I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.jesus1412 wrote:
The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.jesus1412 wrote:
The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
I can put more effort into a DT score than a FL score whilst displaying more skill yet I gain no bonus for my added effort, why should fl have a perk based on the fact that it "usually" requires more effort? FL most certainly doesn't always require more effort, it already gets a long map bonus which is essentially rewarding the effort that you put in, it doesn't deserve any more reward for time investment. If effort was really a valued skill then it would make sense to record the amount of time spent setting a score (however this could be fabricated and is an awful as fuck idea anyway). To add to that, doing a score faster IS more skillfull, you're clearly more consistent and capable so the logic of "more effort deserves more reward" is completely ass backwards in my opinion.Kheldragar wrote:
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.jesus1412 wrote:
The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
So by that logic OD and CS could go down by 0,0005 for you on a given map every time you play through it to reward effort?Kheldragar wrote:
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
This is all there is to it.jesus1412 wrote:
The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
Nobody is saying FL should be worth more than DT, in fact, my complaint was that fast FL scores are underrated, NOT mild long ones. Memorization is also a skill in itself anyway. Just like finger speed, some people are just naturally better than others, but everyone improves with practice. People like BluOxy can FL songs without much practice from playing it so much. loli_milk had really fast recall, eyes, and decisive reactions that made him good at FL.jesus1412 wrote:
I can put more effort into a DT score than a FL score whilst displaying more skill yet I gain no bonus for my added effort, why should fl have a perk based on the fact that it "usually" requires more effort? FL most certainly doesn't always require more effort, it already gets a long map bonus which is essentially rewarding the effort that you put in, it doesn't deserve any more reward for time investment. If effort was really a valued skill then it would make sense to record the amount of time spent setting a score (however this could be fabricated and is an awful as fuck idea anyway). To add to that, doing a score faster IS more skillfull, you're clearly more consistent and capable so the logic of "more effort deserves more reward" is completely ass backwards in my opinion.Kheldragar wrote:
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
Sorry if it seemed like I was saying "DT should be more rewarded than FL", that wasn't my intention. I mean that if I put equal amounts of effort into something that displays raw skill (where the amount of effort isn't seen as I do not have FL on) as I do into something that displays commitment only (where the effort is obviously displayed via the fact that FL is used) then why should the effort of one be rewarded while the other isn't. I COMPLETELY understand that FL can be done in a manor that involves skill rather than mindlessly replaying a map until you learn it, but the issue is that you do not need to posses the skill nor can you prove that you have it when you play fl. I can sit and mindlessly retry a map with FL for days and set a score that someone else can produce in hours; it should NOT be assumed that I have the skill to set FL scores efficiently unless the skill is 100% displayed. Considering that the skills required for efficient FL plays are unmeasured currently (as someone could literally brute force their way through the map), the pp for "possibly" displaying those skills should not be rewarded.NixXSkate wrote:
Wall
It's hard to give an example of a fast FL score because they're such a rarity (for a reason). A player can't get a score with FL unless it's really below their max ability. That doesn't mean it's "comfortably in their limits" though, because FL, like other mods, is making it harder for the player, even if the map doesn't physically change. If they can get a score that's close to their max ability, then they're a talented FL player that deserves reward. Of course rrtyui would get the best FL score if he tried, he's the best player playing a map way below his level that's above most others. It's also on a complicated slider filled map which makes it low pp and harder to FL. The awkward mapstyle itself is one of his known specialties as well. We can also add that he would have probably gotten more pp if he just got a score with only HD instead despite it being the "best FL score", but whatever (don't know how much pp his score gives, but I'm assuming based on what I've seen). Anyway, Dungeon's score may be slow for say, an HD+DT score, but with DT+FL it's a totally different story, just look at how hard it is to follow after 230 combo until the end because of its speed. Sure faster bpm FL scores exist, such as Mesita's score on this, a sloppy but nice score, but it's an easy insane, especially in comparison to World End. Despite the mapping being very vanilla, you can tell how hard it is to follow at certain parts, especially around the climax, because of its high bpm. Something like Suklaapallit may be more aim intensive (without FL) and have a higher star rating, but I wouldn't consider it as hard to FC with DT+FL as World End because of the challenge the speed difference adds to following it with FL. I'm focusing on what makes an FL score harder to execute, not harder to memorize, here. Overall I think we somewhat agree that the harder aim maps should be where the pp is coming from with FL, but the problem I have is that what's easier and harder to aim with FL is different than how aim pp is determined, which makes it complicated. You think FL shouldn't reward more for aim, and I think it's wrong for aim pp to be the only factor involved in this calculation.jesus1412 wrote:
The map is quite clearly not hard as hell as an immense amount of people have FC'd it. You talk about all these "fast" maps that need buffing but I've yet to see one example of a score. Dungeons 5.3 star DT score isn't a "fast" score in the slightest, it pales in comparison to scores like rrtyuis Neuronecia score (which is genuinely quite tough for FL but sadly underrated nomod).
