Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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NixXSkate

jesus1412 wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

Yes FL is too overpowered



Dungeon getting all these pp from only like 1200 plays
FL isn't buffed properly for fast songs, only for long mild songs, which aren't as hard.
Show me a fast FL map with pp that's too low (you can't unless the initial nomod map is undervalued).
The idea I was trying to show was that Dungeon had to put in at least 50x the work on a map to get a score that was less pp than something he could have gotten easily. Also, there's not many fast FL scores (for a reason). The only people that were able to be rewarded a high amount of pp from FL on a "fast" map (over 200bpm) is takeki3gou on his Symphonic Love score (which he has 8000+ plays on) and Ekoro on Calamity Fortune FL+HD. Just because FL awards more than HD doesn't mean it's strong, it's massively harder than HD, and you need to use both of them for it to be worth any PP because the average person isn't going to get the same accuracy on an FL play as they would on an HD play (so the accuracy would make the FL bonus practically cancel out). As it is now, I feel FL is benefited mostly from the wrong elements.
jesse1412
the average person isn't going to get the same accuracy on an FL play as they would on an HD play
This argument doesn't apply in a performance based system, the "average person" isn't performing well enough if they can't get the accuracy, hence they don't get rewarded. The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill. It's one of the reasons that tag4 maps had to be removed from the pp system, people who used touchscreens were gaining pp without the "skill" of other players, they were doing it through a large amount of effort instead of raw ability. I understand and sympathize that FL doesn't give anywhere near the reward it should relative to the effort it requires, but that's just how it needs to be. I personally think that one day someone will begin FLing jump maps and people will see how strong the mod actually is, but until then I prefer we just believe that it's underpowered.

To me any map I FL I do for fun, just like everything else in the game.
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
jesse1412

Kheldragar wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
I can put more effort into a DT score than a FL score whilst displaying more skill yet I gain no bonus for my added effort, why should fl have a perk based on the fact that it "usually" requires more effort? FL most certainly doesn't always require more effort, it already gets a long map bonus which is essentially rewarding the effort that you put in, it doesn't deserve any more reward for time investment. If effort was really a valued skill then it would make sense to record the amount of time spent setting a score (however this could be fabricated and is an awful as fuck idea anyway). To add to that, doing a score faster IS more skillfull, you're clearly more consistent and capable so the logic of "more effort deserves more reward" is completely ass backwards in my opinion.
Drezi

Kheldragar wrote:

I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
So by that logic OD and CS could go down by 0,0005 for you on a given map every time you play through it to reward effort?

jesus1412 wrote:

The issue with FL is that if it becomes as strong as you want it to be, people can abuse it to gain pp via effort instead of skill.
This is all there is to it.

This is a similar problem to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons since if FL was rewarded too much it'd incentivise playing it only to gain a shorter term boost in rank by putting in effort for each individual FL score, but other than gaining ranks through FL, the rate of improvement would be slower for everyone who participates in this grind instead of focusing on improving their general skill. The game should not promote that.

Oh btw being able to memorize a map and play it with that obscured and flashing screen IS a skill (and there is a certain degree of scaling reward already), but unlike the other mods, you have to put in a lot of extra effort for each individual score you want to set, and there's no way to quantify your skill at memorizing maps and playing them with FL. The resulting performance does not tell how much effort went into that given score, while if anything, being able to pull off FL scores with minimal time investment would be the skill aspect here that could be rewarded more, proportional to the "quickness of memorisation", since that's a general and differentiating skill, which you might be able to develop, just like the others, but again, it's pretty much impossible to quantify in pp.
NixXSkate

jesus1412 wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

I think being able to put in a large amount of effort is a skill in itself.
I can put more effort into a DT score than a FL score whilst displaying more skill yet I gain no bonus for my added effort, why should fl have a perk based on the fact that it "usually" requires more effort? FL most certainly doesn't always require more effort, it already gets a long map bonus which is essentially rewarding the effort that you put in, it doesn't deserve any more reward for time investment. If effort was really a valued skill then it would make sense to record the amount of time spent setting a score (however this could be fabricated and is an awful as fuck idea anyway). To add to that, doing a score faster IS more skillfull, you're clearly more consistent and capable so the logic of "more effort deserves more reward" is completely ass backwards in my opinion.
Nobody is saying FL should be worth more than DT, in fact, my complaint was that fast FL scores are underrated, NOT mild long ones. Memorization is also a skill in itself anyway. Just like finger speed, some people are just naturally better than others, but everyone improves with practice. People like BluOxy can FL songs without much practice from playing it so much. loli_milk had really fast recall, eyes, and decisive reactions that made him good at FL.

