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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Akari-
211 posts
Joined May 2010
Akari-

higurush wrote:

Let's say there is a TV size map+DT - it will be around 1 minute - and there's a longer version+DT - it will be around 3 minutes. Let's say the two maps contain the same elements (longer version = play tv size 3 times). The pp evaluator will say it will be the same difficulty, because everything is the same and will give the same amount of pp for both of them.
copypasting the same map 3 times makes the star rating go up, it's just that the amount it rises is weighted

http://i.imgur.com/lV5BKmc.png
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
You do get more pp from maps with higher max combo. It's not that significant though in comparison to star rating except with really long maps (The marathon and this diff have almost identical star ratings, but the marathon gives a lot more pp (or at the very least, it gave a lot more tp and pp is usually extremely similar)). If you did have a map that contained 2 copies of another map, it would have a higher star rating. I don't know how much higher, but the max combo scaling for pp is relatively low because it only attempts to account for consistency, while in theory leaving the added difficulty from the extra length to the star rating system.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
the extra pp on the marathon is most likely because it has more notes so you get more acc
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Actually, yeah, you're right. I remembered there being a bigger difference between them. The bonus pp you get from higher max combo really flattens out after a certain point, so the 1275 max combo from In the Middle of the Night gives almost the same bonus as the 9289 combo from the marathon diff. I know there was some amount of combo scaling for tp from looking at pp gains of SS plays on a lot of maps and it probably carried over to pp. (I only checked the aim and speed tp values; I used SS just to avoid any possible accuracy or slight-combo-miss scaling on aim and speed)
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush
What I overall meant with my comment is that playing long maps are not even worth struggling for. You're better off playing random TV size/short maps if you want pp.
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..

Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc

Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.

What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi
There isn't a rank bonus anymore...
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

There isn't a rank bonus anymore...
Then the "do the same as the crowd" method really is there.
Even if there is no rank bonus the mentioned and complained maps should worth more pp considering their "real difficulty"..
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Well its just a matter of looking at most people's top play's length. I just think it's slightly underrated.
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.

Right? Lol
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

xasuma wrote:

Well its just a matter of looking at most people's top play's length. I just think it's slightly underrated.
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.

Right? Lol
So you think it is the same as with Approach Rate? AR9=AR10 in star difficulty. (this AR stuff is okay though)
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

higurush wrote:

What I overall meant with my comment is that playing long maps are not even worth struggling for. You're better off playing random TV size/short maps if you want pp.
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..

Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc

Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.

What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)

homework crisis is ar9 compared to koigokoro ar9.6 thus it feels harder to read, while the map itself probably isnt much harder
koigokoro is also od9 (od7+dt) while homework crisis is only od7, the koigokoro score probably got close to the same amount of acc as the homework crisis score got.
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

silmarilen wrote:

koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)

homework crisis is ar9 compared to koigokoro ar9.6 thus it feels harder to read, while the map itself probably isnt much harder
koigokoro is also od9 (od7+dt) while homework crisis is only od7, the koigokoro score probably got close to the same amount of acc as the homework crisis score got.
I feel fine with long jumps and high spacing maps as well (Remote Control HRHD, With A Dance Number+HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Talent Shredder0108 +HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Saten unranked maps), etc, but I accept your reasons.

What about the Nightcore Compilation, which is connected to this thread's new problem: long maps are not worth playing and struggling for?
Last edited by higurush , edited 2 times in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.

the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

silmarilen wrote:

i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.

the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
Well there's a solution for that too. Limit the maximum amount of percentage bonus or constant bonus for the length of the maps. This way the 1 hour Within Temptation Marathon map won't end up as top pp source :)
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

silmarilen wrote:

i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.

the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
It should be very little if it is boosted. I am not asking for anything dramatic. Probably something most people won't notice much. But enough for it to matter to those who do play longer songs. I am sure tom can handle the logistics of it and make it work. As long as he wishes to do so.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

silmarilen wrote:

something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
Well, if it exists, it's still not enough to make me play longer maps and struggle on them for better acc. Because it isn't worth the pain. Still getting more pp if I DT some random TVsize map. Time spent/pp rate is better.
It's like I play those longer maps once in a while, because I like the song and that's it.
iaceo
21 posts
Joined December 2010
iaceo
Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
Ive been waiting a while after this songs release before writing anything on the subject
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/394808&m=0
Luvatorrrrry landing at sub 5 stars, insane techniques landing at 5,5..
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155288
These two map will be my examples but it shows in quite a few Hanzer/ skystar/HW maps i believe (and more mappers are doing sections like these of late as well)

Now they are both at over 20k plays~ neither of the leader boards is really filled with FCs yet and they both have some lower acc plays towards the bottom (Bs ;d)
For people who dont play 5 star maps, here is a 5,44 star leaderboard for comparison
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/94506
Now, i have never played the Amatsuki map and im currently away for work.. But i hope its a fairly normal map in terms of its mapping.