I think the best resolution here would be to lower the 50% aim boost that FL currently gets and increase a more generic aspect of it to try and roughly balance it out while buffing gneral FL plays, this way non aim intensive scores would receive a little bit more from FL (i.e, every FL score I can think of) and the aim intensive scores (when they exist) will still have that massive juicy pp pool that people have yet to discover.
As it stands now, there is no FL player (no matter how pro they are with FL) with top ranks full of FL scores, unless they're holding themselves back from getting higher pp scores from non-FL scores or just don't care about pp, so I don't know why you're worrying. I was trying to make it clear that it's only fast aim intensive maps that need to reward more, aka the ones that aren't farmed, barely farmable by skilled players, and barely even exist. Basically its bonus being not just aim, but factors like, the bpm/the amount of time between each jump, the chaos, etc. (It would probably be difficult to do so it probably wouldn't happen, though.) As it is now, I feel that jumpy maps around ~180bpm or spacey streamy maps are benefiting most from the current system since they're generally at a speed where you can process what you're doing with FL well while still having a map with some aim pp in it.jesus1412 wrote:
It also seems that you believe that I think FL will become "farmable", this isn't the case. I think that FL would become a way for people to obtain scores with pp above their physical play ability by no braining a map that's comfortably within their limits. pp reflects PERFORMANCE; if you're not PERFORMING well enough then you shouldn't be rewarded, putting a lot of time into a single map is an AWFUL way to get pp in the long term but it most certainly could allow for people to "perform" above their level in the short term and skew their rank if FL was buffed.
sounds a bit weird to me. playing AR11, even with FL, really cuts down the little time you have for adjusting your aim and making sure you hit the next circle, which makes consistency extremely hard to gain. it probably doesn't matter too much on maps with slower fullscreen jumps, but no one has done anything like that, so eh...NixXSkate wrote:
this might sound weird and sacrilegious, but I think AR11 bonuses could be halved if FL was used since the map has to be memorized.
Woobowiz wrote:
players could FC easy maps with a really low unstable rate and get stupid amounts of pp for the difficulty of the maps they play.
The people who play HR are also the ones who have good acc in the first place.Riince wrote:
point is people get ridiculous pp relative to the difficulty just by being accurate.. i mean i dont see any 80-90% HR fcs worth 300+pp unlike DT...
depends on the map, doesnt even matter about the HP if its 9.8 or 10, drain is mostly determined by how many long spinners or long low density drain parts there are, a map can be hp10 but in reality you lose hp as if its hp6.Kheldragar wrote:
e: Can you even pass a HR song with that acc?
getting <100ur on a 2star map is near impossible, give it a try if you want.Woobowiz wrote:
I'm a little iffy on the whole "Factor in Unstable Rate" thing, on the bright side it provides more maps to farm pp, on the other hand, players could FC easy maps with a really low unstable rate and get stupid amounts of pp for the difficulty of the maps they play.
A lot of people say this, got any example maps?B1rd wrote:
That is a terrible idea, UR should never be factored into pp. I don't mind the thought of low OD getting a small buff, but the reality is the current game meta is high accuracy and not amazing scores (rrtyui), traditional nomod isn't going to be the meta as long as this is the case. But you won't see much od8 in the future, soon nomod will be much more like mods, hard maps will probably be mostly ar/od9.x.
