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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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TheVileOne
Separate points gained from hitobjects and average the remaining points based on total points possible off the spinners. It wouldn't be as accurate as per spinner data, but those who spin large spin large on all the spinners and would still get some form of a bonus. It would be unfortunate if you could not separate score associated with spinner bonus from score associated with regular hitobjects.
Luna
That is impossible. The system can only read how many 300/100/50/miss you got, but not at which part of the map those actually happened - so there is no way to calculate hit object score. A 1x100 score that had its 100 right at the beginning will beat a 1x100 score where you messed up at the end even if the latter score had way superior spinning.
TheVileOne
peppy is all about future proofing his game. This sure was an oversight.

Anyways even if it only affects newer plays it would be good. ._.
Honza
I have one question. How can I get bigger rank after I've improved my old record? I mean yes if the map is easy I shouldn't get anything but how can I get worse by improving my plays?
tfg50

Honza wrote:

I have one question. How can I get bigger rank after I've improved my old record? I mean yes if the map is easy I shouldn't get anything but how can I get worse by improving my plays?
That means that people passed your rank and when you beat one of your personal bests your rank updates. If you spend 30 seconds looking on the other threads about ranking you can find that answer. You don't even need to use the seach thingy.

Also, keep in mind that sometimes when you get a higher combo (which is the same as more score) but end up messing on the acc, that play might be worth less pp depending on the acc/map. Higher OD = Acc means more.
jesse1412

TheVileOne wrote:

It should be given pp because of several reasons.

1. It's a skill, and an integrated part of playing. There is no argument that can be made that will make me believe otherwise that someone spinning at 470 SPM is performing equally well to someone spinning at 300 SPM.

2. It affects score. A player with a higher score due to something that requires skill should be awarded something even if that something is very marginal. I don't see this value being very high, at least for sane spinning SPMs. If someone averages near what osu! can get for a max spin, then a point given per spinner is reasonable. Given that 1 mod added gives more than that, it would work out. (Obviously the value would change based on length of spinner).

3. At the rate most players spin the bonus would probably be less than 1 pp per spinner and close to nothing near the SPM considered easy to obtain given the OD.

4. Makes beating a score with a better spin rewarding.

5. Gives more points to Incognito, one of the best spinners in osu! Check this map. Adding HardRock isn't enough to take the number one spot. There are people in top 50 who get more points than four mod plays. Spinning ability is certainly more impressive in this map than playing it with all mods.

6. Removes point ceiling on maps. An SS can be worth more points with a better spin.
No one cares about spinning. It's really a shitty skill and it shouldn't be rewarded much, any random crap player can outspin a lot of top players if they try.
AmaiHachimitsu
I think being higher in scoreboard + ability to pass some high drain maps is enough of an award.
TheVileOne
If you need a certain level of spinning to pass a map that map isn't worth playing. Noone should play maps with high drain because they are good at spinning. That will be a reward not taken by pretty much any player.

Is drain even considered at all?
GoldenWolf

TheVileOne wrote:

Is drain even considered at all?
afaik, ppv2 rates how hard it is to FC a map, not to pass it, so I don't think HP drain is considered
nooblet

TheVileOne wrote:

If you need a certain level of spinning to pass a map that map isn't worth playing. Noone should play maps with high drain because they are good at spinning. That will be a reward not taken by pretty much any player.
Plz, #8 disagrees.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24611
TheVileOne
^Nice find. Although unless he plans to be much more accurate, then that performance isn't worth nearly as much as the Hidden players. It's not worth the effort, especially since they have the same score modifier. He could play with hidden and perform better with less effort. Spinners are worth less in Hard Rock as well making it even less of an incentive to use Hard Rock versus hidden as a spinner).

I think the reason why pro players aren't great spinners is because they conserve their stamina for the streams and other sections of the maps. If there was a pro that was a great spinner and a great streamer and could apply both to a map, then that would be a much more impressive performance than one who did the same thing but barely exerted any effort to complete the spin.

If we had more pro players capable of challenging rrty or cookiezi scores, then I think spinning would become much more important to the pro community, because it actually matters. Why should pros care about spinning if the score they get is determined by the number of 100s in the song rather than how fast they spin? I think a lot of pros treat spinners like break time and a map will instantly become more demanding if they were required to actually exert effort during these periods.

