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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Makan1

Zare wrote:

Makan1 wrote:

Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone

Makan1 wrote:

hdhr SS
:^)
Gahhhhhh you know what I meant. Not 'everyone' but people who are 'ok' at the game.
Actually fuck that, how about a easy map where everyone SS with 4 mods for top 50
D:<
What if it were the case where it was easy to SS with hdhr but too fast of a Bpm to do on DT :o
........... Guess maps that fast are hard to SS anyways, yea.
Ok only easy maps or In the future where everyone it godlike
Genki1000
I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
Vuelo Eluko

Genki1000 wrote:

I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
the scoring system should already discourage this kind of crap. it will become first come first serve and the randoms spinning their way onto scoreboards on 1 star maps that anyone can FC on their first day instead of properly progressing or playing maps their level will be encouraged to do so. Sure there's no 'right' way to play osu! but does the system really need to reward such a stagnant playstyle?
laref
Just store the highest score and highest pp play separately. Say you got a hrhd SS and an sliderbreak DT on remote control. The hrhd would have the highest score, therefore it being the one displayed in the map's leaderboard. The DT score would be the highest pp one of the two, so it would be the one being used for the calculation of the user's total pp.

Might have been mentioned already, but this is the way I'd do it.

I don't really see a good enough point in implementing some kind of special leaderboards for pp plays. The way you can view specific mod plays on a song (as supporter) is pretty much enough in my opinion. Just start saving two plays of each map diff: highest score, highest pp.
Full Tablet

ntaig wrote:

Just store the highest score and highest pp play separately. Say you got a hrhd SS and an sliderbreak DT on remote control. The hrhd would have the highest score, therefore it being the one displayed in the map's leaderboard. The DT score would be the highest pp one of the two, so it would be the one being used for the calculation of the user's total pp.

Might have been mentioned already, but this is the way I'd do it.

I don't really see a good enough point in implementing some kind of special leaderboards for pp plays. The way you can view specific mod plays on a song (as supporter) is pretty much enough in my opinion. Just start saving two plays of each map diff: highest score, highest pp.
p/1736817 (feature request made when ppv1 was still new).
ivan
x
jesse1412

Genki1000 wrote:

I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
As it should do???

Makan1 wrote:

FL players work extremely hard only to get 1st on a map and it seems unfair.
So do DT players and HR players and HD pla-... wait a second...
Makan1
Yeah but it's different methods of working hard. When your skill is already high like snowwhite, he can FC hddt a map in 1-3 tries. FL is actually working hard for a map just for #1 or a high rank. You never use FL so you don't know but when you put a retarded amount of time to do FL on a 1000+ combo map then you might understand how deserving the first place actually is.

Look at Heiwana's play on yoiyami hanabi and you can't deny that it's a billion times more impressive than the hdhr score.
If you have issues with hdfl beating hddt then be like cookiezi and SS like on fake me science XD
GoldenWolf

Makan1 wrote:

Yeah but it's different methods of working hard. When your skill is already high like snowwhite, he can FC hddt a map in 1-3 tries. FL is actually working hard for a map just for #1 or a high rank.
That's the thing, FL in itself does not make you better at the game generally (you could argue it helps with snapping and stuff, but I really don't see it helping much about it) unlike other mods (DT, HR, HD and even EZ), so I don't think FL should be rewarded even more than it actually is (50% bonus flat on aim is already huge enough...)
jesse1412

Makan1 wrote:

Yeah but it's different methods of working hard. When your skill is already high like snowwhite, he can FC hddt a map in 1-3 tries. FL is actually working hard for a map just for #1 or a high rank. You never use FL so you don't know but when you put a retarded amount of time to do FL on a 1000+ combo map then you might understand how deserving the first place actually is.

