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There are many maps that can give over 500pp with mods, so the amount of pp people can get is limited by their own skill.xasuma wrote:
I'll bring up a problem with the current system.
It's already happening to top players.
Everytime you get pp, it becomes harder to get more. At some point, getting pp will be so hard, that players will be stuck at a certain pp. You can see this happening to players like hvick225. Where his top scores are so hard that in order to top them, it is extremely extremely hard. What happens when (IF) he gets to 10k pp. How is he (or anyone) goign to gain pp ? Anything below 500 pp will be worth almost nothing.
At that point they will be "stuck" . If it's not at 10k pp, it won't be much more than that. I understand people improve, but honestly no one can ever get to 15k pp or something that high..
What happens then? (soon)
Everyone will just catch up to the first pp's , and the rank will become a big stuck ranking ,where the pp difference is very small between all crazy players. (assuming they get to a level that is very hard to top).
Hopefully I explained it okay.. But anyways, what happens then?
I understand what you're saying except the limiting factor would be the players skill, there's still plenty of maps + mod combos available that could get you pp providing you're good enough of a player. A player can hit a wall at any pp, you just need to improve and get better scores. Although imo improving just gets harder and harder the better you are but that isn't a flaw with the system.xasuma wrote:
I'll bring up a problem with the current system.
It's already happening to top players.
Everytime you get pp, it becomes harder to get more. At some point, getting pp will be so hard, that players will be stuck at a certain pp. You can see this happening to players like hvick225. Where his top scores are so hard that in order to top them, it is extremely extremely hard. What happens when (IF) he gets to 10k pp. How is he (or anyone) goign to gain pp ? Anything below 500 pp will be worth almost nothing.
At that point they will be "stuck" . If it's not at 10k pp, it won't be much more than that. I understand people improve, but honestly no one can ever get to 15k pp or something that high..
What happens then? (soon)
Everyone will just catch up to the first pp's , and the rank will become a big stuck ranking ,where the pp difference is very small between all crazy players. (assuming they get to a level that is very hard to top).
Hopefully I explained it okay.. But anyways, what happens then?
this is never going to happen and you know itxasuma wrote:
I'll bring up a problem with the current system.
It's already happening to top players.
Everytime you get pp, it becomes harder to get more. At some point, getting pp will be so hard, that players will be stuck at a certain pp. You can see this happening to players like hvick225. Where his top scores are so hard that in order to top them, it is extremely extremely hard. What happens when (IF) he gets to 10k pp. How is he (or anyone) goign to gain pp ? Anything below 500 pp will be worth almost nothing.
At that point they will be "stuck" . If it's not at 10k pp, it won't be much more than that. I understand people improve, but honestly no one can ever get to 15k pp or something that high..
What happens then? (soon)
Everyone will just catch up to the first pp's , and the rank will become a big stuck ranking ,where the pp difference is very small between all crazy players. (assuming they get to a level that is very hard to top).
Hopefully I explained it okay.. But anyways, what happens then?
No need to be top100 to reach that point.xasuma wrote:
I'll bring up a problem with the current system.
It's already happening to top players.
Everytime you get pp, it becomes harder to get more. At some point, getting pp will be so hard, that players will be stuck at a certain pp. You can see this happening to players like hvick225. Where his top scores are so hard that in order to top them, it is extremely extremely hard. What happens when (IF) he gets to 10k pp. How is he (or anyone) goign to gain pp ? Anything below 500 pp will be worth almost nothing.
At that point they will be "stuck" . If it's not at 10k pp, it won't be much more than that. I understand people improve, but honestly no one can ever get to 15k pp or something that high..
What happens then? (soon)
Everyone will just catch up to the first pp's , and the rank will become a big stuck ranking ,where the pp difference is very small between all crazy players. (assuming they get to a level that is very hard to top).
Hopefully I explained it okay.. But anyways, what happens then?
HAHAHA, and people told me over here that was in my head... I didn't quote all of your text Tess (cause too big), but you reflexion is nice and I agree with you.Tess wrote:
every human being to play this game calling DT overrated
In what universe?Yales wrote:
I think the old system was more accurate about our current skill
Completely wrong. If you get an SS on an od0 5 star map its going to be worth very little, under 100 even, yet od10 would push it probably to around ~220+Yales wrote:
od10 is considered the same as od0 (basically, as long as you have your 99% it doesnt matter which od it is, the pp will be the same for the same map)
Sorry I was just trying to communicate with osu! community.Riince wrote:
In what universe?Yales wrote:
I think the old system was more accurate about our current skill
Yales wrote:
od10 is considered the same as od0 (basically, as long as you have your 99% it doesnt matter which od it is, the pp will be the same for the same map)
Riince wrote:
Completely wrong. If you get an SS on an od0 5 star map its going to be worth very little, probably sub 100, yet od10 would push well over 200.
