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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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jesse1412

Riince wrote:

even if FL gave dt amounts of pp people would still look at FL players as randoms
Pretty much this. People ignore FL for a reason. When you look at things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155929?m=0 the last thing you care about is the fact that someone FL'd it (although that rank 1 is fairly impressive, no one cares about it).
NixXSkate

jesus1412 wrote:

Riince wrote:

even if FL gave dt amounts of pp people would still look at FL players as randoms
Pretty much this. People ignore FL for a reason. When you look at things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155929?m=0 the last thing you care about is the fact that someone FL'd it (although that rank 1 is fairly impressive, no one cares about it).
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
Yeah but looking at plays like this makes me rock hard. Which gets less pp than the HD+DT SSs of course. Despite the fact Dungeon coulda gotten an SS on the map way over 25 times with the amount of plays he put (and his accuracy wasn't bad at all).

Although combo after 200 should affect the pp FL gives, I think the speed of the jumps and the map itself should be a much much bigger factor, which it sort-of is currently, just not enough in some cases. If a long map has slow jumps, it's really just patience in order to FL it, there's not much rectum squeezing. It's sometimes unfair, however, because people tend to have the mindset that FL players played the map so much that it's so embedded into their muscle memory that FL barely makes a difference to them after their practice. But on a map that's really difficult to FL, they'd probably only FC it 1 or 2 times total. Basically, when they finally get the scores, there's like too much of a focus overload to hit an extremely good accuracy, which matters more than the aim bonus. They could, of course, play it 1000s of more times until it requires much less focus to aim so they can focus on accuracy, but not everyone has as much patience as this guy.

FL does take skill, people can get better at it, and people like loli_milk were able to FL scores fast because of the fast reflexes and jumping with fast recall he had. How to measure FL for PP? I have no clue, it's too much mental skill rather than physical, but just keep in mind that when someone manages to FL a song that's difficult with it on, they're probably having a focus overload and pissing their pants, especially by the end. Unless they're used to it like BluOxy. The difficulty FL adds is so much greater as the difficulty increases, and I think it would be fair if scores such as Mesita's score here was worth slightly more, or at least around the same as the DT+HD SS scores, because scores like this aren't really whore-able to 99.999% of players. You can't really decide "oh I'm gonna DT+FL something like this for the pp" because it would take so much conviction and dedication for the average non-autistic person, and you would need to be able to FC it somewhat consistently without FL.

Tess wrote:

Granger wrote:

In my opinion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base score bonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
Why is this so hard to agree with or implement? In my opinion, it would be much better if the score bonuses were:

HD: 1.06x
HR: 1.08x
FL: 1.10x
DT: 1.12x

It's a mod in the game and you can't tell me that HR is harder than FL. FL should be worth it on longer maps. That requires a hell of a lot of skill and not just anyone can memorize an entire 2000-combo map and get high accuracy on it. You can call any FL score easy - that doesn't make it so. That reminds me of the guy who played a map I recommended to him as a hard map, and he went "LOL this is easy LOLOL" but when I asked him to FC it he couldn't do it, and said it wasn't worth it because it would take too many tries.
I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead, but nobody seemed phased. (I think my idea was actually 1.03 for HD, 1.06 for HR, 1.09 for FL, and 1.12 for DT or something...)
Nyxa
Yeah, the basic idea was to have score reflect pp so that, for example, HDHR scores wouldn't be worth as much as DT scores.
Winshley
Spun Out reduces the final beatmap's pp by 5%.
SpunOut shouldn't reduce pp by flat percentage, but rather the total amount of length of the spinner(s) or total number of spinner(s) or both instead.

While this may sound silly, I'm planning to use SpunOut to make a HD+HR+FL+SO scores so that I can actually enjoy getting SS with such mod combinations on certain map(s) while preventing myself from taking #1 away from players who have HD+DT or DT+FL scores. Would be weird that I got less pp when the map has 0 spinners, isn't it? :P
Topic Starter
Tom94

Winshley wrote:

Spun Out reduces the final beatmap's pp by 5%.
SpunOut shouldn't reduce pp by flat percentage, but rather the total amount of length of the spinner(s) or total number of spinner(s) or both instead.

