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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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DeletedUser_4329079

silmarilen wrote:

to give you a better example of underrated sliders: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/128645 or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/102282
i personally think pp doesnt look enough at technical difficulty, it's pretty much only physical ability. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040 are easily 5+ stars in terms of difficulty but only 4.32 stars because it's a slow map with pretty much no spacing


lol I didn't know Terminal was so underrated
dung eater
Not sure if this has been suggested before.

Maps could analyzed for difficulty on a combo timeline to determine what combo guarantees you fcd the hard parts. Find the lowest difficulty section, that x combo passes for some amount of combos (25%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% combo for example).

You could make a simple table for every map to weight the pp/combo% they give and buff nonfcs on maps with hard parts in the middle, lower the pp nonfcs in maps with hard parts in the beginning/end give.
jesse1412

jaaakb wrote:

Not sure if this has been suggested before.

Maps could analyzed for difficulty on a combo timeline to determine what combo guarantees you fcd the hard parts. Find the lowest difficulty section, that x combo passes for some amount of combos (25%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% combo for example).

You could make a simple table for every map to weight the pp/combo% they give and buff nonfcs on maps with hard parts in the middle, lower the pp nonfcs in maps with hard parts in the beginning/end give.
Suggested but I still agree with the idea.
Endaris
factoring in UR doesnt sound reasonable
first of all you'd have to replace it with average aberration and then again:
If you can get a bonus to a 300 why wouldn't you give extra pp for hitting circles closer to the middle?
And if there's already a function to calculate boni why wouldnt we replace every circle with a target like this?
http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/pc5 ... e9pkxi.png
would kill any DT-players with non-perfect aim and move the focus to smaller circle sizes when ppl git gud at it
slight irony because it would make the game weird imo but didn't want to keep it for myself
silmarilen
UR isnt about where you hit the notes, it's about how accurate you hit them. it's a better version of accuracy
Drezi
I think he knows that, but it measures your absolute accuracy, whereas hitting notes somewhere within the hitarea does not, only whether it's a hit or not based on CS, while this aim aspect could also be measured in an absolute way (regardless of CS, just like UR doesn't care for OD) if we wanted to go down that direction: hit distance from 1x1 centre of hitcircle, averaged similarly to unstable rate (and similarly to hit timing, more than X aim error = miss, where X depends on CS/OD).

It seems fair just like basing acc on UR, but I don't think it'd "feel good" to play like this (even though it'd be good to have mods that allow players to push their "aim accuracy" too by allowing CS7 and stuff like that on ranked maps). Probably measuring absolute error instead of categories wouldn't feel that harsh when applied to accuracy, maybe because that's already divided into 4 outcomes vs hit/miss of aim and we already have OD10-11 that require you to be rather precise with your acc, while CS7< is pretty rare.
DeletedUser_4329079
UR weighting would be really unfair for those who have cheap setups, I don't think it's a good idea.
Yuudachi-kun
Introduce rainbow 300's to standard that give acc weightings of 150%.

huaehaueahu
Endaris

Drezi wrote:

I think he knows that
^
Additionally UR is defined as:

osu! Wiki wrote:

This value represents how consistently you time your hits, with lower numbers being better (top players often score below 150). Note that this measures consistency, and not accuracy, so if you're consistent in hitting 15ms early, you'll get similar results to if you're consistent in hitting on time. The formula is essentially the standard deviation of your hit errors (in milliseconds) multiplied by 10.
Which the part with "average aberration" referred to as UR doesnt measure accuracy as mentioned in the definition.
You'd need a different value that calculates the deviation to the perfect timing in a sensible way.

The part with the target thing was meant as a fitting analogy that shows how awkward it would feel if something like weighted accuracy outside of OD would be added to the pp-calculation. Because what it essentially would be is that you're able to modify the OD of the map at will(to exactly what you're capable of) and the map still counting for your pp afterwards.
Coming from that, you could claim that possibility for any of the metadata: O look, I can SS this map at Hp4 and Hp9, gimme more pp for the latter.

and

Default wrote:

UR weighting would be really unfair for those who have cheap setups, I don't think it's a good idea.
My personal UR went down by around 30 INSTANTLY just because i switched to good input-devices before I even got used to them. When cheap setups already have a harder time it'd be unfair to give them less reward for something they already have to put more effort in.

PS: I feel seriously trolled by scoring system:
DeletedUser_4329079
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/13768 this map has insanely hard sliders too and gives ~180pp (WWW is the only one who has an S on it) I'm unsure if it's possible to fix it with the current system though.
blahpy
pp: [Tom94] Reduce value of the Easy mod to counterbalance difficulty calculation bugfix.
May I ask, what exactly happened in this update? It sounds like Easy got nerfed, but neither me or any of my friends that have Easy scores in their top ranks seem to have lost any pp.