The real question here is how much more energy does a vigorous spin take compare to a non-vigorous spin. How much further can a pro stream by not vigorously spinning? Some pros I question whether they even know of to spin to begin with. I've seen them spin so slow that they get a 100 on the spinner. Is it some sort of contest to see how slow one can spin among the pro community?
GoldenWolf
Spinners shouldn't give pp because they don't require rhythm or aim at all, they're pretty much a break time in the map and no cares about them

The purpose of spinners is mainly to untie SS scores, which isn't relevant when players just add more mods to get more impressive scores with high speed, aim and reading demanding skills rather than grabbing a few thousands points from an element that has barely a place in a rhythm game
TheVileOne
Stop saying no one. That's like saying no one cares about number 1 once someone SS ranks it with all mods. Most people who care about spinning don't care about streaming. I guess the same is also true, because of your attitude.

Anyways I am hardly arguing for it's inclusion anymore. I've already stated why it is a skill. Skill doesn't necessarily require rhythm. It would hardly affect the ranks, especially for songs that pros play. I don't understand this bias towards how people get pp in songs that pros don't even play. I want my pp system to be affected based on anything that affects gameplay.

If it affects gameplay, then it affects the difficulty. If it does not affect gameplay then it cannot affect the difficulty. All things that affect the difficulty should be considered in a pp related system.
GoldenWolf
But spinning is a skill that isn't relevant in a rhythm game
I don't see why it should be considered in the pp calculation, I want pp to rate how good I am at this circle clicking rhythm game, not how good I am at drawing circles as fast as possible without caring about the rhythm aspect
TheVileOne
It obviously wouldn't affect you. I mean who is purposefully trying to grind out every last pp a song is worth? I have tried to state that the amount it would award would be small (probably less than 1 pp) unless you are spinning near the bonus that auto is getting for a spin. Add weight to this and the amount added would be barely anything at a pro level rank. When you get down to the casual level rank, fractions of a pp are worth more.

I mean the pp system is already adding pp for each new map completion regardless of performance. Do you think that this aspect of pp is not boosting your rank by an unknown amount based on your playcount? How do you know where you actually stand in terms of people with different play counts. pp is already inaccurate and this would make it slightly more accurate, favoring people who have number 1s and not necessarily in maps that pros care about.

It's going to require per object hit data anyways. If Tom ever implements per object pp calculations then I expect this to be added as well. This may not be for awhile. This would require everyone to have to replay their scores to get the correct amount of pp. This would severely affect some pros.
GoldenWolf
It's not boosting anyone's rank since we all have this (very) small bonus
And I don't think/see how this would make the system any more accurate, having a 1st isn't the most accurate representative way of someone's skill when ranked score is already flawed (hello HD FL over HD HR / HD DT)
TheVileOne
Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?

I agree that Hard rock is very underrated in some maps score-wise. I believe that tied scores that are worth more pp should be submitted. It's debatable whether other cases where there is a conflict between how much a play is worth and how much points it has should be considered. I don't think this falls into the same boat as spinning harder requires more effort which reduces ones ability to play the map in general.

Eh... the difference would just be a representation of the extra effort taken to achieve a better score. Spinners were not intended to be treated as break time.

It would be more accurate in that it would consider something that affects gameplay and difficulty. It is not accurate to treat the level of effort required to clear a spinner as static. A person who spins very hard will be more likely to combo break than someone who doesn't. It takes more stamina to take a number 1 rank than it does to just SS in a map where there is an SS all mods. The difference needs to be considered, because just the fact that mods were played is not enough to correctly calculate performance.
Mathsma

TheVileOne wrote:

Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43003

It's easier to FL that map than it is to DT it, that is what he meant.
jesse1412

Mathsma wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Shouldn't HD FL be valued the same as HD DT?

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43003

It's easier to FL that map than it is to DT it, that is what he meant.
No I'm pretty sure he means that hd and hd combined give less combo multiplier than fl hd, which I think is true (someone correct me?)
AmaiHachimitsu

jesus1412 wrote:

No I'm pretty sure he means that hd and hd combined give less combo multiplier than fl hd, which I think is true (someone correct me?)
hd and hd? If you meant HD DT then no, the multiplier is the same.




