Because it shows a higher level of skill to hold and keep a high combo rather than two smaller ones.
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New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
With 400 combo, more room for unknown sliderbreaks, chances to only miss at hard points of the map, etc etc. It is better giving at least some weighting towards combo.Kheldragar wrote:
New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
I think the point made isn't that it's bad to give weighting but rather that the weighting currently is too high and should be balanced a little. I can stand behind this.
Also, there's still no solution for the slidermap problem? Miss You should be at least 5.8 stars, among others. I think circles are weighted a tad too heavily, especially considering that OD isn't included in SR calculations. If you don't count the accuracy difficulty of circles, how come that 4 1/2 circles in a row are weighted heavier than 4 1/4 sliders spaced at the same distance? It costs the same amount of effort to hit them. Or am I overlooking something here?
Also, there's still no solution for the slidermap problem? Miss You should be at least 5.8 stars, among others. I think circles are weighted a tad too heavily, especially considering that OD isn't included in SR calculations. If you don't count the accuracy difficulty of circles, how come that 4 1/2 circles in a row are weighted heavier than 4 1/4 sliders spaced at the same distance? It costs the same amount of effort to hit them. Or am I overlooking something here?
Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.Kheldragar wrote:
New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
They aren't, at least in terms of score.Keeby wrote:
Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.Kheldragar wrote:
New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.
In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.
Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.
But he's arguing in a PP context, not a score context.Endaris wrote:
They aren't, at least in terms of score.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.
In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.
Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.
How does spinner accuracy works for PP ?
It seems well-know that accuracy lost on slider breaking too early doesn't count for accuracy PP, being only bad for the max combo PP.
But then what about getting a spinner 100 or 50 ? Does it count like a normal hit ?
I know it doesn't matter /that/ much most of the time but it can matter and I'm curious anyway.
I'd like to just get a 50 and draw something if it only matters for the score.
It seems well-know that accuracy lost on slider breaking too early doesn't count for accuracy PP, being only bad for the max combo PP.
But then what about getting a spinner 100 or 50 ? Does it count like a normal hit ?
I know it doesn't matter /that/ much most of the time but it can matter and I'm curious anyway.
I'd like to just get a 50 and draw something if it only matters for the score.
pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner (though getting a 100 on a slider is often worse because it also lowers your combo). When pp is calculated, it's assumed you got 300 on every slider and spinner in the map and your accuracy on circles is calculated based on that.
It doesn't look like it does.GhostFrog wrote:
pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner
From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.
So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently ?
The pp system can't tell if the 50 you got was on a spinner or not, it assumes that all sliders and spinners are a 300 (and considers the 50 was in a circle).Ziassan wrote:
From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.
So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently.
If both of you say so I guess it's true, the wiki should mention this tho it's quite important info.
It does mention it, but you misinterpreted "ignoring" to mean that 100s aren't counted on sliders and spinners, while it actually means that sliders and spinners aren't counted towards the total accuracy difficulty of the map in pp calculations. 100s are 100s, sadly.
So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?
With how pp considers accuracy, a slider can't increase the pp accuracy of a play, only keep it or lower it.Kheldragar wrote:
So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?
Examples:
- 100 sliders with 300s, and 10 circles with 300s: 100% accuracy with only 10 objects.
- 100 sliders with 100s, and 50 circles with 300s: The accuracy is 55.56% (100% accuracy only counting circles), but it is considered you got -33.33% accuracy with 50 objects for pp calculation (0 accuracy pp).
I don't get this ranking system.
I get massive points for ranked maps that havent been hard, and for those that have been extremely tough to finish I get no points at all.
Since I only play maps that are challenging to get finished for me, I only get few points overall despite finishing more and more skillfull maps.
Atleast that is how I see it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/177523 This is one of the tougher maps I have just about finished lately, not sure if it is a Difficulty that makes me only deserve my current rank
(#79,735)
I get massive points for ranked maps that havent been hard, and for those that have been extremely tough to finish I get no points at all.
Since I only play maps that are challenging to get finished for me, I only get few points overall despite finishing more and more skillfull maps.
Atleast that is how I see it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/177523 This is one of the tougher maps I have just about finished lately, not sure if it is a Difficulty that makes me only deserve my current rank
(#79,735)
Your top ranks are self-explanatory, you mostly get C/B around 85% accuracy, probably not max combo.
The PP is mainly depending on your max combo & the accuracy, no matter how hard a map is, if you don't FC (or nearly) with a decent accuracy you'll get very small PP. "Finising" a map without dying is not what gives PP.
Maybe try maps slightly more in your range.
The PP is mainly depending on your max combo & the accuracy, no matter how hard a map is, if you don't FC (or nearly) with a decent accuracy you'll get very small PP. "Finising" a map without dying is not what gives PP.
