This is only about switching between touchscreen and non-touchscreen (cursor input) midgame. And while that's easy for us to see by looking at a replay, as I understand it's hard for a computer to detect with 100% certainty, so it's purely hypothetical anyway.

As said before something which isn't 100% certainty is like it's 0% certainty. As a programmer I can assure that something client-side (on the side of the player) is not 100% verifiable since only data are sent at the end and they can be altered anyway.

x

AR11 buff please

edit: wow i was way off, tom's ask.fm proved that.

Riince wrote:

that speed buff <3 exactly +50 pp, i wonder what my scores will look like once they're re-weighted...

Yay for 3000pp.

R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O

XgenSlayer wrote:

R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O

Seems like TV Size doesn't pay off anymore.

I can't wait for rrtyui playing a map.

[-Cloud-] wrote:

XgenSlayer wrote:

R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O

Seems like TV Size doesn't pay off anymore.

I can't wait for rrtyui playing a map.

Doesn't make any sense since nothing in the changelogs was said about nerfing tv sizes. if anything they wanted to nerf longer maps. they just nerfed ar10.3 since the scaling starts at 10.3 now which started 10 before. this means they nerfed all dt scores on ar 9 maps.

Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.

[-Cloud-] wrote:

Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.

How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please. TV Size doesn't automatically equal AR9. On the other hand let me add they buffed smaller cs which makes HR scores on CS5 maps more interesting. Again, does that mean Tv sizes are worth less in general? No. In fact, CS5 HR plays are weighted stronger.

The changes also resulted in a smaller pp reward for www's Sana DT play. Now he lost 15pp of 506. Can you really say it didn't pay off? 3% less pp not worth anymore? Well...

Infevo wrote:

[-Cloud-] wrote:

Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.

How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please. TV Size doesn't automatically equal AR9. On the other hand let me add they buffed smaller cs which makes HR scores on CS5 maps more interesting. Again, does that mean Tv sizes are worth less in general? No. In fact, CS5 HR plays are weighted stronger.

AR9 TV Sizes + DT are indeed worth slightly less in general, at least that's what it looks like, 513 -> 489pp on hoshizora for example, despite ALL maps giving more pp overall.

On his grind to #1, hvick played mostly TV Size DT (Not only, but a lot) and now he's basically completely nerfed.
In case you didn't get it yet. hvick spammed a shitton 10.3, that's it. DH will drop soon aynways.

[-Cloud-] wrote:

On his grind to #1, hvick played mostly TV Size DT (Not only, but a lot) and now he's basically completely nerfed.
In case you didn't get it yet. hvick spammed a shitton 10.3, that's it. DH will drop soon aynways.

Totally aware of his plays. It is just your generalization is not right as you made it. Some of the best plays are still short versions/short maps/tv sizes with AR9 and dt. They didn't get any less impressive than before the update. It is just they balanced dt out with hr and I explained in how far.

edit: sayo is also probably gonna drop as well once he is gonna get calced. also notice how many ranks azer went up considering how much hr he plays.

You asked about his drop in the rankings, not about how impressive his plays are. They are indeed impressive, but the played way too much of short AR9, which got nerfed right now. So it's no wonder he lost that much PP.

[-Cloud-] wrote:

You asked about his drop in the rankings, not about how impressive his plays are. They are indeed impressive, but the played way too much of short AR9, which got nerfed right now. So it's no wonder he lost that much PP.

No, I didnt ask anything about him dropping in particular. I wanted you to give reasons for why short sized maps would not "pay off" anymore which is plainly wrong considering my reasoning.

How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please.

He spammed shitty TV Sizes and now he lost fucking pp due to the 10.3 nerf. What's not understandable here? I just answered your question.

[-Cloud-] wrote:

shitty

hej some of those maps are pretty fun but i agree overrated more often than not. of course its worth mentioning that a 5 star tv size has more measured difficulty than any equal duration segment of, say, a 4-5 minute 5 star map

[-Cloud-] wrote:

How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please.