A person who spins very hard will be more likely to combo break than someone who doesn't. It takes more stamina to take a number 1 rank than it does to just SS in a map where there is an SS all mods. The difference needs to be considered, because just the fact that mods were played is not enough to correctly calculate performance.
This is pure rubbish right there. Why should it be considered? Because you tried hard spinners and got a bit more sweaty? People still do it even when #1 doesn't matter in PP. As I said, they are #1 (or just the best with given mods) and it's enough of a reward. I'd even say it's exactly what people do want when they engage in a spinner war. It's for sure not a way of saying "I'm better".

Seriously, spinners are not important and everyone, who has some knowledge about the competitive-like side of this game, knows it. Yes, everyone.
PlasticSmoothie

TheVileOne wrote:

I think the reason why pro players aren't great spinners is because they conserve their stamina for the streams and other sections of the maps. If there was a pro that was a great spinner and a great streamer and could apply both to a map, then that would be a much more impressive performance than one who did the same thing but barely exerted any effort to complete the spin.

If we had more pro players capable of challenging rrty or cookiezi scores, then I think spinning would become much more important to the pro community, because it actually matters. Why should pros care about spinning if the score they get is determined by the number of 100s in the song rather than how fast they spin? I think a lot of pros treat spinners like break time and a map will instantly become more demanding if they were required to actually exert effort during these periods.

The real question here is how much more energy does a vigorous spin take compare to a non-vigorous spin. How much further can a pro stream by not vigorously spinning? Some pros I question whether they even know of to spin to begin with. I've seen them spin so slow that they get a 100 on the spinner. Is it some sort of contest to see how slow one can spin among the pro community?
Hi. I'm a person who spins 450+. I doubt it takes much more energy than a lazy spin.
Even if it does, your aiming hand is not your streaming hand. How much energy you use spinning has zero effect on your streaming stamina.
Spinners are not important. The only situation you should ever care about spinners in is if you want #1s on [easy] difficulties or want to pass this map on HR
TheVileOne
Meh. It's true that it wont affect streaming speed, but it does affect aim, especially in high retry maps. Unless you are consistent enough to FC something within a small amount of tries or split your attempts over a longer period of time, there is only so many times you can spin a long spinner in one sitting before you become unable to perform complex movements. This assumes the spinner is not at the end of the map.

There's only so many times I can play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25 before I need to rest and I'm not even spinning nearly as fast as some spinners. Spinning harder does affect my aim afterwards, because I am a mouse user and my hand gets tense after a fast spin. I could spin more slowly and my hand would not tense up. Stamina certainly becomes an issue on really long spinners.

Also notes close after the spinner make it more risky to spin faster. It's much easier to spin like an average spinner than to go into a tight circle around the center like tablet players do or flying around the corners like mouse players do.

I've told you how I feel pp should be calculated. If Tom agrees that it isn't worth the trouble, then I will not cry fowl. I have a different idea about what it should value and nothing can be said that will change my opinions. I am not going to rally people in support for my ideas. Feel free to critique it as you will. I know what adds difficulty for me and no one is going to tell me that it doesn't add difficulty or affects difficulty positively or negatively. That is simply a wrong statement.
Topic Starter
Tom94
It is impossible to find out how good someone has spun without per-hitobject data. If it ever happens there will be a small bonus for spinning well, but it is certain that it will never happen to old scores retroactively. It's simply impossible to recover that data for scores without replays and even the ones with replays would have subtle bugs.

To summarize: A spinner bonus can't possibly happen right now in a fair way, therefore it won't. Sorry. :(
MirinH
i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
Mathsma

- D a s z x - wrote:

i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
Some maps, such as the 0108 maps, rely on reading and difficult patterns. The current system can't rate how difficult patterns are or how hard a map is to read due to some limitations, so the end result is that those maps are undervalued. There are also some other issues with the system, but that is probably the one that is causing the lower star rating for most maps. Tom would like to add that into the rating system but he can't at the moment, whenever he can he will.
nooblet

TheVileOne wrote:

There's only so many times I can play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25 before I need to rest and I'm not even spinning nearly as fast as some spinners. Spinning harder does affect my aim afterwards, because I am a mouse user and my hand gets tense after a fast spin. I could spin more slowly and my hand would not tense up. Stamina certainly becomes an issue on really long spinners.