I don't really care that much about OD, FL etc., what really needs buffing is sliders.
There is probably a whole bunch of them but here is onejesus1412 wrote:
A lot of people say this, got any example maps?
Maybe maps like scary rose, big black, adult's toy and talent shredder? I'm sure there are better examples thoughjesus1412 wrote:
A lot of people say this, got any example maps?B1rd wrote:
That is a terrible idea, UR should never be factored into pp. I don't mind the thought of low OD getting a small buff, but the reality is the current game meta is high accuracy and not amazing scores (rrtyui), traditional nomod isn't going to be the meta as long as this is the case. But you won't see much od8 in the future, soon nomod will be much more like mods, hard maps will probably be mostly ar/od9.x.
I don't really care that much about OD, FL etc., what really needs buffing is sliders.
All underrated because of the 1key sections, not the sliders afaik.uberpancake wrote:
Maybe maps like scary rose, big black, adult's toy and talent shredder? I'm sure there are better examples thoughjesus1412 wrote:
A lot of people say this, got any example maps?
Woobowiz wrote:
This may be a stupid suggestion, but is it within reason to "buff" lower OD by weighing the accuracy values of 100's and 50's?
So for OD 6, 100's would be worth 2/5 or 1/2 of a 300 rather than the usual 1/3rd of a 300. Low OD is weak enough for giving less pp even for an SS, why not give it a little push
What do you mean by '1key section'? I think it's safe to say that those maps would be a lot easier if the sliders were circles, I actually tried changing some sliders to circles on Scarlet Rose and the star rating actually increased.jesus1412 wrote:
All underrated because of the 1key sections, not the sliders afaik.uberpancake wrote:
Maybe maps like scary rose, big black, adult's toy and talent shredder? I'm sure there are better examples though
1key sections as in... the entirety of the maps (if you 1key). Very spaced slow streams if that's how you prefer to see them.B1rd wrote:
No one replied because it was a stupid idea, don't just keep posting what you said until someone acknowledges it.What do you mean by '1key section'? I think it's safe to say that those maps would be a lot easier if the sliders were circles, I actually tried changing some sliders to circles on Scarlet Rose and the star rating actually increased.jesus1412 wrote:
All underrated because of the 1key sections, not the sliders afaik.
As for examples, I think you mentioned Neuroncia as one, this would be another example. But I think it's already pretty evident that sliders are underrated, I don't think there is one slider map that gives good pp, every good pp map is almost all circles. They don't give anywhere enough pp for the extra aim and reading you have to do, and of course they give no accuracy pp which is a big deal.
silmarilen wrote:
to give you a better example of underrated sliders: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/128645 or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/102282
i personally think pp doesnt look enough at technical difficulty, it's pretty much only physical ability. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040 are easily 5+ stars in terms of difficulty but only 4.32 stars because it's a slow map with pretty much no spacing
Suggested but I still agree with the idea.jaaakb wrote:
Not sure if this has been suggested before.
Maps could analyzed for difficulty on a combo timeline to determine what combo guarantees you fcd the hard parts. Find the lowest difficulty section, that x combo passes for some amount of combos (25%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% combo for example).
You could make a simple table for every map to weight the pp/combo% they give and buff nonfcs on maps with hard parts in the middle, lower the pp nonfcs in maps with hard parts in the beginning/end give.
^Drezi wrote:
I think he knows that
Which the part with "average aberration" referred to as UR doesnt measure accuracy as mentioned in the definition.osu! Wiki wrote:
This value represents how consistently you time your hits, with lower numbers being better (top players often score below 150). Note that this measures consistency, and not accuracy, so if you're consistent in hitting 15ms early, you'll get similar results to if you're consistent in hitting on time. The formula is essentially the standard deviation of your hit errors (in milliseconds) multiplied by 10.
My personal UR went down by around 30 INSTANTLY just because i switched to good input-devices before I even got used to them. When cheap setups already have a harder time it'd be unfair to give them less reward for something they already have to put more effort in.Default wrote:
UR weighting would be really unfair for those who have cheap setups, I don't think it's a good idea.