Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Vuelo Eluko
penguin plays it like FL you can tell by how his cursor goes to where the next note is going to be before a spinner is even over
i wish people would stop sucking him off about being able to 'read ar11'
KokaEdits
I love this update! :)
Woobowiz
Aside from the current topic posted, has this also been considered to remedy HD/FL plays that are worth less pp?

Going from 99% acc no mod to 97% HD mod makes it worth considerably less pp for a (subjectively) more impressive performance.

If I may propose 2 different solutions.

1. Slightly decrease the pp bonus to HD, THEN apply the pp bonus to the SS value then add it onto your actual % acc score.
( SS-pp * HD % Bonus ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
This may occur in a bit of a pp inflation and people may be satisfied with the pp they get from HD

2. Use the current pp bonus of HD (or slightly lower it again) to calculate the pp difference between No-HD SS and a lower accuracy HD S-rank of equal pp value
First find the HD S-rank accuracy which is equal to a No-HD SS in terms of pp, let that be equal to a variable X
Then the pp calculated is : ( SS-pp - X% Acc S-rank pp ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)

The issue with this is that the bonus might be TOO big for HR or DT runs.
Rewben2
I think HD is balanced at the moment. If a 97% HD score was worth more than a 99% non-HD score then I think it would be worth too much, 97% has 3x more 100/50's than a 99% score. Big difference. I can't speak about the formulas listed.
Vuelo Eluko
hidden is basically a playstyle choice, it's barely even a mod. it's analogous to hidden or flashlight in mania which mania players have agreed do not make the map harder but just changes the way it plays to fit their preferences. ideally it wouldn't give bonus pp at all but standard is understandably different than mania and there are times when hidden makes things harder.

Which brings me to my next paragraph.

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
Genki1000
If anything, I think hidden should give a bonus to accuracy instead of aim.
GoldenWolf
Why? Hidden doesn't change anything accuracy-wise, while it makes it harder to aim...
Genki1000

GoldenWolf wrote:

Why? Hidden doesn't change anything accuracy-wise, while it makes it harder to aim...
I'm probably biased since I play easies and normals, but on maps like

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/356657
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/64670
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/94633&m=0

I'm pretty sure accuracy (ar?) is a bigger reason as to why some people don't add HD rather than aim.
Rokusho

Riince wrote:

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
When the ar is low enough, hidden can make jumps really hard, since the note dissapears for a longer time than with higher approach rates. You have to remember the places of notes way more often at lower approach rates which makes both the aiming aspect harder and the ability to read hidden on lower approach rates. Lower ar is way more hard with the hidden mod on then without it. I do agree that the overlapping notes and stacks get harder with hidden, this should be looked at too imo.

The mod is pretty much balanced the way it is now, but a few little changes wouldn't hurt I guess.
tfg50

Woobowiz wrote:

Aside from the current topic posted, has this also been considered to remedy HD/FL plays that are worth less pp?

Going from 99% acc no mod to 97% HD mod makes it worth considerably less pp for a (subjectively) more impressive performance.

If I may propose 2 different solutions.

1. Slightly decrease the pp bonus to HD, THEN apply the pp bonus to the SS value then add it onto your actual % acc score.
( SS-pp * HD % Bonus ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)
This may occur in a bit of a pp inflation and people may be satisfied with the pp they get from HD

2. Use the current pp bonus of HD (or slightly lower it again) to calculate the pp difference between No-HD SS and a lower accuracy HD S-rank of equal pp value
First find the HD S-rank accuracy which is equal to a No-HD SS in terms of pp, let that be equal to a variable X
Then the pp calculated is : ( SS-pp - X% Acc S-rank pp ) + ( pp from your play; no bonus)

The issue with this is that the bonus might be TOO big for HR or DT runs.
That wouldn't work because HD gives a bonus to aim, not overall PP.

Solution 1- If you were to get that bonus out of a lower % bonus but straight from total PP you would get a good bonus even for a map that has just 1 huge stream that doesn't move. Do you stationary streams are harder with HD? I don't.

Solution 2- Giving a straight bonus like that disregarding the acc and/or misses the run had would make the lower acc hdhr/hddt runs give way more pp.

I think HD is fine the way it is now. The only way to make it more accurate is get patten recognition in the PP calculation. Maps like this are hell to play with hd for me even though I don't think it would give that much bonus PP with HD https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55117 .
Maxis

Riince wrote:

hidden is basically a playstyle choice, it's barely even a mod. it's analogous to hidden or flashlight in mania which mania players have agreed do not make the map harder but just changes the way it plays to fit their preferences. ideally it wouldn't give bonus pp at all but standard is understandably different than mania and there are times when hidden makes things harder.

Which brings me to my next paragraph.