That was just an example... Especially talking about hr. I can get... let's say 97% nomod od8, and 94% with hr cause of the OD (cause this is my current accuracy skill, pretty low, but it doesnt matter for this topic). So I'll get pp for my 97% but probably not for my 94 cause it's under the 95% needed to get pp... But my accuracy is actually the same in both cases. Like my fingers are hitting the notes at the same time in both cases. xDRiince wrote:
i dont get it, do you think people should get PP for a play they already did?
What's so bad about not gaining any pp when not improving? Whether it is a human limit or whatever, pp is supposed to indicate your skill. It's not supposed to move if your skill doesn't change. That being said pp scales up more rapidly with increasing difficulty (which is why things like remote control shoot over 500pp so quickly). As a consequence very minor skill gains at the top end will cause huge pp differences. Just compare the top1-10 to the top11-20. There is a bigger pp difference in the top1-10, isn't it? Doesn't that kind of refute your point already?xasuma wrote:
SO here is a hypothetical scenario:
This is a "What if" story, hence, hypothetical.
-I am rank #1 . It is year 2016 and I have 14000 pp.
If you scroll down all the way on my top scores, you see that the last score that shows (weighted at <1%) is 550pp. And my first score is 780 pp, weighted 100%.
My skills are out of this world, and I have conquered every rank map there is to near perfection within human limitations.
In order for me to get to 14001 pp , I need to get scores worth over 560pp ,which will give me a fraction of 1 pp.
I am able to read ar11 and stream 280 bpm. But from here on, I am stuck. From now on, I will be lucky to gain 100 pp a year, I feel i've hit sort of a human barrier I just can't overcome.
Meanwhile, rank #50 still has 8500pp , and at their level they can still hope to get better within a reasonable effort.
But even If I get better, how much better can I truly get ? Lets face it , my human body will stop me from getting better, this is no science fiction, and I will never read ar13, or stream 350 bpm. What do I do to gain more pp and take advantage of my abilities to get ahead from the other top 5?
End of story.
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All I want, is to prove that the system will stop to function correctly at some point due to this. If you aren't able to see the point right now. Go, find out about how much pp a top player like hvick225 has gained in the past year. Now wait for another year, and compare that number to the one this year, feel free to continue this pattern. You should notice a decrease of pp gained every year, until that pp gain becomes really small.
Everyone will hit a "wall" sooner or later.
Alternative solution:
I recommend, making the ranking system a system of comparison and competition instead.Let me explain. Instead of having a static song you can play 1 million times and get pp out of with the best score, make it player vs player based. Where the only way you go up the ranks is to beat a player who's rank is better than you on a live match (as if you were participating in the owc). You play a best of 3, best of 5 , whatever. This method should more accurately measure your abilities in a more rounded way. You would have to play good under pressure, you can't spam retry, you have to beat a better player to climb the ranks, and you have to lose to go down (or don't play).
You could still play the way it is today, but getting #1 on a song would not give you points. It would only be for the honor and for the practice. In other words, our current scores would be somewhat of an "unranked" , and the "rank" part of the game would be player vs player (as most competitive games out there).
Your "skill" wouldn't be measured in a concrete way anymore. But it would be measured as a comparison.
SO when someone says, "I am bad" , I will say : "Yes , you are bad in comparison to the #1, but good in comparison to #1000000" (Same principle applies to this idea), is a matter of perception and comparison.
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Thoughts.
The way you worded it was terrible but I see what you mean. If you made exactly the same score on a map except one time it was OD9 and the other it was OD7 or whatever, yes, the OD9 play would almost certainly be lower accuracy. Maybe not by much depending on how good the OD7 score was, you could have still hit a lot of the 300's within the 300 timing window at OD9. Without going into your hit windows and calculating every single hit to see what it would be at another OD, you can't say OD7 SS = OD9 95%. You could get approximations though. I imagine it would be balanced so an identical score gives identical pp regardless of OD, maybe Tom can elaborate on that.Yales wrote:
words
Let's be realistic, no one will achieve what is "physically humanly possible". There will always be room to improve provided you play enough and play the right stuff.xasuma wrote:
text about hitting wall
Yes, pp is going to be harder to get the more you get. Just like improvement, the better you get the harder it gets to get even better. This does not prove your point of eventually "not being able to improve at all" though. Not to mention that a lot of the top players have become less active. Despite this, a lot of them are still getting scores and pp. Look at WWW's recent scores; he's been playing for a very long time.xasuma wrote:
Go, find out about how much pp a top player like hvick225 has gained in the past year. Now wait for another year, and compare that number to the one this year, feel free to continue this pattern. You should notice a decrease of pp gained every year, until that pp gain becomes really small.
