Cinagro wrote:

I still feel like I can "game" this pp system because some maps just give so much ranking for a reason I don't really understand (I have not read this thread, so please don't pitchfork me if it's been explained).

There are some scores/full combos with decent accuracy on my page that I'm proud of (Remote Control is the only one really depicted in my top ranks), but I can go FC some very easy TV Sizes/short 1:30-2 minute songs that I see have granted my friends a lot of pp and gain just as much. I know I'm at a lower pp rating than most posting about the system in this thread, but it just feels so silly at times.

A lot of these songs seem to have lots of slow streams/lots of short sliders, as opposed to more jumps and single taps. I don't know if these factors are weighting their score a lot, but that's honestly what it feels like.

I don't mean to be complaining or anything of the sort, just posting my current experience with the system.

Would be cool if you could provide examples of scores (user + beatmap) you believe are overrated / underrated. I (and others reading this thread) can than have a look.

Cinagro wrote:

Also, are you the Tom94 that released a program to protect against a vulnerability in the first set of Flyff private server files a good six or so years ago? If so, fancy seeing you again here working on this great game.

Yup, that's me.

Tom94 wrote:

Cinagro wrote:

I still feel like I can "game" this pp system because some maps just give so much ranking for a reason I don't really understand (I have not read this thread, so please don't pitchfork me if it's been explained).

There are some scores/full combos with decent accuracy on my page that I'm proud of (Remote Control is the only one really depicted in my top ranks), but I can go FC some very easy TV Sizes/short 1:30-2 minute songs that I see have granted my friends a lot of pp and gain just as much. I know I'm at a lower pp rating than most posting about the system in this thread, but it just feels so silly at times.

A lot of these songs seem to have lots of slow streams/lots of short sliders, as opposed to more jumps and single taps. I don't know if these factors are weighting their score a lot, but that's honestly what it feels like.

I don't mean to be complaining or anything of the sort, just posting my current experience with the system.

Would be cool if you could provide examples of scores (user + beatmap) you believe are overrated / underrated. I (and others reading this thread) can than have a look.

Cinagro wrote:

Also, are you the Tom94 that released a program to protect against a vulnerability in the first set of Flyff private server files a good six or so years ago? If so, fancy seeing you again here working on this great game.

Yup, that's me.

Holy shit that's ridiculous! I used to go by Organic on RZ, but I really doubt you remember me.

Well, I don't know as much if its that I still have room to grow, but these maps just felt really overrated compared to everything else that was at the top of my top ranks. I don't know if length is factored into the score at all, but maybe it should. It would probably be difficult to balance it between very long marathons and TV sizes, but it's probably something you've already considered.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/217253?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/323726?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/245816?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/398341?m=0

What's the exact effect of hidden on the calculations? Currently it seems pretty ambiguous. I see it affects aim but to what extent and how? The wiki just says "Hidden and/or Flashlight is active."

Dexus wrote:

What's the exact effect of hidden on the calculations? Currently it seems pretty ambiguous. I see it affects aim but to what extent and how? The wiki just says "Hidden and/or Flashlight is active."

If those values haven't changed in a while:
HD: 18% bonus Aim value, 2% bonus Acc value.
FL:36% 50% bonus Aim, 2% bonus Acc.

Tom94 wrote:

Also, FlashLight is giving a 50% aim bonus since the last update (you can find it in the changelog somewhere, it's been a week or two), not a 36% one anymore.

i dont think hd got changed tho

Not sure if you care about the easier maps, but https://osu.ppy.sh/b/327673?m=0 seems overrated. Without a doubt the easiest Hard I've so far played (very simple & took 2 tries to SS), yet it's my top score.

Can anyone explain this?

Hi Tom, could you check this please?
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/213478

If Full Tablet's explanation is true, it needs to be fixed to prevent confusion..
Thanks.

The new pp system is based on the skill that player has. Which is good. But i still miss ppv1 system (That pp system was based on the rank that the player achieved by playing). Still, it's good. (PPV1 seems much more logical to me...) Anyway, good job introducing ppv2

I really prefer ppv2 over ppv1 from what I've seen because it actually feels valid to say that if you have a marginally higher PP than the opposing player you are probably more skilled, rather than just saying someone played more or grinded more ranks.

