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about Bloody Night vs Refrain. They're very similar in mapping (barely any hard jumps, streams at 9 circles maximum), but refrain is faster and has higher OD, so naturally it's considered harder by the system

Then the system is flawed. They aren't even close to similar, refrain is a breeze in comparison.

rexcannon_iii wrote:

I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.

fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.

Hey everyone,
what could be the reason that, even if I improve my ranking on a beat map - my global ranking goes lower?
Just played http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125785 on Normal and got a ranked around 3000 because I missed one note close to the end my global ranking was around #53,359. So I replayed the song with 2x time and got ranked at 893 and ended up with a global ranking of #53,361 - which doesn't make really sense too me, can anyone enlighten me?

While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.

Correct.

The score didn't give any pp because it's weighted st 0%. That's because you have scores that are rated much harder than this one, so all this score did for you was, as PlasticSmoothie said, updating your pp. Other players have passed you before and thus your rank was lowered. (You're still in a range where you need very few pp for huge ranking changes, so it's not uncommon for a fair amount of people to surpass you in a relatively short amount of time.)

Zare wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.

Correct.

The score didn't give any pp because it's weighted st 0%. That's because you have scores that are rated much harder than this one, so all this score did for you was, as PlasticSmoothie said, updating your pp. Other players have passed you before and thus your rank was lowered. (You're still in a range where you need very few pp for huge ranking changes, so it's not uncommon for a fair amount of people to surpass you in a relatively short amount of time.)

Thanks for clarification

silmarilen wrote:

rexcannon_iii wrote:

I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.

fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.

This is a feedback thread, too often do I see this answer though. I understand difficulty can be subjective but in this case the maps are flat out different in their difficulty to the point it should be obvious so I'm providing feedback according to this and so are the other users that get hit with this answer.



That eliminates the point of a feedback thread.

rexcannon_iii wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.

This is a feedback thread, too often do I see this answer though. I understand difficulty can be subjective but in this case the maps are flat out different in their difficulty to the point it should be obvious so I'm providing feedback according to this and so are the other users that get hit with this answer.



That eliminates the point of a feedback thread.

i played both the maps and i agree that bloody night is more difficult on a technical level, but it is lower bpm and the od is lower so it makes sense that it may give less pp

I was wondering if maps with a high OD + a large amount of hit circles would give more pp than maps with high OD, but lots of sliders. I know you're taking each skill set into consideration (aim, speed, accuracy), but I feel like high OD maps with much more hit circles than sliders should be favored slightly more over sliderspam maps. Maps with lots of sliders and high BPM should give an aim boost rather than accuracy, especially if the AR is high.

Speaking of high AR's, are they considered in the calculation at all? AR8 and AR10+ definitely deserve some sort of boost. Reading is a skill separate from the others (aim, speed, accuracy) and should be taken into consideration in my opinion, especially on maps that go above AR10 with DT. DTHR is an extremely hard mod combo, and I know that it would probably give a good boost already, but I wondered if it's AR changes affected pp gain in any way.

Also, silmarilen is right. I've played both of those, and though Bloody Night might be harder in terms of jumps, Refrain is harder overall. It has smaller jumps and slightly shorter streams, but it's faster and has higher OD. I always miss at least one note on it, and when I don't, I get shit accuracy. It's much easier to get a good accuracy on Bloody Night.

AR above 10 and below 8 gives a bonus. Only circles are taken into consideration for accuracy.

There is so much pages and I can't read it fully so I might repeat some guys, sorry for this.

I just wanted to point out some things about mods' worth. That may be wrong but that's my feeling about it right now.
In my rank, I just see that I can't win anything if I don't play DT. I'm not a HR player so I can't tell with this mod but HD seems to be completely devaluated.
I'll try to give one example :


This is only one example and I've seen this many times. For a HD player, I just feel that playing with HD became useless : using DT with a higher accuracy allow you to earn more pp. Sadly, the difficulty is increased with HD so, technically, I should earned more. (at least for a diff less than 1% acc)
So here come my suggestion : Is there any possibility that HD get a better place in general and vs DT? Secondly, when you add it to DT mode, is it possible to be rewarded more than only using DT?

I just think that if we do nothing, this mod will just die.
If you want something more detailled, I can do it later but I just wanted to expose the main idea first.
Thank you for reading <3

shARPII wrote:

There is so much pages and I can't read it fully so I might repeat some guys, sorry for this.