In some ways you're unknowingly agreeing with me. You're worried about FL becoming farmable for pp (which will never happen on high pp DT maps unless the person is literally a savant), yet as it is now, FL is being rewarded for mostly length, and I'm complaining that it's underrated for more physically hard songs. You say Dungeon "isn't performing well enough" to get the FL bonus, but the real feat was the full combo. It would be like if _index got a 97% HR FC on some DragonForce map but WWW got more pp from a 99.8% no mod. Going back to Dungeon's DT+FL score, which is obviously more impressive than all of the other scores on the set, it has 15pp less than a DT+HD SS. Since 1 100 is worth 6pp less, that basically means that Dungeon's bonus for using FL on a fast map over hidden was only worth about 4.5 100s worth of pp, meaning that he would have to get only 2 3 100s if he wanted slightly more pp without using hidden. How in the world is that a strong mod? (Math might be a bit off but yolo Looks like the FL is actually worth around 19pp over HD.) This is a fast FL map, and the difference between a jumpy 180bpm FL map and a jumpy 220bpm FL map is like AR10 vs AR10.86. (Yes, you have to actually look at the notes and have a thinking process with FL, it's not just pure muscle memory.) Nobody DT+FLs Koigokoro for a reason, because it's hard as hell.

You can complain that patience is a huge factor, but nobody wants to get pp by playing a map thousands and thousands of times like takeki3gou, how the hell is that easy pp? You could reach total new levels with HR from 8000 plays for Pete's sake. (Also please keep in mind I'm talking about fast FL scores still, not long ones.) It's not like the amount of pp you receive decreases with your playcount on each song, patience has always been rewarded in the system, if you can keep retrying for a good accuracy or add hidden without tilting (which I can't) you can rake in the pps. And if the speed of jumps was more of a factor for FL bonus than length, then you would have to be a good player to FL the map anyway, because being able to FL something means you have to at least be able to high combo it consistently. I think it's nuts that you think people with unnatural amounts of patience would make it comparable to a touchscreen player playing TAG4, because it's the difference of 500 plays vs. 10,000 plays, not a few plays vs. impossible (I'm sure majority of high ranked players could do this if they put enough plays), and either way, the player has to improve in more ways than simply memorization in those plays if he wants to full combo the map. This can't turn into ppv1 where it's just "oh hey a map that rewards pp, I'll just FL it to get more" because it's not HD+FL vs. HD+DT, it's DT+FL vs. HD+DT.

The amount of processing a player would have to go through on a jumpy 180bpm FL vs a jumpy 220bpm FL is a huge step, even if the 180bpm has jumps that are quite bigger. The player has to actually look at what they're doing and where their cursor is and make quick decisive movements based on them, and on top of it, might not even be able to see whether or not they're hitting 100s (or be too preoccupied to understand how to adjust their timing). It's not just "play until you know where everything is", it is skill, it's playing in the moment, and it's not nearly as farmable as you think. Anyone that would be able to benefit from fast FL scores greatly would deserve to be rewarded in some way. I'm not saying to "make FL worth more", I'm saying that FL is a bit more complicated than length and aim, and shouldn't just be some multiplier, because some slower, aim heavy maps are being a *bit* overvalued (most I think are pretty fair though), but fast paced maps (where FL is the most impressive) are being undervalued. I think HD is what's throwing FL most out of balance since FL changes certain ways HD works/is processed.

Sorry this is a messy argument, but I really don't know how to organize my thoughts.
GhostFrog
The big issue with trying to reward flashlight scores for how difficult they are individually is that it would overrate someone who used flashlight on a lot of scores. I agree with NixXSkate about flashlight on fast maps (I suck at FL so my opinion is pretty meaningless, but I'm giving it anyway), but having flashlight depend on the speed of the map would probably require a separate difficulty calculation for mod combinations involving flashlight, which would double the number of difficulty values calculated and I'm not sure if tom would be willing to do that.
jesse1412

NixXSkate wrote:

Wall
Sorry if it seemed like I was saying "DT should be more rewarded than FL", that wasn't my intention. I mean that if I put equal amounts of effort into something that displays raw skill (where the amount of effort isn't seen as I do not have FL on) as I do into something that displays commitment only (where the effort is obviously displayed via the fact that FL is used) then why should the effort of one be rewarded while the other isn't. I COMPLETELY understand that FL can be done in a manor that involves skill rather than mindlessly replaying a map until you learn it, but the issue is that you do not need to posses the skill nor can you prove that you have it when you play fl. I can sit and mindlessly retry a map with FL for days and set a score that someone else can produce in hours; it should NOT be assumed that I have the skill to set FL scores efficiently unless the skill is 100% displayed. Considering that the skills required for efficient FL plays are unmeasured currently (as someone could literally brute force their way through the map), the pp for "possibly" displaying those skills should not be rewarded.

