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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

iaceo wrote:

Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
It has been discussed some pages ago. The example was the val0108 maps, especially the 260+ bpm ones. They don't have streams, but have extreme spacing, yet they are not even weighted correctly. For eg. if you SS the With a Dance Number, you won't even get 250pp, which is sad, because the map is around the difficulty of a HRHD Remote Control. Same with Scarlet Rose, Talent Shredder, No39, YuYuMetal, etc.

It is hard to weight them because that would affect a ton of maps in an overrated way and they solved the issue of leaving them out of the top pp list. Though it could be solved by adding them to a "Special weighting", but that would cause a lot of controversial argument between players of how "this and that" map is not in the list, which could be solved by creating a unique forum for them, but that would be too much work:D
iaceo
21 posts
Joined December 2010
iaceo
I did some skimming for some 10 pages back.. Searched val0108 and looked for hits in this thread for pretty much a year.. I came up with some fragments discussing a previous discussion on the matter ^^
But from what i gathered it was partially about single tapping speeds..
I personally find the spacing in his maps rather fluid, which is not what im trying to convey here.
The maps that i mentioned are maps that have lots of variations in speed

A split up stream or even a stream placed as stacked doubles. Stuff you need well timed jerky moves for or constant variation in movement speed
Whileas with the val maps its pretty fluid which requires (in my opinion) a different kind of control. What im looking for here is for, a way of detecting ongoing variations throughout the song! Be it speed changes or movement.

I believe continuously adapting to stuff like this aint rewarded enough and my examples for maps doing this sort of (I believe i read someone calling it) "overflowous" type of moves.
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213
http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
pyon
27 posts
Joined January 2013
pyon

pielak wrote:

http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
me too i wonder are those separated note streams THAT overrrated?
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
I guess the thing that should be done first is to nerf shorter maps.
We see that most "good performances" are generally under 2 minutes, which shows that people find it easier in general to make high pp performances in the case if it has a low drain time.
Therefore, it can be concluded that shorter maps should be given less pp to balance the system.
The actual multiplier can be calculated with a logarithmic function, which should make sure that the bonus is not overly large for marathon and can make sure that maps shorter that 30s can receive a huge pp nerf to balance the system.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
/
Last edited by xasuma , edited 1 time in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

xasuma wrote:

This is not necessarily a pp matter, but more of a balance thing. Which is sort of related to pp in the end.
Anywyas, imho , I believe that the drain for spinners should be re-done.

As of now, spinners will give a boost hp when the spinner is completed, and during the spinner itself, is common for your hp to drop (unless you spin extremely fast).

I think either the hp drain during spinners should be less.
or
The hp bonus you get when you complete a spinner should be distributed during the entirety of the spinner itself.

Why is this? Because of long spinners. Long spinners can be very hard to pass when the od is high enough. So hard in fact, that to me, is kind of silly.

Thoughts?
i think this is the wrong thread to discuss that :)
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

dennischan wrote:

I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
what? that's YOUR point not mine or the threads point lol
AlphaFlow
11 posts
Joined May 2013
AlphaFlow
umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
Omgforz
166 posts
Joined November 2010
Omgforz
Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

Omgforz wrote:

Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
On tp ar8(?)-ar10 is the same when you talk about the calculations. AR outside that range gives a bonus to aim. That's probably how it works here aswell.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I think it's something like anything below ar9 or above ar10 gives a bonus to aim. Don't quote me on this.
Omgforz
166 posts
Joined November 2010
Omgforz
Yeah, I remember that, but I'm talking about the density.

ar9 250 bpm should perhaps give a bonus to aim, because it's definitely harder to read than ar9 180 bpm

but maybe this bonus is being incorporated in some other way, or it's not even looked at.
AlphaFlow
11 posts
Joined May 2013
AlphaFlow

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake
The pp you gain by fcing a map has no relation to your level. First you complain saying that you thought that this game was supposed to reward skill and then you want it to reward playing the same difficulty over and over. The way the pp and ranking system works right now is that you have to make better plays to improve your ranking. This ensures that you can't just farm your way up the rankings and instead need to be skilled to reach the top, exactly like you wanted.
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR

Examples



tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

valixas125 wrote:

wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
First, if you at least tried to use proper grammar and spacing that wall of text could be easily more readable.

Second, if you were trully "competative" you would understand that playing stuff of the same level you usually play and getting "good" scores on that isn't something a competitive person would do at all. That would be almost the same as you being low ranked on any game (SC2/LoL/Dota) and winning against the same bad opponents over and over again.

"Almost the same" is there because it is even worse when you consider that on those games you play against other people and on osu! you play alone (multiplayer room or not it doesn't make a difference and your rank on the beatmaps should not be counted when you take into account that not every player played that map).