Also notes close after the spinner make it more risky to spin faster. It's much easier to spin like an average spinner than to go into a tight circle around the center like tablet players do or flying around the corners like mouse players do.
If it's much easier to do it that way... why not just do it then? You're clearly either making things harder for yourself, or just don't spin enough. Seriously, even if it's something completely useless, you will improve if you practice. People just don't work on spinners as much, so most stay within the 350-450 range because that's enough to pass OD10 spinners. If you're missing the note afterwards, just remember where the note is and start moving there a bit earlier. It's really not as hard as you make it sound.

Don't reply with something like "if you're gonna go for 1000 more points". Those 1000 points aren't relevant in high-end maps, and if you have trouble spinning on low-end maps that's just your problem because clearly all the other [Easy] [Normal] players can do it with ease.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- D a s z x - wrote:

i think some maps are harder but the star diff for that is lower, why
There's what Mathsma said, and there are also maps that are a bit overrated (Koigokoro), but nothing can be perfect. The system is usually pretty darn accurate.
It could also be that you find one of streams/jumps easier than the other, so a map filled with the one you find harder would seem more difficult.
silmarilen
koigokoro is overrated as much as any other map is overrated with DT
pielak213
­
eldnl

pielak wrote:

you guys obviously haven't seen this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/42234
hd hr on that map k
Aqo
AmaiHachimitsu
So what about this map? It's just a troll for those who somehow can't spin. But bear in mind that 90% of players can spin incredibly fast (enough to past augoeides or desire dream) and nobody apart from newbs finds it really impressive.

In overall, those kinds of maps are more like DRAIN hard, not SPINNER hard. We're talking about situation where player x has better score than player y because of the spinner. And according to Vile player x should gain more PP for that. I don't need to comment on this idea, I guess.
Soarezi
I cant pass augoeides :(
TheVileOne
Drain is a dumb reason to fail a map under any circumstance. I was only saying that anything that affects difficulty negatively or positively should affect pp. If you say it makes it easier then maps should be worth less pp. I just don't feel like they should be considered like they are break time there when they clearly are more than that.

Also when I made the suggestion I thought that you could figure out the bonus that one could get from the map. The cons slightly outweigh the pros now that it absolutely must require new information to submitted instead of existing plays.
Jean-Christophe_old
I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
mcdoomfrag

Jean-Christophe wrote:

I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.
TheVileOne

mcdoomfrag wrote:

Jean-Christophe wrote:

I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.
Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.

I would say that there's a limit to how much accuracy one should lose though. If you're getting double digit 100s then obviously this will affect your pp count greatly. There is no preventing a terrible performance with an added mod overwriting a good performance.
mcdoomfrag

TheVileOne wrote:

Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.
You know damn well that finding a good balance between not making mods useless without giving them too much reward is a rather complex and subjective solution. Even so, what I meant in that post was aimed more-so towards the notion of being able to disregard your score so that you don't lose PP, or something along those lines. The servers can only store your top score because of the way the system works and has always worked, so Tom94 can only work with that saved score.
Topic Starter
Tom94

TheVileOne wrote:

Make mod usage worth more. Easy fix.

I would say that there's a limit to how much accuracy one should lose though. If you're getting double digit 100s then obviously this will affect your pp count greatly. There is no preventing a terrible performance with an added mod overwriting a good performance.
Mod for at least HardRock and DoubleTime will likely never be adjusted manually. That is, because they are literally treated equally to nomod scores, just with the mods' effects applied.
If anything is at fault, then the algorithm for scaling the wrong way.
Nyxa

silmarilen wrote:

koigokoro is overrated as much as any other map is overrated with DT




I thought harder maps were supposed to give more pp.
Jean-Christophe_old

mcdoomfrag wrote:

Jean-Christophe wrote:

I don't like how I can lose pp by using a mod and getting higher score but lower accuracy. I wouldn't mind just not getting pp but I don't wanna use mods if I'll lose pp unless I work back up to the same accuracy as before.
This has already been discussed multiple times. There is currently no way around this issue.
Compare previous score's pp with new score's pp and use the higher value???

If this is supposed to be an indication of skill then there's no reason to assume a player got worse for having his/her score overwritten with one of lower pp value...

If new pp value is smaller than current pp value for some map, don't change the pp. That's one line of code. Seems like common sense to me to make it work that way.

Only data you need is pp obtained and pp for the same map for the same player which looks like it's stored on server.

Maybe there can be a disconnect between pp given for a map and top score saved but that doesn't really matter.
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