He spammed shitty TV Sizes and now he lost fucking pp due to the 10.3 nerf. What's not understandable here? I just answered your question.

ok, man nvm. let's make a cut right here.

Lets not degenerate into thinking that PP is the true absolute way of determining skill, remember that it doesn't account at all for reading difficulty

pretty much half the top 10 have a shit-ton of good/incredible scores on underrated maps, hvick included

OT: The cs buff is welcome but it only affects the aim component. I know it's probably hard to fix with the way map difficulty is calculated but that means that maps with tiny circles and very spaced streams don't get benefited from it as much as they should

Examples would be snow storm euphoria
Ievan Polkka Trance Remix
Rubik's Cube
Guillaume Tell
Dragonforce maps... etc

Edit: Just realized the same could be said about HD

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/182007?m=0

I FC'd this map with 98.83% acc and no mods. I got 82pp. Then I FC'd it with HD and 98.37% acc. The HD play was worth the same amount as the nomod play. It would be okay if my accuracy would've been a lot worse than the nomod play but the difference is only 0.5%. I find this really stupid since there's not a single reason why someone would like to FC the map with HD when you get no pp at all from it even though it is harder to do. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

Zemroid wrote:

only 0.5%.

um 0.5% is a lot...

Zemroid wrote:

not a single reason why someone would like to FC the map with HD when you get no pp at all from it even though it is harder to do. Can someone explain the logic behind this?

if you dont get way worse acc like that, its a decent bit more PP, but obviously not that much since it doesnt actually increase difficulty of the map just adds a small aim pp bonus.

.5% is only a lot if you have good acc.

Or when you're comparing modless and hidden plays.

Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.

Zemroid wrote:

Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.

Hidden is very well worth it on aim intensive maps as it gives a flat bonus to your aim pp. This means it's especially rewarding on jumpy maps. The map you played is probably not very aim intensive, and thus hidden has a very small effect on your final pp. On easier maps accuracy is the most important aspect as far as pp goes I believe.

koromo wrote:

Zemroid wrote:

Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.

Hidden is very well worth it on aim intensive maps as it gives a flat bonus to your aim pp. This means it's especially rewarding on jumpy maps. The map you played is probably not very aim intensive, and thus hidden has a very small effect on your final pp. On easier maps accuracy is the most important aspect as far as pp goes I believe.

1-2 100's is also huge on short maps where they have a big effect on overall acc, had i not gotten 2 100's on natsu no hi, that play probably would have jumped up by like 10-15pp.

#1st score is worth 170pp

the #2 score is worth 189pp ( 1x miss )

lost about 150~ ranks from improving this score ( my pp went down to 2974 from 2993 )

feels like i don`t even have to get a full combo on any songs anymore if accuracy is more important, a full combo should be worth more

Tom,you think that accuracy is very important?I am 16k player,i NEVER gain SS rank in my life.I started to play from hard's and insanes(i dont ever play easy\normal maps).I can't understand WHY accuracy is so important.
When i was 1000 pp try to found 2000pp players and fc their nomod maps and gain less pp than they are because of accuracy.Now i have 2500 pp.Maps that people with same rank has are too easy for me,problem is the same with accuracy.
Now i pick up maps of players with the same rank,FC this maps with hr for 90% and gain LESS pp than they are.Or i just find 3000-3500pp players and pick up their maps and fc the same maps but for 90% again.You would say that "osu is rythm game,
accuracy is the most important thing im rhythm game" But on OD>10 there is no difference in rhythm between 100 and 300?Yeah in high od there is no rhythm at all.If i record the sound of 99% OD 10 play and the sound of 95% play you would not
hear the difference!Rhythm is the sound of your hitsounds&keyboard mapped with music and at od>10 it is completely the same on 90-95% but PP system does not think so.This main issue is that you can FARM easy maps on fullmod or just
gain SS on hard maps and have the same PP as you get for 90% on insane map with HR(example 104 pp for https://osu.ppy.sh/b/75071 kaneko's normal 104pp for SS fullmod 290 combo).Why my HR plays are worth the same as easy plays for SS
or hards for SS nomod?Players who farm accuracy on easy maps can't play on high speed,the cant read hard insane maps patterns,the even shouldn't know how to jump or stream,the should not read high AR,just accuracy!
Theoretically you can gain my rank playing maps like that for accuracy.Or system should be based only on accuracy like in osu!mania,fullcombo should not be so important and slidermisses too.Or combo based system where 1%pp=1%accuracy with some bonus for SS.
Example of players,that play on higher rank because of accuracy (https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4982855 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Cooperca).I am personally started 10.33 learning to gain 200pp scores because accuracy cost more on 10.33 and high od,that means that i should
not worry about accuracy and would get about 200pp for 90%.