If you want to be higher ranked on anything, there is, more often than not, an easier way (DT PLOX). But if you want to really deserve being higher ranked you just need to focus on improving and the results will show up sooner or later.
lenkki-rastas
9 posts
Joined June 2014
lenkki-rastas
I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

erite-rastas wrote:

I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Right now there's no pattern recognition at all. So you are right.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Genki1000 wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR

Examples




It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).

Also, I think that the problem is not with the pp given, but with the weightings of pp that are currently there. I think your top performances should be rewarded a little more, and your bottom performances a little less. I'm also going to guess that the aforementioned problem has to do with this. Rather than the scaling you have now, I think it would be better to give a much heavier weighting to your top 10 performances, and then have the scaling decrease exponentially from there. That way, people with a lot of high-level top performances would end up with a higher rank than people with lots of performances of the same rank. I know it already sort of works like this, but I think that this system should be upped a level. I've seen players with a rank higher than mine who just had lots of 170-160pp performances, while there are players with a lower rank than me, despite having a few really strong performances (220-190pp for the top 5-10), only because they have less performances below those.

So, in short, I think that better performances should be rewarded more, and worse performances rewarded less.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Tess wrote:

It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).
The random pp you get while playing Normals most likely come from the pp bonus from having played many different maps. If you have about 1000 ranks, you get about 0.137pp each new map you play no matter how well you do (this bonus caps at 416.667pp, with 1000 ranks the bonus is 188.036pp).
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
these algorithm changes had a huge effect on the top 5 this time, lewa and woof in particular, not so much for most players. My PP and my friends barely changed. Whereas the last algorithm change didnt effect the top 5 much [well except sayo but he was still #1 when he lost like a hundredpp], yet had a big effect on the lower ranks. I lost nearly 20.

How odd.

Would be funny if this suddenly became a ridiculous pp map. I notice Uan's rank is 215 now from 270 and along with www who also got a huge pp boost shares a FC with him.... this could be hilarious i can see everyone playing the 50 minute 700pp map now
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo
I'm assuming it hasn't updated for everyone yet. Give it a day or two and it will probably look different again.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
considering rrtyui's pp hasnt changed, not everybody in top10 has their pp updated yet
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Riince wrote:

im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Tom94 wrote:

Riince wrote:

im wondering why some people lost PP

http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/116146691278#_=_

This led me to believe it wouldn't happen.
There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
eh. both me and my friend both lost pp i havent checked with my other friends but the fraction cant be that tiny if the one random friend i was talking to also had it happened. Probabilities.

Either way it was very minor [5 for me, 4 for him], but there will definitely be threads complaining :cry: you underestimate the # of people abusingplaying super short maps to artificially inflate their rank like me
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50
I gained 28 pp and I have quite a few DT farmed scores (some long ones some short ones). I don't think there will be lots of people complaining.
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000
From what I see, most people who lost ranks have songs like

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/380646?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/147365?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/109570

in their top plays.

I lost 4pp but gained accuracy, so I'm guessing Granat got pushed down for me.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Long or spaced streams still overrated, fast streams still underrated.
Maxis
151 posts
Joined May 2013
Maxis
Personally I went up 9pp, whereas my tops are fairly varied in length but most are around 1-2min.

My friend went down, though all of his tops are under 1 minute, so I'm pretty sure the pp reduction would only happen if you have really short tops.

brb going to FC unforgiving
Gritoit
73 posts
Joined August 2013
Gritoit

Maxis wrote:

Personally I went up 9pp, whereas my tops are fairly varied in length but most are around 1-2min.

My friend went down, though all of his tops are under 1 minute, so I'm pretty sure the pp reduction would only happen if you have really short tops.

brb going to FC unforgiving
Taking a guess that it is songs under 1:30 since I lost 4 pp and do not have any under 1 min in my top 10.
ivan
313 posts
Joined November 2013
ivan
x
Last edited by ivan , edited 1 time in total.
manjumochi
162 posts
Joined April 2013
manjumochi

Tom94 wrote:

There is only a very, very tiny fraction of people who lost pp. The whole thing has to keep balance to some degree, though, so it's not entirely unavoidable.
I lost :(
I never have luck on pp recalculations.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion
I gained around 60 pp but i lost around 100 ranks D: RIP

Well, I've also always lost ranks on pp updates cause I got no accuracy.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
so longer songs give more pp now? is this why Snow- brick or whatever his name is is now #1?---

oh wait, sayo is now no. 1 again. huh.
lenkki-rastas
9 posts
Joined June 2014
lenkki-rastas
Lost PP when improving accuracy on my 2 DT scores?
Yes, I know it's still recalculating but the amount that I improved was about 1,4% on both of those maps
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
more misses = less reward
if you fc'd but lost pp you probably lost it from the algorithm change and it just now updated.
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