I just wanted to point out some things about mods' worth. That may be wrong but that's my feeling about it right now.
In my rank, I just see that I can't win anything if I don't play DT. I'm not a HR player so I can't tell with this mod but HD seems to be completely devaluated.
I'll try to give one example :

Example

The map is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155404?m=0
Scores are


My top rank

His top rank

This is only one example and I've seen this many times. For a HD player, I just feel that playing with HD became useless : using DT with a higher accuracy allow you to earn more pp. Sadly, the difficulty is increased with HD so, technically, I should earned more. (at least for a diff less than 1% acc)
So here come my suggestion : Is there any possibility that HD get a better place in general and vs DT? Secondly, when you add it to DT mode, is it possible to be rewarded more than only using DT?

I just think that if we do nothing, this mod will just die.
If you want something more detailled, I can do it later but I just wanted to expose the main idea first.
Thank you for reading <3

HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.
Also, take in consideration that difference between 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc is considerable.

Full Tablet wrote:

HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.
Also, take in consideration that difference between 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc is considerable.

That's why I said that, for me, the bonus is too low corrently.
Moreover, less than 1% difference isn't and shoudn't be considerable. HD is adding an other difficulty so, for this, it should be the same value or even more.
I'm just saying that taking the risk to pick HD isn't rewarded at all or, if it is, not enough.

The difference between 92% and 93% is fairly insignificant. The difference between 98.92% and 99.64% is not (and if you think it's insignificant, why don't you have a 99.64% score?) because 98.92% is literally 3 times as many 100s as 99.64%. The "risk" of picking hidden is actually rewarded a ton if you play hidden well. To a lot of people, hidden is identical to nomod on most maps and it's worth an 18% bonus to aim. If that bonus isn't enough for you, it simply means that you're not good enough at hidden.

shARPII wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.
Also, take in consideration that difference between 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc is considerable.

That's why I said that, for me, the bonus is too low corrently.
Moreover, less than 1% difference isn't and shoudn't be considerable. HD is adding an other difficulty so, for this, it should be the same value or even more.
I'm just saying that taking the risk to pick HD isn't rewarded at all or, if it is, not enough.

A way of comparing 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc in that map.

If the chance of hitting a 300 in a slider is assumed to be 100%, then, if the chance of hitting 300 in a circle is 97.61% (assuming you get a 100 if you don't get a 300), then the chances of getting 98.92%acc or more are about 50%. With that same probability of hitting a circle (97.61%), the chances of getting an accuracy of 99.64% or more are 1.28%.

The difference is not that big when comparing 2 accuracies that aren't so close to 100%
Comparing 90%acc with 91%acc:
If the probability of getting a 300 is 79.33% for each circle, the probability of getting at least 90%acc is 50%. With that same probability for each circle, the chances of getting at least 91%acc are 15.89% (the difference in probability is considerably less in this case).

Because of this, the accuracy score shouldn't increase linearly with the accuracy percentage. Instead, each 1% of increment should award more than the last one when comparing 90%acc with 91%acc, 91%acc with 92%acc, etc... (like it does currently).

Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.

Well, ok, I agree with you Full Tablet (for the part about accuracy).
But I'm just trying to say that HD isn't "gainful" currently. If I want the same pp than the other one, I'll need what? 1 or 2 one hundred more than his score max?
I feel this is stupid. You make 1 more 100 than a friend and you'll get the same pp than him without HD when that's easier?
Why playing HD then, when you can assure easily a better accuray with no mod? You'll be sure to get the same amount of pp without any risk.

So yeah...

shARPII wrote:

Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.

I suck at hidden and almost never play it. However, I was quoting people who do play hidden well (in fact, I know someone who has a lot more trouble playing maps without hidden than with it). The irony is that this statement actually just shows that you aren't good enough with it. Sure, there are maps out there that are harder with hidden (and some considerably so), but there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.

What you're not understanding (and what a lot of people who post in this thread don't understand) is that the pp system isn't meant to reward you for what YOU find hard. It's meant to reward you for doing things that require more skill to do. Maybe you personally aren't good enough with hidden to match your nomod accuracy closely enough to avoid completely nullifying your 18% aim bonus, but that doesn't mean you should get points for playing hidden - it means you SHOULDN'T get points for playing hidden because you're not playing it up to par.