The second issue is HD mod.In accuracy-based system accuracy is everything as i said later.HD is a mod which helps you to get more 100s and 50s,basically mod which helps to get worth accuracy.This mod is the hardest mod in game.
But you get about 6% bonus for that?This mod would give more bonus because its really hard to get accuracy with this mod.So the main issue that this mod is no worth to play with,because its about 40% harder to play with it and bonus is only 6%.

Another issue is the length of the song.Long songs above 1000 combo does not give huge bonus.For example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161787 gives 540pp for HDDT(505 combo 270 bpm 57 seconds,a lot of people FC that map with dt).
And this song https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 give's 450pp for 99% nomod,478pp 99% with HD and 573pp for 99% with HR(260 bpm,6.24 minutes and 2645 combo) no one ever FC that song(rrtyui got slidermiss,Legendre got banned)

That mean's that songs with high combo and high risk to get miss\slidermiss\100 or 50 does not worth anything.Its easier to farm 500 combo maps with Dt for 1 minute.I think that 500 combo maps should get the same pp as 500 combo pass on 1000 combo map.
The last problem are slidermiss.I know that your system does not rate slider difficulty(skystar,val0108 maps and other maps with hard sliders does not worth anything over their difficulty)But for slidermiss in the middle you loose
ALL of the your PP!That means that slidermisses should be removed from game(you would get 100s for slidermisses) or combo should not be important.If sliders are not rated properly the should not affect to the amount of PP.

Stream farming should be nerfed(there are a lot of players mostly asian players who can stream 200bpm as they start playing osu,i can't stream over 150 bpm at 16k rank and 1 year of playing).There are a lot of maps like that(https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116128),
which you can FC using doubletap(press z and x at the same time) or tap technique and this maps gives a lot of pp.
Conclusion:
1.Playing hard maps for lower accuracy should give more pp than playing easy maps for good accuracy (90%with HR should give like SS nomod) 1%pp=1%accuracy
2.HD mod should worth it or should not affect on pp(like in osu!mania),just score mod
3.Playing long maps should worth it because of risk to get miss and loose combo
4.Sliders should be rated properly or should not affect on amount of pp because they are not rated properly.
5.Hard patterns should be rated,there are a lot of maps with hard patterns that gives nothing over their difficulty
6.Stream farming should be nerfed

Aureal3D wrote:

I am 16k player,i NEVER gain SS rank in my life.I started to play from hard's and insanes(i dont ever play easy\normal maps).I can't understand WHY accuracy is so important.

The fact you never got an SS rank kinda shows it's not so easy to achieve, which must be the reason why it's rewarding. Usually when I get over 99% I still mess up some parts of the song and am not really satisfied with my play, so think about how many mistakes you make when you get 90% plays and ask yourself if you really think they should be worth a lot.

Aureal3D wrote:

If i record the sound of 99% OD 10 play and the sound of 95% play you would not hear the difference!

Actually I'm pretty sure you would, but I think it depends on how offbeat the 100s are.