So anyways, what i believe is the problem with the first two maps are the quarterbeat spacings.. Sudden changes to your movement... Be it two notes or four in a stream that has spaces between the stacks.. Heck in luvatorrrrrys case i think most people have the speed to singletap most of the quarterbeats and combos are still beeing lost

So, if possible i think ... Sudden shifts in spacing/speed needs an inspection, a spacing shift for a prolonged period of time aint too bad but when it varies with every 3 notes for a period of time mistakes happen ;d

Sorry about lazy links and typos if there are any, as i mentioned im away for work so this is all written on my phone~ in the bathroom~ over and out!
higurush
313 posts
Joined December 2010
higurush

iaceo wrote:

Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
It has been discussed some pages ago. The example was the val0108 maps, especially the 260+ bpm ones. They don't have streams, but have extreme spacing, yet they are not even weighted correctly. For eg. if you SS the With a Dance Number, you won't even get 250pp, which is sad, because the map is around the difficulty of a HRHD Remote Control. Same with Scarlet Rose, Talent Shredder, No39, YuYuMetal, etc.

It is hard to weight them because that would affect a ton of maps in an overrated way and they solved the issue of leaving them out of the top pp list. Though it could be solved by adding them to a "Special weighting", but that would cause a lot of controversial argument between players of how "this and that" map is not in the list, which could be solved by creating a unique forum for them, but that would be too much work:D
iaceo
21 posts
Joined December 2010
iaceo
I did some skimming for some 10 pages back.. Searched val0108 and looked for hits in this thread for pretty much a year.. I came up with some fragments discussing a previous discussion on the matter ^^
But from what i gathered it was partially about single tapping speeds..
I personally find the spacing in his maps rather fluid, which is not what im trying to convey here.
The maps that i mentioned are maps that have lots of variations in speed

A split up stream or even a stream placed as stacked doubles. Stuff you need well timed jerky moves for or constant variation in movement speed
Whileas with the val maps its pretty fluid which requires (in my opinion) a different kind of control. What im looking for here is for, a way of detecting ongoing variations throughout the song! Be it speed changes or movement.

I believe continuously adapting to stuff like this aint rewarded enough and my examples for maps doing this sort of (I believe i read someone calling it) "overflowous" type of moves.
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213
http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
pyon
27 posts
Joined January 2013
pyon

pielak wrote:

http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz

why is this map 6.9 stars
me too i wonder are those separated note streams THAT overrrated?
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
I guess the thing that should be done first is to nerf shorter maps.
We see that most "good performances" are generally under 2 minutes, which shows that people find it easier in general to make high pp performances in the case if it has a low drain time.
Therefore, it can be concluded that shorter maps should be given less pp to balance the system.
The actual multiplier can be calculated with a logarithmic function, which should make sure that the bonus is not overly large for marathon and can make sure that maps shorter that 30s can receive a huge pp nerf to balance the system.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
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Last edited by xasuma , edited 1 time in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

xasuma wrote:

This is not necessarily a pp matter, but more of a balance thing. Which is sort of related to pp in the end.
Anywyas, imho , I believe that the drain for spinners should be re-done.

As of now, spinners will give a boost hp when the spinner is completed, and during the spinner itself, is common for your hp to drop (unless you spin extremely fast).

I think either the hp drain during spinners should be less.
or
The hp bonus you get when you complete a spinner should be distributed during the entirety of the spinner itself.

Why is this? Because of long spinners. Long spinners can be very hard to pass when the od is high enough. So hard in fact, that to me, is kind of silly.

Thoughts?
i think this is the wrong thread to discuss that :)
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

dennischan wrote:

I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.
what? that's YOUR point not mine or the threads point lol
AlphaFlow
11 posts
Joined May 2013
AlphaFlow
umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
Omgforz
166 posts
Joined November 2010
Omgforz
Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

Omgforz wrote:

Is note density (relation between bpm and ar) a factor in the aim portion of the pp algorithm?
On tp ar8(?)-ar10 is the same when you talk about the calculations. AR outside that range gives a bonus to aim. That's probably how it works here aswell.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I think it's something like anything below ar9 or above ar10 gives a bonus to aim. Don't quote me on this.
Omgforz
166 posts
Joined November 2010
Omgforz
Yeah, I remember that, but I'm talking about the density.

ar9 250 bpm should perhaps give a bonus to aim, because it's definitely harder to read than ar9 180 bpm

but maybe this bonus is being incorporated in some other way, or it's not even looked at.
AlphaFlow
11 posts
Joined May 2013
AlphaFlow