Why does it give bonus to aim?. Jumps are by no means more difficult with hidden, yet jumps are what require aim to complete. Overlapping and stacks and the like that DO get harder with hidden, are not exactly heavy on the aim requirement. I guess tom just couldn't think of anywhere else to put hidden since it doesnt really change anything, aim included, but just felt he had to give it something.
IMO Hidden does make the map slightly harder to read (slightly), there are maps where the difference barely matters (basic patterns, consistent spacing, hit every 1/2 beat, no stacks/overlaps/streams, AR9-10...) and maps where Hidden plays in a lot (complex jumps/patterns, weird spacing, complex timing, stacks/overlaps/streams, low AR). Point being, the difficulty in hidden comes with reading the map--it's just a bit harder to notice all of the notes and to be able to time when to hit them correctly than on nomod. It is a slight difficulty increase, but it's still there, with the added effect of having to figure out how to time everything without approach circles, or keep track of where everything is.

The problem with pp is that it doesn't take in plain reading, because there's no pattern recognition, nor is there really any way to be able to tell you correctly read everything if you miss it. I think Tom tried to squeeze in that reading aspect by boosting up the aim bonus (verifying you can read it) and a very slight bit to accuracy (verifying you can time it), which would be pretty sensical in my eyes.

Just as my two cents on this, though I only play Hidden casually, I actually think this way is pretty accurate and Hidden is pretty fairly balanced right now. Like tfg50 mentioned, the only way to make it more accurate is to add in pattern recognition.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, like I said I only play Hidden casually.
Vuelo Eluko
thing is by eliminating approach circles it can, and does actually make a lot of hard to read and dense maps easier to read by eliminating more visuals and giving the eyes less it has to take in.

it's probably balanced but really why aim specifically?

i almost feel like Hidden could practically be reduced to something in options next to snaking sliders and background video and the like.
Drezi
I don't see all your Hidden FC-s. Don't you want the free PP if Hidden being on or off is so non-relevant to you that you almost think it could be reduced to an option?
GhostFrog
HD makes reading more difficult and making reading more difficult makes aim more difficult in ways that are hard to describe. Given the current system, HD pretty much has to give a bonus to aim if it's going to give a bonus at all. However, for people who play exclusively or almost exclusively HD, that difficulty increase is pretty much non-existent and HD is a six and two thirds percent (very slightly higher than that actually, assuming HD bonus is applied before power mean is taken) bonus to overall pp. The real question here is whether or not being able to play HD is worth 6.66% bonus to pp or if it's worth more or less than that. Looking at its effect on individual scores is a red herring until reading/pattern difficulty gets added - with the way we're currently measuring the difficulty of HD, we're really just determining whether or not someone can play HD on maps they play, not how well they can read it.

On an unrelated note, I think that both HD and FL should be unranked. Then we wouldn't be having these problems.
Drezi
Learning to read HD on certain ARs develops a permanent skill that can be applied to other maps aswell (unlike FL) and this skill should be rewarded to some extent imo. I agree about FL though.
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Learning to read HD on certain ARs develops a permanent skill that can be applied to other maps aswell (unlike FL) and this skill should be rewarded to some extent imo. I agree about FL though.
Oh please, Combo Bursts on adds more difficulty than Hidden, wheres my PP for that?
Drezi

Drezi wrote:

I don't see all your Hidden FC-s. Don't you want the free PP if Hidden being on or off is so non-relevant to you that you almost think it could be reduced to an option?
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Don't you want the free PP
don't you think I'd play DT more if I wanted 'free PP'?
uzzi

Riince wrote:

Drezi wrote:

Don't you want the free PP
don't you think I'd play DT more if I wanted 'free PP'?
Why are you trying to dodge the main point here? What Drezi is getting at is that if HD is as easy as you make it seem, then why aren't your nomod fcs with HD?
Nyxa

Riince wrote:

it's probably balanced but really why aim specifically?
Play caren_sk's Nyan Nyan Drive map nomods (AR10 or AR9, doesn't matter)
Now play it with Hidden.

There's your answer.

Also, it bothers me how you constantly seem to be looking at everything that isn't relevant to the issues at hand. It looks more like you're trying to complain for the sake of complaining than actually trying to contribute and solve problems. It's like Drezi said - you complain about HD, yet don't appear to have any experience with it. How would you be qualified for deciding on whether it is or isn't relevant to aim in that situation? Also, at your rank, I doubt you've even attempted to set any aim-heavy HD scores at all. Checked your account and apparently you don't have any HD scores, let alone aim-heavy ones.

You posting in a thread filled with several players who play HD regularly and talking about what should happen in regards to hidden is like somebody with no mapping experience trying to tell RLC how to map. Seriously, be constructive, ask questions, or shut up. You'll only be getting in the way of progress if you make arguments based on hardly anything at all.
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