Look at Heiwana's play on yoiyami hanabi and you can't deny that it's a billion times more impressive than the hdhr score.
If you have issues with hdfl beating hddt then be like cookiezi and SS like on fake me science XD
Again, you can put a weeks worth of effort into a map and a year of standard practice and take rank 1 while it would take 4 years of standard practice to do the same with DT. DT requires more effort in the long run and hence SHOULD be worth more than FL.
Makan1
But DT is already worth more than FL currently?? Did I miss something and FL got a buff.

*add on edit
What if rrtyui decides to use FL and take #1 on a map? I've actually spectated him doing it and would your argument work then?
* actually it doesn't relate too much....
Also I don't see why people taking 1 with FL is a problem because it doesn't reflect on the actual rankings too much.
BluOxy #3 ppv1 to 120+
Yoshilove rank ~250 ppv1 to 1000+ so it's actually pretty good if you ask me
Does it matter if the 2 score is DT BUT you get ~50 more pp than the FL play and you rise to a much higher rank anyway. It would have made sense complaining in ppv1 but in ppv2, things have changed
Zare
you're continuously missing the point
what ppv2 measures is "what does this score tell me about the player's clicking speed, aim speed & precision and clicking accuracy"
a FL score on long maps is always impressive because of the mental aspect, but the actual, physical difficulty of the map doesn't really increase.
The score is only impressive for itself, because evidently a lot of effort went into it. But the player getting that score didn't gain any kind of physical strength he can use in other maps, his actual >skill< doesn't improve from getting that score
Rewben2
Damn this flashlight talk has been going down forever

It all comes down to whether you think that pp - your ranking compared to the rest of the community as a player - should be based off how much effort went into a score or how good the player is. I think the latter is quite clearly the way to go, isn't the whole purpose of a ranking system to give better players a higher rank? All we can base this off is scores, creating a system which can be manipulated to make scores appear good just because a lot of time went into it is not the way to go.
Dexus
I personally would like to see the weighting system shifted to where the top five or so scores have a higher weighting. The taper effect seems to sudden and then draws out too long. Past the top 25 it should be where it hits that 1% weight. The list view should be shorter as well since I and others don't bother to look very far down in the list. With this hitting your top five would be more rewarding and players would have a better idea of placing scores around their top ten instead of continually replacing their very top performance. It seem useless to score anything less than your best to move anywhere. More consistent players would be rewarded as well since they would have several good scores placed instead of a handful of odd weighted scores. No mod is kind of crippled because of this fact; there's not enough high rating maps no mod that are relative to where I'm ranked. Big black SS 300pp and Lewa can't FC it yet there are scores worth way more that are manageable in comparison.
Drezi

Dexus wrote:

I personally would like to see the weighting system shifted to where the top five or so scores have a higher weighting. The taper effect seems to sudden and then draws out too long. Past the top 25 it should be where it hits that 1% weight. The list view should be shorter as well since I and others don't bother to look very far down in the list. With this hitting your top five would be more rewarding and players would have a better idea of placing scores around their top ten instead of continually replacing their very top performance. It seem useless to score anything less than your best to move anywhere. More consistent players would be rewarded as well since they would have several good scores placed instead of a handful of odd weighted scores. No mod is kind of crippled because of this fact; there's not enough high rating maps no mod that are relative to where I'm ranked. Big black SS 300pp and Lewa can't FC it yet there are scores worth way more that are manageable in comparison.
Yes please, your best scores should be closer to 100%, and more than 20-25 being weighted higher than 1% just rewards you a bit for setting lots of scores at your average level.

I also hate that passive 416 bonus PP, around half of that would be enough I think (achieved by stricter weighting like 0,999 instead of 0,9994 and not cutting the individual per map bonus in half).
Drezi

Dexus wrote:

there's not enough high rating maps no mod that are relative to where I'm ranked. Big black SS 300pp and Lewa can't FC it yet there are scores worth way more that are manageable in comparison.
I think part of the reason that nomod plays aren't worth as much at higher levels is cause you can't gain significant acc PP with OD7 and 8, compared to OD10 HR and DT plays + the issue with pattern difficulty.
sayonara_sekai
I've randomly jumped 500-1000 ranks 3 times today. What could be causing this? I get 20-40~ ranks from doing good on hard maps and then randomly sometimes it jumps up around 700 ranks.
Drezi
Actually I ran some numbers, and made a weighting that yielded roughly the same amount of PP for the typical player, tested with actual PP numbers.

