plays that achieve high accuracy (relative to the bpm of course, even 90% can be high in some cases), will be rewarded appropriately. If there were some way to make it so that if the difficulty of a map comes from low spacing high bpm streams, that having non-existent acc like 60% or something that shows they didnt even really play the map does more than just forego all acc pp, it reduces the overall pp of the score by a lot. Of course, being able to hold a ridiculously low acc combo on a map with ultra high bpm streams due to double tapping or some other mash tech is not possible on every map that falls under the category, but this contingency shouldn't really hurt any of them.
Acc curves should also be rescaled for these maps, because the whole 98%-100% mega curve is utterly pointless on something with 285 bpm streams or whatever. However i'm not sure what would be a fair place to start the curves, maybe tom should get all the top speed players together to discuss it. Note im not saying acc bonus should cap out, it will still increase up to 100% as always, I'm just proposing that it starts ramping up sooner than 98-99% since on a lot of these maps these accuracies are simply not possible yet. If it's done right as speed players improve even more and get higher acc the reward will be appropriate and allow the maps to stay relevant and keep up with typical farm maps.
i dont know, i just want the relatively few players who put themselves through more physical strain than any standard hr/dt farmer to achieve stamina at high speeds to get what they deserve, but it's so hard to think of solutions that don't involve splitting up aim/acc/speed entirely.
That was mostly talking about 270+ bpm tho. World's end doesn't reach that.Tess wrote:
I guess Jesse's point about fast streams with low spacing being underrated still hasn't been addressed.
I do believe that extremely low accuracy already lowers your total pp beyond what you could lose from just having bad acc, at least tp did. It was not a lot (like 10% or something? random number i pulled out of my ass) but it did certainly happen.xxjesus1412fanx wrote:
that having non-existent acc like 60% or something that shows they didnt even really play the map does more than just forego all acc pp, it reduces the overall pp of the score by a lot.
On Wiki page, accuracy is said to make up for just a small margin of the "Speed" and "Aim" PP score sections, but is this really true?
How would you define the "small margin"?
Maybe 0%-5%? Or 0%-10%? In pharmacology, sometimes even 0.1% chance for medicine to poison people can be unacceptable. However, in osu!, this "small margin" can be much, much higher than 5% or 10%, comprising quite a big part of "Speed" and "Aim" score sections.
I don't want to give exact examples and numbers, but how big this {small margin} is? Should it be really called the {small margin}?
I understand that it can help in preventing people from farming PP from a long "lucky streams" on parts of very hard maps, but they would still need to deal with misses, which can wreck your overall score pretty badly.
It's just that small margin sounds as it really is small margin, while it doesn't necessarily need to be. Maybe we could get some more explanation on this matter, or the formula's sketch could be just more precise in wording? Even if something can be near negligible on high accuracy, it can be a major thing at lower ones.
How would you define the "small margin"?
Maybe 0%-5%? Or 0%-10%? In pharmacology, sometimes even 0.1% chance for medicine to poison people can be unacceptable. However, in osu!, this "small margin" can be much, much higher than 5% or 10%, comprising quite a big part of "Speed" and "Aim" score sections.
I don't want to give exact examples and numbers, but how big this {small margin} is? Should it be really called the {small margin}?
I understand that it can help in preventing people from farming PP from a long "lucky streams" on parts of very hard maps, but they would still need to deal with misses, which can wreck your overall score pretty badly.
It's just that small margin sounds as it really is small margin, while it doesn't necessarily need to be. Maybe we could get some more explanation on this matter, or the formula's sketch could be just more precise in wording? Even if something can be near negligible on high accuracy, it can be a major thing at lower ones.
If those parameters haven't changed since TP, the accuracy percentage determines a factor in the Speed and Aim values.Scarlet Evans wrote:
On Wiki page, accuracy is said to make up for just a small margin of the "Speed" and "Aim" PP score sections, but is this really true?
How would you define the "small margin"?
Maybe 0%-5%? Or 0%-10%? In pharmacology, sometimes even 0.1% chance for medicine to poison people can be unacceptable. However, in osu!, this "small margin" can be much, much higher than 5% or 10%, comprising quite a big part of "Speed" and "Aim" score sections.
I don't want to give exact examples and numbers, but how big this {small margin} is? Should it be really called the {small margin}?
I understand that it can help in preventing people from farming PP from a long "lucky streams" on parts of very hard maps, but they would still need to deal with misses, which can wreck your overall score pretty badly.