Also if you think that a 50% aim bonus PLUS an ADDITIONAL bonus for map length (beyond the already overly strong one) isn't enough for playing FL then we've met a MASSIVE disagreement.

It also seems that you believe that I think FL will become "farmable", this isn't the case. I think that FL would become a way for people to obtain scores with pp above their physical play ability by no braining a map that's comfortably within their limits. pp reflects PERFORMANCE; if you're not PERFORMING well enough then you shouldn't be rewarded, putting a lot of time into a single map is an AWFUL way to get pp in the long term but it most certainly could allow for people to "perform" above their level in the short term and skew their rank if FL was buffed.

Nobody FLs koigokoro because: It's BORING AS FUCK.
It takes FUCKING ages.
They could do 10 other pp scores in the time it takes them to FL it.

The map is quite clearly not hard as hell as an immense amount of people have FC'd it. You talk about all these "fast" maps that need buffing but I've yet to see one example of a score. Dungeons 5.3 star DT score isn't a "fast" score in the slightest, it pales in comparison to scores like rrtyuis Neuronecia score (which is genuinely quite tough for FL but sadly underrated nomod).

I think the best resolution here would be to lower the 50% aim boost that FL currently gets and increase a more generic aspect of it to try and roughly balance it out while buffing gneral FL plays, this way non aim intensive scores would receive a little bit more from FL (i.e, every FL score I can think of) and the aim intensive scores (when they exist) will still have that massive juicy pp pool that people have yet to discover.
NixXSkate

jesus1412 wrote:

The map is quite clearly not hard as hell as an immense amount of people have FC'd it. You talk about all these "fast" maps that need buffing but I've yet to see one example of a score. Dungeons 5.3 star DT score isn't a "fast" score in the slightest, it pales in comparison to scores like rrtyuis Neuronecia score (which is genuinely quite tough for FL but sadly underrated nomod).

I think the best resolution here would be to lower the 50% aim boost that FL currently gets and increase a more generic aspect of it to try and roughly balance it out while buffing gneral FL plays, this way non aim intensive scores would receive a little bit more from FL (i.e, every FL score I can think of) and the aim intensive scores (when they exist) will still have that massive juicy pp pool that people have yet to discover.
It's hard to give an example of a fast FL score because they're such a rarity (for a reason). A player can't get a score with FL unless it's really below their max ability. That doesn't mean it's "comfortably in their limits" though, because FL, like other mods, is making it harder for the player, even if the map doesn't physically change. If they can get a score that's close to their max ability, then they're a talented FL player that deserves reward. Of course rrtyui would get the best FL score if he tried, he's the best player playing a map way below his level that's above most others. It's also on a complicated slider filled map which makes it low pp and harder to FL. The awkward mapstyle itself is one of his known specialties as well. We can also add that he would have probably gotten more pp if he just got a score with only HD instead despite it being the "best FL score", but whatever (don't know how much pp his score gives, but I'm assuming based on what I've seen). Anyway, Dungeon's score may be slow for say, an HD+DT score, but with DT+FL it's a totally different story, just look at how hard it is to follow after 230 combo until the end because of its speed. Sure faster bpm FL scores exist, such as Mesita's score on this, a sloppy but nice score, but it's an easy insane, especially in comparison to World End. Despite the mapping being very vanilla, you can tell how hard it is to follow at certain parts, especially around the climax, because of its high bpm. Something like Suklaapallit may be more aim intensive (without FL) and have a higher star rating, but I wouldn't consider it as hard to FC with DT+FL as World End because of the challenge the speed difference adds to following it with FL. I'm focusing on what makes an FL score harder to execute, not harder to memorize, here. Overall I think we somewhat agree that the harder aim maps should be where the pp is coming from with FL, but the problem I have is that what's easier and harder to aim with FL is different than how aim pp is determined, which makes it complicated. You think FL shouldn't reward more for aim, and I think it's wrong for aim pp to be the only factor involved in this calculation.

jesus1412 wrote:

It also seems that you believe that I think FL will become "farmable", this isn't the case. I think that FL would become a way for people to obtain scores with pp above their physical play ability by no braining a map that's comfortably within their limits. pp reflects PERFORMANCE; if you're not PERFORMING well enough then you shouldn't be rewarded, putting a lot of time into a single map is an AWFUL way to get pp in the long term but it most certainly could allow for people to "perform" above their level in the short term and skew their rank if FL was buffed.
As it stands now, there is no FL player (no matter how pro they are with FL) with top ranks full of FL scores, unless they're holding themselves back from getting higher pp scores from non-FL scores or just don't care about pp, so I don't know why you're worrying. I was trying to make it clear that it's only fast aim intensive maps that need to reward more, aka the ones that aren't farmed, barely farmable by skilled players, and barely even exist. Basically its bonus being not just aim, but factors like, the bpm/the amount of time between each jump, the chaos, etc. (It would probably be difficult to do so it probably wouldn't happen, though.) As it is now, I feel that jumpy maps around ~180bpm or spacey streamy maps are benefiting most from the current system since they're generally at a speed where you can process what you're doing with FL well while still having a map with some aim pp in it.