I used =(COS(X/12,5)+1)/2 with this weighting the top25 performances would be weighted higher than they are now, below the top25 they would be weighted lower, and reach 0 around the top40th performance. I might have made mistakes when it comes to the actual numbers, but you get the idea.

This would mean that having lots of average performances wouldn't be as valuable, as having good ones in the top spots, and having an outstanding Top1 performance wouldn't be as important as it is now.

Blue line shows the current weighting, Red line is the one suggested.
uzzi

Drezi wrote:

Actually I ran some numbers, and made a weighting that yielded roughly the same amount of PP for the typical player, tested with actual PP numbers.

I used =(COS(X/12,5)+1)/2 with this weighting the top25 performances would be weighted higher than they are now, below the top25 they would be weighted lower, and reach 0 around the top40th performance. I might have made mistakes when it comes to the actual numbers, but you get the idea.

This would mean that having lots of average performances wouldn't be as valuable, as having good ones in the top spots, and having an outstanding Top1 performance wouldn't be as important as it is now.

Blue line shows the current weighting, Red line is the one suggested.
I see this being very good alternative to the current weighting system. Kind of anti-farm as well in a sense.
Amianki
I support that only because it would apply to me perfectly. :*)
silmarilen
i dont like the part where it hits 0
Zare


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
silmarilen
that's a really good score, but what are you trying to gain from posting it here?
Zare
i'm criticizing how overrated DT is
I feel like that should give like


170~ pp
GoldenWolf
What if I tell you you're underrating DT
silmarilen
i feel like it should give ~215 pp in the current system
Zare
I'm getting these scores within 5-10 tries usually
Whenever I get a Nomod FC with these amounts of tries it's worth like nothing
silmarilen
>od
jesse1412

silmarilen wrote:

>od
>ar

The only issue with DT is it gives people an AR they're more comfortable with imo. It'd be fixed up a bit if AR was rewarded/punished accordingly but it's such a subjective topic it's not really balanceable.
Vuelo Eluko

Zare wrote:



¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Spaced streams are pretty difficult but a bit overrated, that i'll agree with. but that map isnt exactly free pp i havent been able to get higher than a 240 combo B.

also i thought it was already established pony maps are all free pp because even slow players can get fcs on them with dt and collect their ~5 star fcs because they all have low bpm compared to a lot of 3-.3.5 star maps which can sometimes get into the 280-290 bpm range.
GhostFrog
All of the above posts are pretty much correct, but to add to that, pp would be more accurate on a per-score basis if it worked like tp imo with regards to how aim speed and acc are treated. Your pp from a score isn't too much different from the sum of its aim speed and acc values (a power mean is used to weight the highest value a bit more), which means that most scores that don't give a decent amount of each are almost worthless. In tp, your overall aim/speed/acc values were calculated by putting all of your aim/speed/acc values in order and applying the same decreasing weighting method as is now employed for your total pp. That allowed scores like a low-acc DT FC on mendes (or impressive FCs on low OD nomod maps) to be properly rewarded, whereas the current system makes them seem relatively insignificant. In exchange, the current system allows you to get more pp from your stronger aspect(s) and that probably balances out total pp, but tp's system was certainly better about rewarding you for individual good scores.
Drezi

silmarilen wrote:

i dont like the part where it hits 0
The main idea was to reward your top2 to 5-10 performances higher as Dexus suggested, and not have the weighting draw out for so long. If it was feasible I would have made it hit 0 at around the 25-30th performamce, as I don't believe that any more performances are needed to evaluate a player, setting around that many good scores already proves that you're capable of playing at that level. But doing so would have resulted in large PP drops in everyone's PP totals, which is something I thought couldn't work due to people freaking out, even if cutting everyone's pp in half does nothing in reality.