From all the replays and everything I've seen in top players this is what I think needs to be buffed/nerfed/changed. I'm not a very good player or anything but I guess I still have an opinion

1. Length (in hit objects) need to have more of a value. Players with high stamina in maps should be rewarded more, with some of the hard long maps/marathons actually being pp farmable. If you look at the best scores in osu!tp top 50 scores, there are 11 TV Size DT Scores (13 if you count Killer Song), that seriously popped out of nowhere, and didn't seem to be as hard (didn't take as much retries or effort, from what I've seen in spectating) as some of the longer maps like Freedom Dive or Bikko's HDHR of Mago De Oz.

I decided to think of a couple marathons that would be fucking sick to DT, and what came to my mind was: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108296
This map is a 12 min long marathon that is p popular now, and was the map I personally used to practice AR9.

With that, I used osu!tp to estimate the amount of PP a HD,DT play of this map would be worth (with acc around the lower 99%, because its simply more convinient) and (although I know DT recalculates speed and aim difficulty) DT tends to buff the aim and speed values by about x3, and HD gives a 18% bonus to aim, DT/HD gives a x2.05 buff to Acc from raw estimate, this gives God Only Knows DT a surprisingly low tp value of 379 estimate (probably off, but aroudn that area)

That is less than a DT HD Play of this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/408128 -- a one and a half minute song which gave sayo 435tp after doing it. The stamina required to do all the jumps and rather high BPM streams (specifically at the mars part) seems to be more than the DT sayo did on the previously mentioned map.

The only problems I see are maps like The Unforgiving being worth a jesus load of pp lol.

Well I guess i'll just drop some maps that in my opinion wouldn't be as undervalued if length were to be given a bulk

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25403 - Various Artists - osu! Stream Compilation
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/343741 - Hanatan, yuikonnu & Mitani Nana - Songs Compilation [Rabbit Face]
Every DragonForce map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 - Tatsh - IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0>

ok wall of text 1 is complete, ill try to make no.2 a bit shorter

2. Single Tap maps high BPM whatever

Although Scarlet Rose isn't the hardest map, I have no idea why WWW's HD/HR FC with only 6 100s is rated so low, not even worth 300tp on osu!tp, on a map that where the top 50 aren't even all FCs, or why With a Dance Number gives so little pp. It was mentioned previously in this thread that it should be buffed somehow, but really, val0108's maps really need to be worth more.

I did a similar test to the God Only Knows play, but this time looked at a play that has already been done

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/99094 - Megpoid GUMI - Carnival

Cookiezi HD,DT'd this map (I have no fucking clue how, but he did) Comparing the score on osu!tp of the player, furikake on carnival, which has a similar accuracy to what cookiezi got on the map, and applying the DT estimates of x3 Aim,x3 speed and x2 acc, carnival would be worth an estimate of 353tp. For one of the hardest DTs Cookiezi ever did, that is really little, in comparison to a DT like everyone doing Magic Girl!!, which is worth more tp than Carnival, as Magic girl is more focused on DT Jumps than single tapping like jesus. (mentioning this map because it has a similar length) fast singles definitely need a buff.

3. Just a quick note, FL needs to be buffed on longer maps, as being able to memorize a longer map is much harder than a short map. It's easier to remember a short song with jumps than Flashlight on a marathon.

TUOPlays wrote:

2. Single Tap maps high BPM whatever

Although Scarlet Rose isn't the hardest map, I have no idea why WWW's HD/HR FC with only 6 100s is rated so low, not even worth 300tp on osu!tp, on a map that where the top 50 aren't even all FCs, or why With a Dance Number gives so little pp. It was mentioned previously in this thread that it should be buffed somehow, but really, val0108's maps really need to be worth more.

From single tapping alone, how would you ever deter the player's preference to either alternate or single tap apart from looking at their replays? I believe val maps don't need a buff, they sit perfectly where they currently sit. There are a lot of other maps that are total BM compared to val's.

Clearly scarlet rose should atleast be counted as an extra diff. Still, I think Tom already knows most of the faults in calculating difficulty. It's just really hard to balance some things out without breaking others.

A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.

Rewben2 wrote:

A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.

iirc, updates do take some time to be updated to the correct values, it happened to me and a lot of other people. 2 hours is too quick for it to update, it happens where there is a lot of shifting going on.