Itsudemoo
Fix fast sliders and fast streams not worth anything atm
Skyanide
This has probably already been mentioned (and is probably a bad idea for one reason or another), but oh well, prepare for opinions.

I think it's a bit odd that max combo% has such a large impact on the amount of PP that a non-FC play is worth; I have had multiple cases where a play with multiple misses at the end of the song is worth considerably more PP than a play with one miss in the middle of the song.

In my opinion, the number of misses should have a bigger impact on how much PP a non-FC play is worth, and combo% should have a much smaller impact (or no impact at all). To account for slider breaks, perhaps there could be a PP bonus for getting a full combo (or a penalty for not getting a full combo).

jaaakb wrote:

Not sure if this has been suggested before.

Maps could analyzed for difficulty on a combo timeline to determine what combo guarantees you fcd the hard parts. Find the lowest difficulty section, that x combo passes for some amount of combos (25%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% combo for example).

You could make a simple table for every map to weight the pp/combo% they give and buff nonfcs on maps with hard parts in the middle, lower the pp nonfcs in maps with hard parts in the beginning/end give.
I think this is a good idea too.
uberpancake

jaaakb wrote:

Not sure if this has been suggested before.

Maps could analyzed for difficulty on a combo timeline to determine what combo guarantees you fcd the hard parts. Find the lowest difficulty section, that x combo passes for some amount of combos (25%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% combo for example).

You could make a simple table for every map to weight the pp/combo% they give and buff nonfcs on maps with hard parts in the middle, lower the pp nonfcs in maps with hard parts in the beginning/end give.
Imo it doesn't make too much sense to reward for a play where you missed on the easy part. Giving less pp for non fcs on maps with difficulty spikes near the end or beginning does sound like a good idea though.
GhostFrog

Skyanide wrote:

In my opinion, the number of misses should have a bigger impact on how much PP a non-FC play is worth, and combo% should have a much smaller impact (or no impact at all). To account for slider breaks, perhaps there could be a PP bonus for getting a full combo (or a penalty for not getting a full combo).
You're probably right about number of misses being weighted too little and % max combo being weighted too much in judging how good a play is, but you also found the problem that prevents a more accurate system from being possible: sliderbreaks. It's not possible to get accurate information about them from past plays and they're pretty much the equivalent of misses. I don't think there's a better way to account for the possibility of sliderbreaks than using max combo achieved, though exactly how much pp should scale with combo is debatable.

Bonus/penalty for FC/non-FC might be a good thing but it can't be too big without being unnecessarily harsh towards a low number of missed slider ends on a lot of maps.
Yuudachi-kun
I think it already counts for sliderbreaks in that you aren't (I'm assuming since it still doesn't count as a miss on the score screen) penalised 3% off of your max pp. You still fucked up your combo.
Ziassan
About the Max combo thing, let's face it, why a miss at the middle and a miss on the last note change just everything, performance-wise ? Their is no real point to this, it's just a miss.
The main reason is that PP & Score would be too different from each other, and everyone would be randomly losing PP because of higher scores worth less PP everywhere.
Since this topic has been addressed many times and the differentiation PP/Score is not gonna happen, the max combo importance will keep being something.
Yuudachi-kun
Holding a 1200 combo is much harder than getting two x600's.
Ziassan
In both cases the player did 1 miss, I don't really get why the fact the miss is here or there matter that much.
It's like with the 100's and 50's, them being at the start or the end have a huge impact on the score but not on the PP since when you do them don't change the performance.

edit : "higher level of skill to hold the combo" how ? it's still the same miss, it should not matter perf-wise if the player get it here or there, like getting a 50's at middle or at the end doesn't change the PP.
Yuudachi-kun
Because it shows a higher level of skill to hold and keep a high combo rather than two smaller ones.
E m i
limited offer: 0*100 1*miss airman, 99.88% in the middle for ~265pp
Yuudachi-kun
New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
E m i
if he 10 missed in the end then maybe you would, what do you think?
Bauxe

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
With 400 combo, more room for unknown sliderbreaks, chances to only miss at hard points of the map, etc etc. It is better giving at least some weighting towards combo.
Nyxa
I think the point made isn't that it's bad to give weighting but rather that the weighting currently is too high and should be balanced a little. I can stand behind this.

Also, there's still no solution for the slidermap problem? Miss You should be at least 5.8 stars, among others. I think circles are weighted a tad too heavily, especially considering that OD isn't included in SR calculations. If you don't count the accuracy difficulty of circles, how come that 4 1/2 circles in a row are weighted heavier than 4 1/4 sliders spaced at the same distance? It costs the same amount of effort to hit them. Or am I overlooking something here?
Keeby

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.
Endaris

Keeby wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

New idea: If I miss once every 400 combo in a 1200 combo map, should I be rewarded the same as the guy who three missed at the end? It's the same amount of misses, after all.
Consider getting getting 4 100s randomly throughout a song. Now consider getting them all at once at the end. I believe they are the same in our current system.
They aren't, at least in terms of score.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.
In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.

Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.
Woobowiz

Endaris wrote:

They aren't, at least in terms of score.
Getting 5 100s at the end of a 1200x combo has pretty much the same effect for score as getting 20 100s during the first quarter of the map.
That's why you can have an extremely hard time to surpass some low-acc scores even with an accuracy that is like 5% higher.
In this sense, hitting 100s at different places may keep you from beating a score for more pp as well.

Aside from that, a 100 is on a completely different scale than a miss.
100 means you're slightly off in 1 dimension of gameplay.
Miss means you're completely off in at least 1 dimension of gameplay.
It's completely legitimate that the former doesn't get punished as much pp-wise compared to a miss as it still indicates that you're overall doing the right thing if you don't miss.
But he's arguing in a PP context, not a score context.
Ziassan
How does spinner accuracy works for PP ?

It seems well-know that accuracy lost on slider breaking too early doesn't count for accuracy PP, being only bad for the max combo PP.
But then what about getting a spinner 100 or 50 ? Does it count like a normal hit ?

I know it doesn't matter /that/ much most of the time but it can matter and I'm curious anyway.
I'd like to just get a 50 and draw something if it only matters for the score.
GhostFrog
pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner (though getting a 100 on a slider is often worse because it also lowers your combo). When pp is calculated, it's assumed you got 300 on every slider and spinner in the map and your accuracy on circles is calculated based on that.
Ziassan

GhostFrog wrote:

pp calculations can't see where you got your 100s, 50s, and misses. A 100 is a 100 is a 100, whether it's from a circle, slider, or spinner
It doesn't look like it does.


From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.

So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently ?
Full Tablet

Ziassan wrote:

From the wiki. And I plead guilty for reading it 2/3 times never seeing it also spoke of spinners.

So spinner accuracy doesn't matter, and doesn't affect the combo, thus having a 50 or a 300 on a spinner has 0 effect on PP ? Apparently.
The pp system can't tell if the 50 you got was on a spinner or not, it assumes that all sliders and spinners are a 300 (and considers the 50 was in a circle).
Ziassan
If both of you say so I guess it's true, the wiki should mention this tho it's quite important info.
Nyxa
It does mention it, but you misinterpreted "ignoring" to mean that 100s aren't counted on sliders and spinners, while it actually means that sliders and spinners aren't counted towards the total accuracy difficulty of the map in pp calculations. 100s are 100s, sadly.
Yuudachi-kun
So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?
Full Tablet

Kheldragar wrote:

So wait, even though the accuracy in a slider doesn't count towards the pp calculation, it still makes my acc for the map go up? But if you get a 100 on it it will?
With how pp considers accuracy, a slider can't increase the pp accuracy of a play, only keep it or lower it.

Examples:
  1. 100 sliders with 300s, and 10 circles with 300s: 100% accuracy with only 10 objects.
  2. 100 sliders with 100s, and 50 circles with 300s: The accuracy is 55.56% (100% accuracy only counting circles), but it is considered you got -33.33% accuracy with 50 objects for pp calculation (0 accuracy pp).
adratel
I don't get this ranking system.
I get massive points for ranked maps that havent been hard, and for those that have been extremely tough to finish I get no points at all.
Since I only play maps that are challenging to get finished for me, I only get few points overall despite finishing more and more skillfull maps.
Atleast that is how I see it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/177523 This is one of the tougher maps I have just about finished lately, not sure if it is a Difficulty that makes me only deserve my current rank
(#79,735)
Ziassan
Your top ranks are self-explanatory, you mostly get C/B around 85% accuracy, probably not max combo.
The PP is mainly depending on your max combo & the accuracy, no matter how hard a map is, if you don't FC (or nearly) with a decent accuracy you'll get very small PP. "Finising" a map without dying is not what gives PP.

Maybe try maps slightly more in your range.
adratel
It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
Ziassan

adratel wrote:

It would be boring to play maps that are easy enough to FC
Or one has to retry again and again to FC it.
They said that this ranking system would be better for casual players.
I don't see casual players going for FC more than full time players, so it looks like they missed that point to me
Well I was just explaining why it was not giving you PP.

I too feel that the max combo thingy is groundless for the PP, having a penalty on the number of miss wherever they are would be more logical. I made a post earlier on this topic about that.

But their is one thing that make this "max combo" antique thing still on, it's the score system, PP would be too different from Score if unliked from Max-combo and the few issues occuring actually would become daily life (since only the best score register and override your preivous, not the best PP, and it can't be changed).

On another hand, one can play casualy not caring about the rank, but I can understand that it's a let down.
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