A ladder system where you vs. other players realtime is not really suited for a game such as osu! imo but regardless of this, peppy has talked about wanting to introduce a ladder in the past. There's unofficial ranking systems even now. An idea like this would not replace pp though, it would just be something on the side.xasuma wrote:
idea for ladder system
I don't see how that would be a problem of the system. If the current #1 hits a wall, then there is no reason he should keep getting points; if other players keep getting closer to the current top player in terms of points, it just means the skill difference is getting smaller.xasuma wrote:
All I want, is to prove that the system will stop to function correctly at some point due to this. If you aren't able to see the point right now. Go, find out about how much pp a top player like hvick225 has gained in the past year. Now wait for another year, and compare that number to the one this year, feel free to continue this pattern. You should notice a decrease of pp gained every year, until that pp gain becomes really small.
Everyone will hit a "wall" sooner or later.
Applying this idea would require adding a new multiplayer mode where no individual player can't choose their opponents:xasuma wrote:
Elo-like system
There's many examples of other elo systems where this problem isn't present. You queue up, get an opponent with a similar elo and then play against them. If you recognize their name and no longer wanted to play against them, you could "surrender" or something similar which would have the same affect as a loss. The idea of seeing who you're playing against before you start the game and accept to playing against them can very easily be prevented, simply hide their name until you've accepted.Full Tablet wrote:
Applying this idea would require adding a new multiplayer mode where no individual player can't choose their opponents:
If everyone had a choice in who to play, low skill players would get ranked with other low skill players; and high skill players would get ranked with other high skill players (and their ranks wouldn't be necessarily better than the ranks of the low skill players). High skill players would want to play with low skill players, but since nobody would want to worsen their ranking, low skill players wouldn't accept playing with them. Take for example hvick225: when starting the new system, he would have the same rank as everyone else, since most people know who hvick255 is, most people wouldn't want to play with him, as a consequence, he wouldn't be high ranked; the highest ranked player would be the one who can get the most of the system, instead of the one who is the most skilled.
This is looking at it in a simple way, there could be much much more to the system. You could have multiple ladders for different mod usages, the option of using freemod, whatever. You could restrict your searches to only include maps under specific conditions (>220bpm for example) and then get matched against others with the same preferences. After all, the ladder (and the game itself of course) is ultimately for fun and forcing people to play mods they don't want to shouldn't be the way to go. Not choosing maps is definitely a must for the memorization factor, though.Full Tablet wrote:
Also, players shouldn't be able to choose the map and mods to play:
If players had a choice of accepting playing a particular map/mod or not, each player would only accept playing if they can do what they are good at. Players would opt to play competitively only when the conditions are favorable for them.
A cord please.Riince wrote:
pp wont keep increasing, people will quit and new players will replace them and i doubt the top pp will ever pass 10k
we definitely wont reach a point where all the best players reach the 'pp ceiling' and all end up stuck there. Probably the best players we have now will quit, new names will replace them or should, and the max pp of active players will either be lower or higher depending on the community. maybe in a few years we wont even have anyone over 8k pp playing, maybe we'll have several break 10k, including people we've never seen before. And then a few years after than we could be back down to 9k depending on who quits or replaces them from there. It's a cycle, not a perfect upward trend.
Alternatively: the game dies and everyone we have now in the top 50 stays there with a grayed out name like dungeon as noone else puts in the time to reach that level anymore.
You're right, but I still think it would be better if we would have a feel of infinite pp. To avoid this kind of thoughts when we're playing a game, even though they're true. -> We want a good rank, so we have to rush pp before we quit. It doesn't feel natural. (It's just a scheme but there's a part of truth)Riince wrote:
Well that's just how it works, Sports aren't based around every single player eventually becoming perfect so that no game can ever be decided as every player is playing at the limit of human ability and so every team is evenly matched. People get old and retire. It's the same for Osu, so it shouldn't be that way either. Top Players will cycle as years go by
I never was presenting this as an idea, more of a refutation to the idea that we'll reach a point where we just have a bunch of pro players all deadlocked at the same pp because they cant improve because human body.
It should also be noted that every person has a different limit to reach, i probably should have just brought that up instead...
Well, if youre that afraid that pp has a cap, then players could always try and reach top score ranking, as long as new maps gets ranked, there's pretty much no cap for this, all it needs is to have he game to make it look more important so people will try to aim for it.silmarilen wrote:
this is never going to happen and you know itxasuma wrote:
I'll bring up a problem with the current system.