Also this might sound weird and sacrilegious, but I think AR11 bonuses could be halved if FL was used since the map has to be memorized.
-GN

NixXSkate wrote:

this might sound weird and sacrilegious, but I think AR11 bonuses could be halved if FL was used since the map has to be memorized.
sounds a bit weird to me. playing AR11, even with FL, really cuts down the little time you have for adjusting your aim and making sure you hit the next circle, which makes consistency extremely hard to gain. it probably doesn't matter too much on maps with slower fullscreen jumps, but no one has done anything like that, so eh...

i think it balances out as a whole.
Woobowiz
This may be a stupid suggestion, but is it within reason to "buff" lower OD by weighing the accuracy values of 100's and 50's?

So for OD 6, 100's would be worth 2/5 or 1/2 of a 300 rather than the usual 1/3rd of a 300. Low OD is weak enough for giving less pp even for an SS, why not give it a little push
Vuelo Eluko
the issue with low OD isn't in 100's/50's.. it's in that its low OD. The map is at fault, you can SS wi-fi bridge which is pretty impressive since its 5.55 star map, but it's only worth 190pp because mappers are scared to use high od, most old hard modless maps arent played anymore because od8 is worth crap for the effort at that difficulty.

for this reason i think a better buff to low OD has always been to count unstable rate/error and consider the score to be worth more if it could have been high accuracy on higher OD.

too bad this would only retroactively impact scores on the top 50 with replay data, 99.9% of players get screwed by this.
Woobowiz
I'm a little iffy on the whole "Factor in Unstable Rate" thing, on the bright side it provides more maps to farm pp, on the other hand, players could FC easy maps with a really low unstable rate and get stupid amounts of pp for the difficulty of the maps they play.
Vuelo Eluko

Woobowiz wrote:

players could FC easy maps with a really low unstable rate and get stupid amounts of pp for the difficulty of the maps they play.
Yuudachi-kun
HR pp is related to the OD/CS and not UR?
Vuelo Eluko
point is people get ridiculous pp with it relative to the difficulty just by being accurate.. i mean i dont see any 80-90% HR fcs worth 300+pp unlike DT...

thats what PERFORMANCE is though

my suggestion just kinda makes nomod similar to hardrock just in terms of od not circle size difficulty modifiers..
Yuudachi-kun

Riince wrote:

point is people get ridiculous pp relative to the difficulty just by being accurate.. i mean i dont see any 80-90% HR fcs worth 300+pp unlike DT...
The people who play HR are also the ones who have good acc in the first place.

e: Can you even pass a HR song with that acc?
Vuelo Eluko
what is your point? i was just letting woob know that "getting ridiculous pp for the difficulty of the map" is already a thing that happens, oftentimes with DT too, and that it shouldn't be a bad thing to take nomod along for the ride so that people actually start playing it again, not let it sit and rot because mappers all made them too hard for mods but too low od to be rewarding in a system that came out much later.

Kheldragar wrote:

e: Can you even pass a HR song with that acc?
depends on the map, doesnt even matter about the HP if its 9.8 or 10, drain is mostly determined by how many long spinners or long low density drain parts there are, a map can be hp10 but in reality you lose hp as if its hp6.

you can pass catastrophe with a C with hard rock and thats 9.8.
silmarilen

Woobowiz wrote:

I'm a little iffy on the whole "Factor in Unstable Rate" thing, on the bright side it provides more maps to farm pp, on the other hand, players could FC easy maps with a really low unstable rate and get stupid amounts of pp for the difficulty of the maps they play.
getting <100ur on a 2star map is near impossible, give it a try if you want.
B1rd
That is a terrible idea, UR should never be factored into pp. I don't mind the thought of low OD getting a small buff, but the reality is the current game meta is high accuracy and not amazing scores (rrtyui), traditional nomod isn't going to be the meta as long as this is the case. But you won't see much od8 in the future, soon nomod will be much more like mods, hard maps will probably be mostly ar/od9.x.

I don't really care that much about OD, FL etc., what really needs buffing is sliders.
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