Ultimately, since pp rewards FC plays so highly in comparison to non-FC plays (and really high acc plays very highly in comparison to lower acc plays), the scores that get you a lot of points will often feel overvalued and easy and the scores that give you fewer points are the ones that you'll feel were hard. While it may occasionally be due to quirks and flaws in the pp system, the effect is largely due to the fact that you get more pp for things you can play well and less pp for things you can't play well, making the latter feel undervalued.

GhostFrog wrote:

shARPII wrote:

Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.

I suck at hidden and almost never play it. However, I was quoting people who do play hidden well (in fact, I know someone who has a lot more trouble playing maps without hidden than with it). The irony is that this statement actually just shows that you aren't good enough with it. Sure, there are maps out there that are harder with hidden (and some considerably so), but there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.

What you're not understanding (and what a lot of people who post in this thread don't understand) is that the pp system isn't meant to reward you for what YOU find hard. It's meant to reward you for doing things that require more skill to do. Maybe you personally aren't good enough with hidden to match your nomod accuracy closely enough to avoid completely nullifying your 18% aim bonus, but that doesn't mean you should get points for playing hidden - it means you SHOULDN'T get points for playing hidden because you're not playing it up to par.

Ultimately, since pp rewards FC plays so highly in comparison to non-FC plays (and really high acc plays very highly in comparison to lower acc plays), the scores that get you a lot of points will often feel overvalued and easy and the scores that give you fewer points are the ones that you'll feel were hard. While it may occasionally be due to quirks and flaws in the pp system, the effect is largely due to the fact that you get more pp for things you can play well and less pp for things you can't play well, making the latter feel undervalued.

I wish more people understood that. They really need to read this post and TRY to understand it, instead of just disregarding it and going "why am I not getting pp for ~90% acc on scarlet rose hurr"

shARPII wrote:

Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.

Well, ok, I agree with you Full Tablet (for the part about accuracy).
But I'm just trying to say that HD isn't "gainful" currently. If I want the same pp than the other one, I'll need what? 1 or 2 one hundred more than his score max?
I feel this is stupid. You make 1 more 100 than a friend and you'll get the same pp than him without HD when that's easier?
Why playing HD then, when you can assure easily a better accuray with no mod? You'll be sure to get the same amount of pp without any risk.

So yeah...

The problem is, that the difficulty of HD is perceived differently for everyone. The guy in charge considers it to affect aim by a lot and accuracy only by a little, so he manipulated the pp calculations according to that. This may not make sense to you and a lot of other players, but it's just the way it is.

Ziggo wrote:

shARPII wrote:

Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.

Well, ok, I agree with you Full Tablet (for the part about accuracy).
But I'm just trying to say that HD isn't "gainful" currently. If I want the same pp than the other one, I'll need what? 1 or 2 one hundred more than his score max?
I feel this is stupid. You make 1 more 100 than a friend and you'll get the same pp than him without HD when that's easier?
Why playing HD then, when you can assure easily a better accuray with no mod? You'll be sure to get the same amount of pp without any risk.

So yeah...

The problem is, that the difficulty of HD is perceived differently for everyone. The guy in charge considers it to affect aim by a lot and accuracy only by a little, so he manipulated the pp calculations according to that. This may not make sense to you and a lot of other players, but it's just the way it is.

I'm actually trying to represent the opinions which I'm seeing most frequently / prominently. pp would look quite a bit differently if it'd be just based only on what I'd like to see.

So yeah, your opinions don't go unheard, even if I don't respond. Often I find other people answering questions / explaining behaviour well enough, making me not feel the need to answer.

GhostFrog wrote:

shARPII wrote:

there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.

This is generally the case for me. If I know a map's rhythm, playing it with HD only makes it hard to aim occasionally (with hit circles under sliderends that I don't always see) but that's about it. If I can FC a map nomods without too much trouble, FC'ing it with HD won't be much more trouble, and I suck with HD (as compared to other HD players of around my level).

Also, 98->99% accuracy is a 100% increase in 100's. You're just underestimating the difference between 98 and 99% accuracy. Try getting >99% on that map and watch what happens with your pp.

Perhaps it is easy for you, because you have played enough that you have just become more accurate in general. Being able to time hits correctly is a skill that some people take for granted when they play. Many people develop bad habits that make them less accurate. The people who know what they are doing don't need to rely on the approach circles to be accurate. They had to develop this ability though. It is far easier to take advantage of the generous hit window instead of actually learning when to hit.

The same also applies to streaming, but in a more skillful way. It takes skill to stream at a particular BPM. Streaming at the correct BPM for the song is far better than taking advantage of the hit window that allows you to lag behind or hit late and still get a 300.