It's just that small margin sounds as it really is small margin, while it doesn't necessarily need to be. Maybe we could get some more explanation on this matter, or the formula's sketch could be just more precise in wording? Even if something can be near negligible on high accuracy, it can be a major thing at lower ones.
Accuracy Factor = 0.5 + (Acc%)/200%
So a 100% accuracy play has a factor of 100%, a 80% accuracy play has a factor of 90% (if there are no misses)
Not as easy as you're thinking, pressing K1 locks M1, so you must have a godlike technique to mash keyboard and mouse/tablet at the same time without having this issue.xxjesus1412fanx wrote:
snip
By now I reached the point where I would prefer ppv1 above ppv2.
ppv2 has an extreme influence on how osu! is received and played by new players(kind of including myself).
With some delay it also spread into maps so that we can "enjoy" some ridiculously stupid maps for tons of pp and close to 0 original value.
I'm sure Tom and peppy had the best intentions but the influence of pp on the development of the game looks very negative for me.
ppv2 has an extreme influence on how osu! is received and played by new players(kind of including myself).
With some delay it also spread into maps so that we can "enjoy" some ridiculously stupid maps for tons of pp and close to 0 original value.
I'm sure Tom and peppy had the best intentions but the influence of pp on the development of the game looks very negative for me.
I think you're projecting your percievement of enjoyment onto others
Has nothing to do with my perceivement of enjoyment. Whether it is the enjoyment to climb ranks or get good scores on harder and harder maps, ppv2 is not a necessity to enjoy either of these and it would work with ppv1 just as well.
There's no doubt that ppv2 has a severe influence on how the community and its content develops. That's what I dislike about it, not ppv2 itself.
There's no doubt that ppv2 has a severe influence on how the community and its content develops. That's what I dislike about it, not ppv2 itself.
But what's wrong with that? Why should people have to create content in some way that you won't that may not may not be for a specific purpose? In my opinion people can be free to create what they want for whatever reason. If someone makes a pp map, fine. If someone makes a map that doesn't give pp but is fun, fine.
If a map is only played for pp then abandoned, so what? If someone really actually likes a map, they'll play it regardless of pp or whatever and play it fairly often. And that doesn't need to be every or even the majority of maps.
There's also some opinion that maps that give pp are somehow inferior just because of this aspect, but I think that that's the complainers not able to divorce the actual map from the idea of pp.
If a map is only played for pp then abandoned, so what? If someone really actually likes a map, they'll play it regardless of pp or whatever and play it fairly often. And that doesn't need to be every or even the majority of maps.
There's also some opinion that maps that give pp are somehow inferior just because of this aspect, but I think that that's the complainers not able to divorce the actual map from the idea of pp.
GhostFrog wrote:
perceivementIt's perception, dammit
I'm sorry. I'll try to do better next time.GhostFrog wrote:
perceivementIt's perception, dammit
@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.
I lost PP and rank after I improved my combo + acc on a map. Peppy pls
E m i
Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
Just as skillful as it should be.
PP gain is based on accuracy, combo, and diff, but also on your ranking.
great job :^)
PP gain is based on accuracy, combo, and diff, but also on your ranking.
great job :^)
nonexistent accReynBolt wrote:
Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
I had a song with no full combo complete but with high acc , then I did it with full combo but with a little bit less of accuracy than before, and I lost pp and ranks ..
I'm done .. why ?
I'm done .. why ?
Combo has a linear scaling with pp but acc scales exponentially. Just look at Tillerino's pp-graphs on reddit.
What happened? whether the performance pp has been obtained may be reduced by the osu? I experienced it, pp perfomance i somehow reduced because of what?? 
Probably because you set a higher-score lower-pp score on a map you already had a score on
combo should have a scaling based on map difficulty spread of the map on a combo axis.
you can calculate what combo is required to guarantee a guy fcd a hard part in a map for sure.
calculate the easiest part he could have fcd for 10, 20, 30, 40, --- , 100% combo, make the combo pp scale based on that
this would only result in profit, unless you look at replay data for the specific points at which combo was lost.
so this would make getting 75% combo on a map with the hard part in the middle worht more than 75% combo in a map with the hard part in the end. makes sense. it was suggested earlier but i just wrote it again
you can calculate what combo is required to guarantee a guy fcd a hard part in a map for sure.
calculate the easiest part he could have fcd for 10, 20, 30, 40, --- , 100% combo, make the combo pp scale based on that
this would only result in profit, unless you look at replay data for the specific points at which combo was lost.
so this would make getting 75% combo on a map with the hard part in the middle worht more than 75% combo in a map with the hard part in the end. makes sense. it was suggested earlier but i just wrote it again