Melt3dCheeze wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

A question about ranks - My friend noticed that he's a higher rank than someone else yet having more pp, here are the profiles: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1559215 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3693177

My friend is 4 pp higher yet 200 ranks higher. At first I thought it may have been an issue where the players ranks weren't updating due to not having played, but both these players have set scores as recent as 2 hours ago.

iirc, updates do take some time to be updated to the correct values, it happened to me and a lot of other people. 2 hours is too quick for it to update, it happens where there is a lot of shifting going on.

This is correct. The rank shown on the profile doesn't update in realtime.

Chipmunk42 wrote:

Not sure if you care about the easier maps, but https://osu.ppy.sh/b/327673?m=0 seems overrated. Without a doubt the easiest Hard I've so far played (very simple & took 2 tries to SS), yet it's my top score.

Follow-up question to this: is accuracy overrated on easier maps, or just these ones?
http://puu.sh/9jbY2/bc674ea36f.png (1 x 100) compared to http://puu.sh/9jc5r/852a77487c.png - double the PP (ignore FL mod--it's negligible). Both this and the other map's scores were SS and are some of my top performances, yet were infinitely easier than the Hard FC's I have which give similar PP.

accuracy is very heavily weighted on easier maps from what ive seen since OD is a fixed value all maps use and is mainly the metric for calculating the Accuracy worth of a map but Aim/Speed ratings are on a per map basis so if the Aim/Speed ratings on a map are quite low the Accuracy ratings [which goes mostly off OD] are most important. I may be wrong here but I think that's how it works. How else would accuracy be weighted besides OD, slider ratio, and possibly BPM? those 3 dont vary as much as speed/aim difficulty when you compare easy's to extras

also keep in mind your more difficult plays wont always be your most weighted. i've passed plenty of things that i thought were much harder than any of my top 5 plays but got 0 pp because of the 85% or lower acc and sub par combo.. I personally think pp gains should be relative to your other scores so if i did something kind of crazy like pass big black/image material even if i had a 90 combo and 70% acc i'd want it to show up and give more pp than my other plays [even if it meant my other plays got weighted less].

this wouldnt be unfair i dont think, if someone low rank passes something most people his rank cant pass, he should get some boost that elevates him above them somewhat. I think with it being relative to your overall performances, the amount of pp a poor play like that on a very hard map like that would give would be less and less as you ranked up therefore it wouldnt be unfair to other people who played the map and did well since by the time you reach their rank it wont be worth any pp to you.

Juuust my idea... nothing wrong with encouraging people to play at their limit right?

It's too hard to give an accurate judgment to a play with low combo and a ton of misses, so they get undervalued to account for the possibility really bad/lucky passes (i.e. missing all of the hardest notes in the map).

I agree that we should get pp for simply passing hard songs.
It could work like this:
pp gain from passing freedom dive+senketsu no chikai+ DT warheit
You can just calculate the difficulty to pass those songs:

The formula should be something like this: beatmap difficulty*HP drain*log(longest combo length)
and then we get a fixed amount of pp for each song.
For example, we get 50pp passing freedom dive, 45 for senketsu, and 80 for DT warheit
Then total gain of pp: 80*100%+50*95%+45*90%
then weight them all and then get the pp tweak



Also I think long songs are undervalued a lot.
It takes same effort to hold 200 combo at a long song than an short song at same difficulty, but you gain more pp by playing the short one

200/220 combo at anime opening
200/2000 combo at crazy hard renard song

more pp for anime opening... That just dosen't make sense.
I think we should get more pp from long songs, and it should work exponentially

something like: base^(length of song in minutes)*original pp

and of course FL bonus should scale with the length of the song...
and it should work exponentially also

dennischan wrote:

I agree that we should get pp for simply passing hard songs.
It could work like this:
pp gain from passing freedom dive+senketsu no chikai+ DT warheit
You can just calculate the difficulty to pass those songs:

The formula should be something like this: beatmap difficulty*HP drain*log(longest combo length)
and then we get a fixed amount of pp for each song.
For example, we get 50pp passing freedom dive, 45 for senketsu, and 80 for DT warheit
Then total gain of pp: 80*100%+50*95%+45*90%
then weight them all and then get the pp tweak

Getting PP for passing songs is probably not a good idea. Someone who can mash their fingers fast can /probably/ pass chipscape or mad machine or any other crazy stream map (NF easily negates HP, since that's only 0.9*PP) with half-decent accuracy, but that doesn't mean they can play the game.

I agree with the long song / FL stuff, but it'd also overrate easy marathons like this. Dunno, should probably be scaled.