Hidden takes away some of the things that people with bad habits use to play. Lagging behind on a stream will certainly ruin your timing coming out of the stream, and it becomes harder to recover. People who stay accurate will not need to deal with finding the rhythm again and will find playing easier.

Hidden is harder in that it obscures that hit window, and requires that the player remember the hit window, and the BPM. In most cases, this mod will increase a player's unstable rate for a song unless there is a really well defined rhythm. The more chances where a player can lose the rhythm, the harder the map will be to play with hidden. This is why easier difficulties tend to be harder with hidden. It is easier to lose the rhythm and the delay between when a circle appears and when it needs to be hit is longer.

I reckon it would be hard to define the difficulty of hidden on a per map level.

Some quick guidelines

-Lower AR = harder with hidden (Because our brains our used to playing with higher ARs/less delay)

-2/1 or greater gaps in the beat = harder with hidden (We can't rely on consistent rhythm to hit these. It is why people have problems hitting the first object in a map in Hidden)

-Faster jumps and streams tend to require more accuracy by default and so the burden to keep timing is less apparent (This is why people find Hidden not a large step up from how they usually play. Faster = easier. Slower = harder)

-Sliders are not any more difficult in Hidden. (However maps that contain streams that alternate between sliders and circles can interfere with a player's timing)

-Stacked/hidden objects are slightly more difficult. People who haven't yet started playing according to musical cues or hasn't developed muscle memory to overcome the need for musical cues will find that obscure objects will be harder to hit, because they can't observe the object's fade, and as such will have to know beforehand the correct timing to hit the object. A single mistimed hit can spoil the whole string of objects.

-Most will probably find Hidden+ Flashlight harder than Hardrock + Flashlight given the same amount of skill level in playing both hidden and hardrock alone in the same map. Flashlight with hidden has the side effect of rendering the entire map as if it is obscured like a stack. There is no space for error when you can't see what you are hitting.

TheVileOne wrote:

2/1 or greater gaps in the beat = harder with hidden (We can't rely on consistent rhythm to hit these. It is why people have problems hitting the first object in a map in Hidden)

Partially disagree with this, first note is hard to hit because there is no music before (in most cases) so you have no clue what's the rhythm there, when you're already playing the map you can at least have a metronome going on in your head to keep the beat, even on 2/1 4/1 or more, but the first note is generally some luck on top of reading the fade-in like an approach circle.

Can i erase a score on a map ? I get like 66pp map worth on a map with only HR mode , after that i tried HRHD and i make like 50pp map worth and the score is better with HRHD but with lower acc ... and now even if i make SS with HR only i don't beat my score on HRHD ... so that map is lost for me .. I don't know but for me this isn't fair ... maybe if u make a option to erase a score ... or boost HD , its incredible useless

TheVileOne wrote:

-2/1 or greater gaps in the beat = harder with hidden (We can't rely on consistent rhythm to hit these. It is why people have problems hitting the first object in a map in Hidden)

I find 1/3 and 2/3 notes with HD more difficult than any other neatly divisible timing on my first play (2/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/4). By the second play I remember where they are, only if there are a couple, so I don't think these are an issue except in conjunction with low AR and many interchanges between these different timings in a map. i.e. changes in rhythm + low AR + HD.

Unfortunately the algorithm is tailored to measure your skill based on your absolutely best performances, so you can't count trivial stuff likes changes in rhythm, when retrying a map is what people do anyway to remember anything relatively difficult. The system may not see every map's difficulty the same way we see it, but it is certainly working very well. Even if the methodology is not quite human, it's still a reasonable estimate of skill.

this update turned my osu into shitty laggy game..
quit or wait for them to fix this?

It's probably not the software that is causing lag. By the way this is not the place to report this. Please post in Tech Support.

Priti wrote:

At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.

Shameless self quoting for bumping purposes.

I was comparing some scores, and noticed something weird...
I split the top plays into five columns. Just wondering, even though the top scores are higher on the left-hand side, why does the one on the right end up with more PP? It's a small amount, but higher nonetheless, even though the top 5 scores alone are worth 28.45 more PP for the left side.

nooblet wrote:

I was comparing some scores, and noticed something weird...

SPOILER

I split the top plays into five columns. Just wondering, even though the top scores are higher on the left-hand side, why does the one on the right end up with more PP? It's a small amount, but higher nonetheless, even though the top 5 scores alone are worth 28.45 more PP for the left side.