Maybe try maps slightly more in your range.
It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
Well I was just explaining why it was not giving you PP.adratel wrote:
It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
I too feel that the max combo thingy is groundless for the PP, having a penalty on the number of miss wherever they are would be more logical. I made a post earlier on this topic about that.
But their is one thing that make this "max combo" antique thing still on, it's the score system, PP would be too different from Score if unliked from Max-combo and the few issues occuring actually would become daily life (since only the best score register and override your preivous, not the best PP, and it can't be changed).
On another hand, one can play casualy not caring about the rank, but I can understand that it's a let down.
You mean you actually have to put in hard work and effort to gain pp? Who would've thought.adratel wrote:
It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
@ Kheldragar Playing difficult maps is what I see as hard work, and I don't gain pp from it.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.
Mashing through a map isn't nearly as impressive as consistency in aim, combo and accuracy. This is why those things are rewarded.
There's hard work, and then there's just dumb hard work. You can try all you want to pass some 6 star map, but you're still going to perform shit at it. That's why they're called performance points, because they track how well you can PERFORM playing a map.adratel wrote:
@ Kheldragar Playing difficult maps is what I see as hard work, and I don't gain pp from it.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.
Ability to read fast enough for a certain AR is a tricky skill to reward properly because for the most part, either you have it or you don't. Some maps are harder to read than others, but that's usually not AR-specific for a map and can't be measured anyway with the current difficulty algorithm. When you give a % bonus to aim for playing a certain AR, you're saying that someone who can play that AR (and maybe even only that AR) is a certain percent better than someone who could do the exact same thing at some lower AR, which is kinda weird. Maybe instead of returning it to its former value it would make more sense to give a low % bonus to aim pp for scores earned on higher approach rates and some flat bonus to the score's pp on top of that that depends only on the approach rate and what fraction of FC you achieved? Would make high AR more valuable for lower-ranked players and less valuable for higher-ranked players than it was previously, which I think is probably fair. In the extreme case (not suggesting this would be a good idea (though I do think there's SOME merit to it), just throwing it out there), changing the high AR bonus to a flat bonus that depends only on approach rate would mean giving a flat bonus to total pp for someone whose scores are all FCs on some specific high AR (more specifically, 20 times the bonus you get for getting a FC on one map at that AR).
Ideally there will eventually be a way to measure reading difficulty that handles both high and low AR in some map-dependent way, but until then, it's hard to say just how much of a bonus high AR should give.
Ideally there will eventually be a way to measure reading difficulty that handles both high and low AR in some map-dependent way, but until then, it's hard to say just how much of a bonus high AR should give.
10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.
In general, if you're fast enough to read a map at a certain AR, it's going to be easier for you at that AR than at any lower AR, but it's still a skill to be able to read that fast in the first place. I really don't have much sense of how difficult different approach rates are at that end of the spectrum though.jesus1412 wrote:
10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.
Isn't there also a bonus for low approach rates?
Patterns in lower AR might mess you up anyways even if you can read them since there are so many notes in screen at once. Which is why there is bonus for being able to read those notes in addition to being able to read that lower AR.
Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.
Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.
I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR for newer players like myself.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR for newer players like myself.
The bonus was making high level dt overweighted so it was removed. If a new player finds high AR super hard then they're not gonna be fcing high ar maps anyway so a high AR buff won't even effect them.ShadyAngel wrote:
I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR to newer players like myself.
Honnestly reading low AR on hard/insane maps is also a skill.ShadyAngel wrote:
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself.
It's about being able to see all those circle and understanding the patterns through all those overlapping things, quick memory and such. That's also why AR<8 give a PP bonus.
I wish their was more low ar insane maps.
If you meant more PP-giving low AR maps, I agree with you. With the way things are now, pulling off a ~120PP play with AR8 nomod is more difficult than 120PP from AR9 nomod. Getting 140+PP from nomod AR8 is so difficult it almost feels impossible. (Maybe someday when I'm good I can 99% Poinsettia)Ziassan wrote:
I wish their was more low ar insane maps.
EDIT: oops didn't see the AR<8 part. Well, I'm all for AR7 and under too.
E m i
You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.[ Momiji ] wrote:
i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2
E m i
i have taken it into accountMahoganytooth wrote:
You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.[ Momiji ] wrote:
i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2
especially if acc aim speed (and reading?) get separated
AR will likely never be a huge factor in pp, the same kind of people who think low AR is god hard are basically the reverse of people who think high AR is hard, i.e people with little experience in it. like how your average newb playing ar6 normals thinks ar10 is impossible.
I remember being rank 140k and wondering how ar10 was even followable.