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

umm its all cool and all but is it normal to not get olmost any pp at all?
got 4 Hards On SS 3of them have more than 20k plays by other ppl and i got 1pp for them and i played a few normals with mods and got into the top 50 and got like 0pp no rly 0pp is it bc im lvl 95 or smth? played 3insanes got S's over 96-98% accuracy and i got 1pp is this seriuos or am i expiriencing a bug?
cuzz if this is seriuos am i susposed to go and play marathons or Breakcores or whatever u call it that goes above the insane?
you have to play harder maps... thats all... the insanes you are S'ing are probably not even really insanes just named such if you arent getting pp at your rank for them. fc 4+ star maps and you will definitely notice it.
wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake
The pp you gain by fcing a map has no relation to your level. First you complain saying that you thought that this game was supposed to reward skill and then you want it to reward playing the same difficulty over and over. The way the pp and ranking system works right now is that you have to make better plays to improve your ranking. This ensures that you can't just farm your way up the rankings and instead need to be skilled to reach the top, exactly like you wanted.
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR

Examples



tfg50
149 posts
Joined September 2013
tfg50

valixas125 wrote:

wow, well thats kinda lame, i wish i would be a low lvl account again, could farm PP all day bc lets be honest 50-60% of our lvl's are made out of fails or plays that didnt grant us pp... i could farm PP on lov lvls like baws :/ kinda unfair if u ask me atleast from my standpoints when i play with my friends who i recently talked into takin osu they gain PP for the maps we play and all theyre around 30-40lvls and i dont even tho its like 3stars and i havent played it yet and its really unfair in my eyes... the PP grantage shouldnt be decided by ur lvl it should be decided on skill alone and not on ur account level... though this game relied on skill appearantly i was wrong :c quite sad... i enjoyed this game quite much and the thrills of gettin more and more PP just got me hooked on the game, and now that i have to play 4-5star maps which are quite fu**in hard is throwing me off the game. lets be real alot of players well me bc im real competative gets hooked on the game just bc they keep winning over other players and now that i olmost cant get PP or i have to spend like 2hours on 1map to gain any PP whatsover makes me wanna cry i love this game so much but recently im playng it less and less because i dont ge the thrill of beating other ppl ofcourse u might think im just talkin crap and im sorry if but well im talkin outloud i might say so dont take this very seriuosly if what i wrote here does not apply to u, maybe im just 2noobish and cant play 4-5stars map like u guyz or smth well that just my oppinion... :!:
btw full comboed a 3.9 star map 97% accuracy got 1PP horay.... :cry: (Got PP for like a 5star map tho :) :) :) 8-) )
First, if you at least tried to use proper grammar and spacing that wall of text could be easily more readable.

Second, if you were trully "competative" you would understand that playing stuff of the same level you usually play and getting "good" scores on that isn't something a competitive person would do at all. That would be almost the same as you being low ranked on any game (SC2/LoL/Dota) and winning against the same bad opponents over and over again.

"Almost the same" is there because it is even worse when you consider that on those games you play against other people and on osu! you play alone (multiplayer room or not it doesn't make a difference and your rank on the beatmaps should not be counted when you take into account that not every player played that map).

If you want to be higher ranked on anything, there is, more often than not, an easier way (DT PLOX). But if you want to really deserve being higher ranked you just need to focus on improving and the results will show up sooner or later.
lenkki-rastas
9 posts
Joined June 2014
lenkki-rastas
I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

erite-rastas wrote:

I have a feeling like it isn't recognizing some hard patterns
I'm prob wrong about this
Right now there's no pattern recognition at all. So you are right.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Genki1000 wrote:

valixas125 wrote:

lots of text
I'm not sure if I understood but if you want pp:

1. You can go here and full combo the maps that come out at the top

2. Just add DT to your plays
3. If you're really desperate, SS random OD4/5 normals with DTHR

Examples




It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).

Also, I think that the problem is not with the pp given, but with the weightings of pp that are currently there. I think your top performances should be rewarded a little more, and your bottom performances a little less. I'm also going to guess that the aforementioned problem has to do with this. Rather than the scaling you have now, I think it would be better to give a much heavier weighting to your top 10 performances, and then have the scaling decrease exponentially from there. That way, people with a lot of high-level top performances would end up with a higher rank than people with lots of performances of the same rank. I know it already sort of works like this, but I think that this system should be upped a level. I've seen players with a rank higher than mine who just had lots of 170-160pp performances, while there are players with a lower rank than me, despite having a few really strong performances (220-190pp for the top 5-10), only because they have less performances below those.

So, in short, I think that better performances should be rewarded more, and worse performances rewarded less.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Tess wrote:

It's fucking retarded though that some Insanes give as much pp for an SS as Normals with HDDTHR, which are way easier. I know that I can FC 4-star Insanes until I die and won't get a single pp, but when I play DTHR Normals in multi with friends of a much lower rank than mine (90K-300K) I sometimes randomly gain 1pp, despite not even FCing it. I really think something should be done about this (or I'm just really misunderstanding the system).
The random pp you get while playing Normals most likely come from the pp bonus from having played many different maps. If you have about 1000 ranks, you get about 0.137pp each new map you play no matter how well you do (this bonus caps at 416.667pp, with 1000 ranks the bonus is 188.036pp).
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