It's hard to determine, though, because a lot of songs are hard not because of the overall difficulty of the map, but rather a single part. For example, Snow Goose would be a piss-easy map if not for the deathstream / short streams near the end. Especially since that stuff is all at the end, getting a combo for the beginning of the map wouldn't be too hard, and thus the map becomes free PP.

dennischan wrote:

I think we should get more pp from long songs, and it should work exponentially

something like: base^(length of song in minutes)*original pp

That would make marathons overrated, and length from not-so-relevant would become the only relevant factor for pp. Some marathons are so easy you can hold multiple 1000x combos with no effort at all.

I agree that length is underrated, but I think the length bonus should just decay slower.

Long streams are so overrated it hurts me inside. I spent like 40 mins trying to plot graphs for how the pp bonuses for longer maps could work and 4d comes along every time with it's bullshit and ends up with an insane bonus. The system is meant to measure difficulty to fc the maps and 4d is insanely overrated in that department. I'm either going to assume that the current system takes into account the length but not that well when calculating stars which is making it all go funky OR freedom dive is overrated when it comes to difficulty to FC.

the mighty jesus has spoken
on topic: why dont nerf long streams
example: CFDgimme/chase the light /4 dimensions whatever
and maybe boost banned forever...

I just saw Tom's reply saying that combo is factored as performance*(combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8.)

However I personally think there should be a reasonable amount of pp given just by passing the map itself.

For example - your pp reward= performance*0.35+peformance*0.65*(combo^0.8/combo^0.8)
In this case I counted the "pass" reward 35%, so obviously if you pass a map with 180/1800 combo it would yield you nearly no pp with current system, however this should reward you a bit if the map's difficulty is super high.

maybe this number can be differed according to the HP Drain(and this should be reasonable solution to award high drains slightly more).



think of airman or FD. You barely passed it nomod and gets rewarded no pp.. I find this slightly unreasonable.

The problem with just passing is that this system doesn't punish playing with NF, it gives the same PP as playing without it (iirc). Also, I know people that can pass insanely hard stuff when comparing what they can pass to easy maps that they can't even fc (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/120002 + dt vs https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55945 nomod)

tfg50 wrote:

The problem with just passing is that this system doesn't punish playing with NF, it gives the same PP as playing without it (iirc). Also, I know people that can pass insanely hard stuff when comparing what they can pass to easy maps that they can't even fc (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/120002 + dt vs https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55945 nomod)

No Fail reduces it by 10%.

Also not sure if jesus is serious when he says 4D is overrated ...

nooblet wrote:

Also not sure if jesus is serious when he says 4D is overrated ...

i always thought 4d was one of those ridiculously epic songs and anyone who fcs it should feel quite rewarded for it.. the map is basically osu! lore...

i honestly think the overrating problem is more prevalent on shorter maps like chase the light

- By zxmuffinxz


- By myself.

I was considering FLing this map to squeeze some more PP out of it but come on. Seriously? SS no-mod is currently considered to be worth more than FL+HD, albeit an S and 1.49% lower accuracy.

~Insert FL-is-underrated-still rant here.~

if the map is easy to FL [I.E low aim rating, notes arent too far apart] then FL doesnt give it much PP

presumably hidden acts on aim difficulty too so

Considering I put a good 100 tries into FL FCing the map earlier, and considering it took me under 20 to SS the map, I'm just finding it hard to believe that a FL+HD with a couple of misses is worth less than a full combo that had none, considering the blind jumps. I'm not expecting it to be worth 200pp or something stupid, I'm just expecting PP to actually reflect the difficulty of a map correctly. Hence my bringing it up. I feel that the PP awarded does no match the skill required to pull off.

the map is od8 and has virtually no aim rating, it's only natural when you consider the way pp works that this would give less pp.
comparing it with tp, you lose 16 acc and gain 15 aim.

silmarilen wrote:

the map is od8 and has virtually no aim rating, it's only natural when you consider the way pp works that this would give less pp.
comparing it with tp, you lose 16 acc and gain 15 aim.

It's just dumb how FL seems to be completely obsolete now. The only difficulty mod that you shouldn't bother using if you want to gain PP because, as my friend so eloquently put, "memo isn't a real skill."

the thing with FL is that the only difference with nomod is that you need to memorize where everything is, it doesnt require you to actually be faster/more accurate, and only kind of needs better aiming because you have to blind aim. FL gives a 50% boost to aim for this, and im not sure how you would otherwise increase the bonus of FL without breaking it.