It's already happening to top players.
Everytime you get pp, it becomes harder to get more. At some point, getting pp will be so hard, that players will be stuck at a certain pp. You can see this happening to players like hvick225. Where his top scores are so hard that in order to top them, it is extremely extremely hard. What happens when (IF) he gets to 10k pp. How is he (or anyone) goign to gain pp ? Anything below 500 pp will be worth almost nothing.
At that point they will be "stuck" . If it's not at 10k pp, it won't be much more than that. I understand people improve, but honestly no one can ever get to 15k pp or something that high..
What happens then? (soon)
Everyone will just catch up to the first pp's , and the rank will become a big stuck ranking ,where the pp difference is very small between all crazy players. (assuming they get to a level that is very hard to top).
Hopefully I explained it okay.. But anyways, what happens then?
Except that for some reason, top 50~ doesn't apply to your pp if the system judge that the map is too easy for you (even if it's not) or something like this... And this is the problem. So you can't say people just have to keep grinding maps, since more you're improving more maps are useless for your pp.. That's killing the experienceXanandra wrote:
Well, if youre that afraid that pp has a cap, then players could always try and reach top score ranking, as long as new maps gets ranked, there's pretty much no cap for this, all it needs is to have he game to make it look more important so people will try to aim for it.
Main problem I see is that people don't really know how to interpret statistical data, which is pretty much the reason why ppv1 died, I still think that the number it provided it¡s interesting, I mean, sure, it doesn't exactly measure how skilled you are, but it measured how good you are to get a top rank in a map, and it somehow could incentive players to achieve a good rank on a map. Maybe peppy could allow the coexistence of ppv1 and ppv2, and would have more numbers to compare each players
Anyways, bottomline is that the current pp works as intended, and I wish osu! would provide more statistical data for comparison like bringing back ppv1, and even maybe create a new one that could represent other interesting stuff about each player.
No. 1 single score < thousands of maps played.silmarilen wrote:
if you want to look at how good someone is, look at pp
My skill is increasing but if I don't play THE pp maps, my pp isn;t increasing though.silmarilen wrote:
you should not have a number based on skill increasing when you skill isnt increasing.
silmarilen wrote:
you mean as long as you dont play hard maps?
So you can play one single map good (the one with squares) but you can't play good the thousands of 150 bpm maps, I'm not sure you're a good player then.silmarilen wrote:
maps that osu finds hard for you obviously.
you cant make a ranking system based on what a person is better at, only what is statistically harder.
if you can jump 250 bpm fullscreen squares, but cant even fc a 150 bpm 5 note stream, it would still be pretty stupid to make that 150 bpm 5 note stream be worth more pp than the 250 bpm fullscreen squares.
I have nothing to prove to osu! itselfsilmarilen wrote:
maps that osu finds hard for you obviously.
then why are you even arguing about this?Yales wrote:
I have nothing to prove to osu! itselfsilmarilen wrote:
maps that osu finds hard for you obviously.
Because I have something to prove to myself? Or to other people? What's harder for you: SS freedom dive nomod or 97% freedom dive with hardrock? Do you need to ask osu to know it? Well... I think it would be better if you don't have to ask osu to know it so you'll have your own opinion about what is hard or not.silmarilen wrote:
maps that osu finds hard for you obviously.
I have nothing to prove to osu! itself
then why are you even arguing about this?
I took the top 3rd performances of a top player.Riince wrote:
your top ranks are a reflection of your skill though, the better you are the bigger the pp value of your scores will be end of story, unless you purposely avoid setting top ranks, which maps involved is kind of a moot point since its a comparative thing and everyone has access to the same maps; anyone who wants to participate in the ranking system has the means to do so and compare themselves to others in a way that reflects skill much better than ppv1.
Don't want to play >insert overrated ppv2 farm map here<? Well it's there, you have the option to do so, if you cared about your rank so much you would play it and if you were better than someone else who also farmed on those maps, guess what you will be higher ranked. you have to be lucid with your map choices if you want to rank up that's a given of course.
ppv1 was a mess, people seem to have forgotten already how people could get in the top 2k without even touching anything more difficult than a Hard.
Christs sake they even used the SUCCESS RATE ON MAPS as a metric of difficulty to help calculate how much pp a score was worth in ppv1, that's beyond ridiculous, things like Paul Rosenthal Liquid Remix were worth more than legitimate insanes because new players kept dying on it..
It also shows that the system ISNT perfect zzDrezi wrote:
TLDR: ohnoes koigokoro overrated zz