I hope I calculated it right

10*1.00 + 4*.95 + 7*.90 + 5*.86 + 5*.81

I can check up exactly nothing without you telling me which users this is about.

That being said my theory would be, that the 2nd guy has far more scores in general than the first guy, ending up with a bit more pp due to the base-pp which every score gives.
I forgot to mention this on the wiki-page:

Every score gives a small base pp amount of 0.25, decreasing by a bit with every new highscore that you make. With 1000 highscores you get around 200pp and with 5000 around 400pp. The cap is 416.666pp at the moment, assuming infinitely many highscores are possible.
(pp gain = 0.25 * sum 0.9994^i, i=0 to amount of highscores)

This gets less and less relevant the higher your pp goes and is meant to both encourage playing more maps for the lower-level players and prevent big rank losses after making a new score at the lower ranks.
In the mid-high ranks it is pretty much irrelevant, since 99% of the people have enough highscores to be less than 50pp away from the cap.

Tom94 wrote:

I can check up exactly nothing without you telling me which users this is about.

That being said my theory would be, that the 2nd guy has far more scores in general than the first guy, ending up with a bit more pp due to the base-pp which every score gives.
I forgot to mention this on the wiki-page:

Every score gives a small base pp amount of 0.25, decreasing by a bit with every new highscore that you make. With 1000 highscores you get around 200pp and with 5000 around 400pp. The cap is 416.666pp at the moment, assuming infinitely many highscores are possible.
(pp gain = 0.25 * sum 0.9994^i, i=0 to amount of highscores)

This gets less and less relevant the higher your pp goes and is meant to both encourage playing more maps for the lower-level players and prevent big rank losses after making a new score at the lower ranks.
In the mid-high ranks it is pretty much irrelevant, since 99% of the people have enough highscores to be less than 50pp away from the cap.

Ah thank you, that's definitely it then. Guess it's time to download more beatmaps I don't even have that many beatmaps (including other modes) in total yet

After checking the algorithm for speed value of a score I have a question.

According to this, the OD of a map is not taken into account. Why is that? I mean sure, OD >supposedly< only affects accuracy, but if OD is completely ignored while calculating speed difficulty, or the value of a score, wouldn't that mean that the system thinks that every player who gets an 98% score on a random OD6 or OD7 200 BPM stream map is actually able to stream that fast, even when they're effectively just streaming 170 BPM? they can still SS relatively long streams if they start clicking early and end late when the map is low OD like that.

Or is this covered/prevented by the Accuracy factor which is also mentioned?

Zare wrote:

After checking the algorithm for speed value of a score I have a question.

According to this, the OD of a map is not taken into account. Why is that? I mean sure, OD >supposedly< only affects accuracy, but if OD is completely ignored while calculating speed difficulty, or the value of a score, wouldn't that mean that the system thinks that every player who gets an 98% score on a random OD6 or OD7 200 BPM stream map is actually able to stream that fast, even when they're effectively just streaming 170 BPM? they can still SS relatively long streams if they start clicking early and end late when the map is low OD like that.

Or is this covered/prevented by the Accuracy factor which is also mentioned?

The accuracy factor also depends on OD, so yeah, it is effected by this.

- Length of the beatmap in hit objects / hit circles
- Example: Draining time is 2 minutes; 1,000 objects > 500 objects.
- Likewise: 1,000 objects; Drain time 2 minutes > Drain time 5 minutes

What exactly is going on here? I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by this part of the wiki :S

Edit:

Luna wrote:

Basically, high note density = hard, low density = easy
10 notes per second is harder than 5 notes per second
Simple stuff like that

Oh, now I get it. I wouldn't have guess that the figures were used to explain such a simple concept. I feel dumb now

Basically, high note density = hard, low density = easy
10 notes per second is harder than 5 notes per second
Simple stuff like that

Just another quick question here.

I must have the wrong idea how this works because I look at this score I got here,



Doesn't this mean it's supposed to give me 17% of 106pp (18pp)? Because I 'm pretty sure it didn't give me any pp at all.

The score did give you 18pp, but you didn't see the full effect because by getting the score, you also pushed down a lot of other scores into lower weightings.
So while this score gave you a bunch of pp, the slightly worse scores you already had previously lost some of their value. It evened out and you probably gained slightly less than a full pp after everything was calculated.

That's not very encouraging honestly.