Considering how small the area becomes at 200 combo, I'd say it requires quite a bit more "skill" than HD does. You don't even see where the circles pop up, let alone the approach circles if you add HD. It shouldn't be on par with DT of course, it's no where near the skill required to perform well with DT. But, as the current system has it, FL might as well just be removed from PP calculation altogether, it makes that little difference unless you SS. Basically, we're pretty much forced to either go all the way or fall short of the PP we might have had for HD or no-mod SS/higher accuracy.

EDIT: Not saying the balancing of bonuses is easy of course, just putting in food for thought.

DOUBLE EDIT: If adjusting it even slightly messed things up, the only alternative would be to have completely separate PP rankings for each mod, or something of the sort. In before I get flamed for this suggestion.

Just bear in mind that FL focuses on muscle memory and memorization alone. You have to complete the same jumps and streams in the same time as nomod so applying difficulty bonuses similar to DT/HR is out of the question. The only thing FL is comparable to is HD and the bonuses of HD have already been reduced. Yes, if you play Airman with FL then you should get a HUGE bonus because it proves that your muscle memory must be insane; but at the same time you should not get a huge pp bonus if the song is very easy to SS nomod.

today silmarilen agreed with me
im all fuzzy

I guess the main misconception I have is more tries to FC != harder. Paradoxical statement, but that's what my issue boils down to. The harder the map, the more PP. The harder to FC or SS, the more PP. If someone puts the effort in to learn a map then (of course, in my own opinion) they should be rewarded for it, not put off even attempting it (AKA just no-mod SS over FL S).

Effort != PP. Gotcha.

the amount of pp from a play, as i understand it, is based upon how quickly the map requires you to move your cursor, how hard it is to land on the notes, and how precisely the notes are tapped. I don't think such hard to quantify metric such as 'memorizing' a map is taken into consideration because it does not directly make the map technically harder in terms of how you have to move your fingers.

Shimatora wrote:

Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.

Should FL really, REALLY be encouraged though?

Precisely why I said Flashlight is obsolete. Useless outside of score. The new system is excluding FL as something that actually makes the game harder and you should be rewarded for using. Basically, we both agree. I understand WHY it happens, I don't need explaining, just offering feedback.

EDIT: Bassist Vinyl, you've literally summed up ppv2 in a nutshell. That is my quote of the fucking year right there. FL is something that shouldn't be encouraged, but frowned upon.

Is There a clear thread, or maybe some kind of wiki, consisting of the factor what pp accounts in? I mean, I can guess that we take combo, accuracy, difficulty, etc.. but you know, the details. like, losing 10% pp with nofail, losing 5% pp with spunout, combo penalties you by combo^0.8/maxcombo^0.8...

would be much easier to feedback if we had a thread or wiki that consists of information that tom94 has currently given out..


Also I strongly disagree about FD4D being overrated(actually I think it is underrated.) but I agree that medium high bpm(150~180) long streams are bit overrated ). like, say, thousand 150bpm stream would be honestly not that difficult but even 32 streams of 222bpm is ridiculously hard. example would be Mendes, with it having low enough bpm to long stream with ease, it seems to have high difficulty and it gives me the most pp, while it was one of the most easiest map to 99%/FC it.


On the other hand, so called "0108 style maps" are very underrated. maybe high SV is bit underrated. dance number and scarlet rose are super hard but its difficulty is calculated very low, maybe because you don't actually have to "press the keyboard" that much to play those maps due to tons sliders. Assuming you are taking slider correctly into the difficulty, it seems like high SV is bit underrated on current calculation. I see jumps are correctly applied(according to the airman's difficulty) but maybe generally high SV, or map that consists of lots of small jumps are bit unreasonably underrated.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25271
take a look at "bloody rose" difficulty. It is not that hard, but when you play it I'm pretty sure this is hard enough to be an insane difficulty but calculated as "hard" which is ridiculous, because regular 2.49 star diffs are notably easier than this one. Compare it to https://osu.ppy.sh/b/156346&m=0 hard diff which has 2.46 diff but it is easy enough to DT it with ease. The point is, the thing that makes "bloody rose" diff hard is the high SV (which seems underrated right now)

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27639&m=0
Intense diff has 1.91 star rating? you see nearly no DT on the ranking, which indirectly tells you how hard this map is. characteristics? high SV.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27737&m=0
yeah.