Aureal3D wrote:

This main issue is that you can FARM easy maps on fullmod or just
gain SS on hard maps and have the same PP as you get for 90% on insane map with HR

Doing this will not get you very far though since pp are weighted and there's a point where you don't gain a single pp from SSing hards anymore. HR makes accuracy more difficult so it obviously won't be very rewarding if you aren't accurate.

Aureal3D wrote:

Or combo based system where 1%pp=1%accuracy with some bonus for SS.

This is a horrible idea. Let's say you would get 530pp for an SS on Freedom Dive with a 30pp SS bonus so 500pp for 99%, this would mean if you hit only 50s and get about 15% acc, you'd still gain over 400p for the play. The way the current pp system works is quite similar to what you described, but the pp you get for 1% acc will be higher the closer you get to SS, which makes way more sense.

Aureal3D wrote:

Example of players,that play on higher rank because of accuracy (https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4982855 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Cooperca)

His accuracy is worse than yours, so unless I've misunderstood something, this makes no sense and contradicts everything you've said so far.

Aureal3D wrote:

The second issue is HD mod.In accuracy-based system accuracy is everything as i said later.HD is a mod which helps you to get more 100s and 50s,basically mod which helps to get worth accuracy.This mod is the hardest mod in game.
But you get about 6% bonus for that?This mod would give more bonus because its really hard to get accuracy with this mod.So the main issue that this mod is no worth to play with,because its about 40% harder to play with it and bonus is only 6%.

Unlike HR and DT, HD usually doesn't make things harder at all, it just makes the game different. HD has no influence on any of the difficulty settings, so once you are used to playing with it, it shouldn't really be any harder than playing without mods. You could therefore say it's actually the easiest mod in the game once you're used to it. Try playing a map with only HR, only DT and then only HD, your best play will probably be the HD one. I could be wrong about this though because I never really play HD so you could say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Aureal3D wrote:

Stream farming should be nerfed(there are a lot of players mostly asian players who can stream 200bpm as they start playing osu,i can't stream over 150 bpm at 16k rank and 1 year of playing).There are a lot of maps like that(https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116128),
which you can FC using doubletap(press z and x at the same time) or tap technique and this maps gives a lot of pp.

If some asian guy is good at streaming 200bpm from day one and you're still bad at it even after a year of playing, he's obviously lucky to have that skill from the start but that doesn't mean you should complain because it's unfair. Just deal with it and take the time to learn streams, there will always be people who are naturally better than you at certain things. I could say jumps are overrated because an FC on Granat gives more pp than SSing Macuilxochitl which to me is a lot harder, but that's just because my aim is better than my streaming. If you think the map you linked gives a lot of pp and can easily be FCd, go ahead and do it instead of complaining, otherwise you just seem like you're mad because you're not good at certain things that happen to be rewarding. It reminds me of people who complain about DT "farming" and call it easy but aren't actually able to play with the mod at all.

Purple wrote:

Lets not degenerate into thinking that PP is the true absolute way of determining skill, remember that it doesn't account at all for reading difficulty

pretty much half the top 10 have a shit-ton of good/incredible scores on underrated maps, hvick included

OT: The cs buff is welcome but it only affects the aim component. I know it's probably hard to fix with the way map difficulty is calculated but that means that maps with tiny circles and very spaced streams don't get benefited from it as much as they should

Examples would be snow storm euphoria
Ievan Polkka Trance Remix
Rubik's Cube
Guillaume Tell
Dragonforce maps... etc

Edit: Just realized the same could be said about HD

tiny circles and spaced streams not buffed enough? eh? https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384?m=0 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/111302?m=0

@Aureal3D
Most of your post is you complaining that people who can do things you can't get rewarded for it or that you aren't getting rewarded for doing a mediocre job on things (HD, long maps), but since woqx already covered most of that, I would just like to point out 2 things you said that made some sense:

-Sliders are, in fact underrated right now. This is a well-known problem. Removing them from pp entirely is a terrible solution though...better they're worth too little than that they're worth nothing. I posted a suggestion a page ago of something that might help sliders out a bit but it got lost and ignored. If you have any ideas of a way of valuing sliders properly without making repeat sliders and sliderstreams worth too much, you should suggest it here to help out tom.