While this may sound silly, I'm planning to use SpunOut to make a HD+HR+FL+SO scores so that I can actually enjoy getting SS with such mod combinations on certain map(s) while preventing myself from taking #1 away from players who have HD+DT or DT+FL scores. Would be weird that I got less pp when the map has 0 spinners, isn't it? :P
Making spunout pp depend on the amount of spinners makes sense indeed. I'll see if I can add this in the next balance adjustment.
koromo

NixXSkate wrote:

I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead
I actually thought about this a week or so ago but didn't bother posting. Would love to see score replaced with pp for more accurate scoreboards, though a change this big seems unlikely, and is probably too much of a bother, but who knows.
NixXSkate

koromo wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead
I actually thought about this a week or so ago but didn't bother posting. Would love to see score replaced with pp for more accurate scoreboards, though a change this big seems unlikely, and is probably too much of a bother, but who knows.
I would hate it.
koromo

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
It's probably impossible anyway, considering SS scores + spinner bonus and whatnot (since spinners make no difference in pp), plus tons of replays not being available due to not being in the top 50 despite giving enough pp to make it otherwise.
Woobowiz
pp based scoreboards would be fantastic, and same pp tiebreakers can be resolved after by score, then by date achieved (1st to score it wins)
Nyxa

Woobowiz wrote:

pp based scoreboards would be fantastic, and same pp tiebreakers can be resolved after by score, then by date achieved (1st to score it wins)
Yes.

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
Why, though? Everybody knows that score has nothing to do with which play was harder to make - just look at the Hoshizora no Ima scoreboard if you disagree. Or Killer Song, or Wahrheit. What's the point of a scoreboard if the top scores aren't the best scores?
NixXSkate
Why are you all discussing this here?
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/220119
Discuss how much you want FL scores to not show on leaderboards most of the time, unclear bonuses on songs, and spinning to be a useless skill in this thread instead, dammit.

Tess wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
Why, though? Everybody knows that score has nothing to do with which play was harder to make - just look at the Hoshizora no Ima scoreboard if you disagree. Or Killer Song, or Wahrheit. What's the point of a scoreboard if the top scores aren't the best scores?
I already discussed what I consider a solution in this thread previously (if you scroll up), and a previous post in the other thread.
Nyxa
Suggestion unrelated to any previous discussion - does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a #pp channel in-game? I mean, this thread has been going on for a while, it's clear that, since pp is constantly evolving, it will be constantly discussed. Maybe live discussion of it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Just a suggestion. After looking at that other thread, it just seems like a lot of people have questions about pp and have things they'd like to discuss about it, and plenty of people seem interested, so, I think this might be a pretty beneficial idea.

Opinions?
Gigo
Uhm... can't you just discuss pp-related stuff here? That's why this thread was created in the first place. Why is a separate channel needed? I really don't see a point.
Nyxa
Because channels are faster than threads. With your argument ("Can't you just discuss it on the forums?") any IRC channel would be obsolete, because a forum thread could be made for it. However, this thread is nearing 100 pages. For how much longer do you intend to keep it going, anyway?
GoldenWolf

Tess wrote:

However, this thread is nearing 100 pages. For how much longer do you intend to keep it going, anyway?
For as long as people aren't 100% happy with the current pp system and they see potential changes that would make it more accurate
Nyxa
Which is for a long time. Well, it was just a suggestion, i think it might be useful.
Makan1
I really dislike the idea of pp based scoreboards, I don't see it working exceptionally well.
First it would make FL even more useless
Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

I guess this feature can be applicable to supporter leaderboards but I don't see the point of it at all unless its only for seeing how much pp this play is worth, then that can just be added somewhere under the actual score with the combo and such.

FL players work extremely hard only to get 1st on a map and it seems unfair.
Zare

Makan1 wrote:

Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone

Makan1 wrote:

hdhr SS
:^)
Makan1

Zare wrote:

Makan1 wrote:

Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone

Makan1 wrote:

hdhr SS
:^)
Gahhhhhh you know what I meant. Not 'everyone' but people who are 'ok' at the game.
Actually fuck that, how about a easy map where everyone SS with 4 mods for top 50
D:<
What if it were the case where it was easy to SS with hdhr but too fast of a Bpm to do on DT :o
........... Guess maps that fast are hard to SS anyways, yea.
Ok only easy maps or In the future where everyone it godlike
Genki1000
I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
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