I think pretty much everyone can effortlessly set any number of scores that are as good as their 40-50th ones, so why should those even be considered/rewarded? The faster you progress, or less scores you set, the more it's holding you back, or alternatively it can be filled up with your 2-3 try FC level of play performances, which again doesn't really prove anything.

It's mostly just phychological reasons that you feel it's bad if it hits 0 in my opinion, but even then it could always be adjusted so that around 25-35 it turns into the current weighting formula and it never reaches 0.
Dexus
spit-balled some numbers to give a better idea

Current Weighting

Player A
250pp 100% 250
191pp 95% 181.45
190pp 90% 171
190pp 86% 163.4
190pp 81% 153.9
total: 919.75

Player B
210pp 100% 210
203pp 95% 192.85
200pp 90% 180
200pp 86% 172
198pp 81% 160.38
total: 915.23

After Weighting Shift

Player A
250pp 100% 250
191pp 98% 187.18
190pp 97% 184.3
190pp 95% 180.5
190pp 93% 176.7
978.68pp

Player B
210pp 100% 210pp
203pp 98% 198.94pp
200pp 97% 194pp
200pp 95% 190pp
200pp 93% 186pp
978.94pp

As you can see if a player places a random or fluke score they can easily usurp a player who is clearly playing at a more consistent level. With the change it would shift these players closer in ranking without giving fluke scores such power and make placing similar scores within your top 10 more feasible. The player sporting a high pp scores IS deserving of a pronounced rank, but it really shouldn't overthrow players who are more deserving to be at that rank. This wouldn't allow farming neither because it would taper off still. At first I was against putting 0% worth, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense to not even count so many scores. 1% of a score shouldn't really be what a player is focusing on in my opinion, but constantly replacing your top score to get anywhere will just cause such anxiety. I'm honestly interested in seeing where all players would be sitting if such a weighting method was put in place.
Ziggo

GhostFrog wrote:

All of the above posts are pretty much correct, but to add to that, pp would be more accurate on a per-score basis if it worked like tp imo with regards to how aim speed and acc are treated. Your pp from a score isn't too much different from the sum of its aim speed and acc values (a power mean is used to weight the highest value a bit more), which means that most scores that don't give a decent amount of each are almost worthless. In tp, your overall aim/speed/acc values were calculated by putting all of your aim/speed/acc values in order and applying the same decreasing weighting method as is now employed for your total pp. That allowed scores like a low-acc DT FC on mendes (or impressive FCs on low OD nomod maps) to be properly rewarded, whereas the current system makes them seem relatively insignificant. In exchange, the current system allows you to get more pp from your stronger aspect(s) and that probably balances out total pp, but tp's system was certainly better about rewarding you for individual good scores.
I kinda agree with this, but I also see how a score with decent values in all aspects should be worth something. Maybe the tp system could be used with the players pp composed of aim, speed, acc AND combined pp as a forth value.
FGSky






why EZ is underrated than HT

HT is very easy mod
GoldenWolf
It's not?

the EZ score has 20 misses more and 4% worse accuracy, that's pretty huge, especially the 20 misses

To compare the score they need to be near indentical
FGSky

GoldenWolf wrote:

It's not?

the EZ score has 20 misses more and 4% worse accuracy, that's pretty huge, especially the 20 misses

To compare the score they need to be near indentical
yeah but look at the pp amount
silmarilen
look at the amount of misses
is there any other map you know of where you can get over 200pp with 40+ misses?
GoldenWolf

FGSky wrote:

yeah but look at the pp amount
not "yeah", you haven't read anything of what I said...
FGSky
nvm

silmarilen wrote:

look at the amount of misses
is there any other map you know of where you can get over 200pp with 40+ misses?
uuh i thought the combo is more important than misses sorry :-)

GoldenWolf wrote:

not "yeah", you haven't read anything of what I said...
no i don't know how to read
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