-Pattern difficulty is high up on the list of "things we would like to have, but that are very difficult to implement". Like sliders, if you can come up with a good way to deal with pattern difficulty, you should post your suggestions in this thread.


A lot of problems and complaints have been brought up in the 133 pages of this thread. Obviously you can't be expected to read the entire thing to see which things have and haven't been suggested, but at this point, complaints about problems that have been around since this system was implemented aren't really that useful unless you also give suggestions of how to fix them.

B1rd wrote:

tiny circles and spaced streams not buffed enough? eh? https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384?m=0 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/111302?m=0

The first map you showed is a prime example of something that would give jack shit PP without 98.5%+ accuracy

Pretty much every HR score is like that in the moment, you get the deserved PP for it but only if you get very good accuracy, no matter how hard it is to FC the song. In that sense, I do think accuracy is slightly overrated, but it kind has to be ATM because otherwise HR would be completely worthless.

I mean, a good example of why this is a problem is Airman with HR. It should give about 600 PP no matter what, but it doesn't, even if you have 99% accuracy, just because BD didn't put enough streams in it.

If I got it right that pp assumes the minimum movement for sliders, then why isn't it halfway inbetween min and max?

I haven't laughed like this in years. I love you Aureal3D.

Purple wrote:

The first map you showed is a prime example of something that would give jack shit PP without 98.5%+ accuracy

Pretty much every HR score is like that in the moment, you get the deserved PP for it but only if you get very good accuracy, no matter how hard it is to FC the song. In that sense, I do think accuracy is slightly overrated, but it kind has to be ATM because otherwise HR would be completely worthless.

I mean, a good example of why this is a problem is Airman with HR. It should give about 600 PP no matter what, but it doesn't, even if you have 99% accuracy, just because BD didn't put enough streams in it.

I think low acc plays should give a little more pp. But still, high acc is a prerequisite for HR, you can't just use it for AR10 and small CS and complain shit acc FC's don't give enough pp. Airman HR should give nowhere near 600pp, it's not that hard. For bad acc, maybe 460-70 IMO.
Oh and Tom said that he will be nerfing the length bonus for high circle streamy maps.

Kheldragar wrote:

If I got it right that pp assumes the minimum movement for sliders, then why isn't it halfway inbetween min and max?

good question...

DT-sama wrote:

I haven't laughed like this in years. I love you Aureal3D.

New players these days lol.

B1rd wrote:

Airman HR should give nowhere near 600pp, it's not that hard.

Yeah ok

I think it's the hardest thing anyone has ever pulled off in this game (aside from Maffalda DT). It should definitely give way more than Remote Control DT. But it doesn't, because CS is somehow still underrated.

sorry I'm gonna have to say skill wise overall, remote control DT is > airman HR. 1) being that it has crazy 250 bpm full screen jumps (for people who have experienced playing >240 bpm, they will know how much harder it really is compared to under say 220 bpm. Above that becomes exponentially harder) and second being 10.3 ar

Purple wrote:

I think it's the hardest thing anyone has ever pulled off in this game (aside from Maffalda DT)

Far from it. It's nothing but aim, there's very little demanded from the player from either speed (200bpm is nothing) accuracy (low BPM + simple 1/2 spam and one 200bpm stream is not hard for acc even at high OD) and reading (low density, low complexity). I'd say remote control DT is harder because it's more demanding in that respect.

Probably one of the most impressive plays in terms of aim alone, but overall? not close imo.

Well ok I guess there's some differing opinions on the matter, I thought the number of FC's in one map vs the other made it obvious which one was more difficult to get, but apparently not. Honestly I don't really *like* Airman as a map, even with my 600 plays on it, so that may have something to do with it.