To add to it, Tom already said that to get a proper algorithm that considers every possible aspect he'd need to have per-hitobject data, which is currently not available.
Getting combo and decent accuracy on OD 10+ fullscreen jumps doesn't sound like something many people would bother grinding. Remote Control already requires a bit of luck (or a ton of skill if you can do it consistently) to FC without DT.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
I guess remote control with dt will be the next big thing to grind, seems many people already are trying to get good scores at it
Though that's just because it's an X difficulty.. being done with DT... I think if any other X were able to be fc with DT similar thing would happen.
..im just assuming the new star system is directly related to ppv2
The idea has been suggested before. Not sure if there has been feedback, but it sure would be nice to compare how much difference combo/accuracy would make xD.TheVileOne wrote:
I just wanted to throw out this idea I've been thinking of. I've been worrying about losing pp when I play a song with mods because I get more 100s. Perhaps we should be allowed to choose whether we want to submit a ranked score if it rewards less pp than our current personal best. It would certainly alleviate my concerns about replacing a SS with something not a SS but with mods.
Here's my proposal. It involves trying to treat streams and singles separately. I'm aware of the general points of the current pp system, but obviously I may be ignorant of lots of things.mcdoomfrag wrote:
-Chronopolis- wrote:
Low spacing with higher bpm--> Aim-Algorithm sees as being easier, because the average cursor speed is lower.
220bpm single tap --> Speed-Algorithm sees this as being easier, because 220 bpm 1/2 is nowhere near 172 1/4.Tom94 wrote:
Another reason at least for some of these maps to be underrated is, that they feature quick single passages with low spacing which gets underrated in the current algorithm. Couldn't really find a way to fix that without completely breaking spaced streams yet.
Sliders are ignored in accuracy calculations so your acc was like maybe 93% which does hurt a lot. Also as mcdoomfrag pointed out, fast singles that aren't far spaced are underrated for pp. The score was worth 162pp AFAIK on your profile.Soulg wrote:
are sliders still undervalued? http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1440488 got 0 pp for this even thought it was by far the hardest FC i have. yeah the accuracy is low... but still
Soulg wrote:
are sliders still undervalued? http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1440488 got 0 pp for this even thought it was by far the hardest FC i have. yeah the accuracy is low... but still
Tom94 wrote:
The reason is, that the current way sliders are dealt with is very generous in terms of the slider's favor. Currently there is no measure as how hard it is to actually follow a slider. The minimum distance you have to move to complete the slider is added up to the jump to the next hitobject, but that's it atm. This "minimum distance" is required to not give fast repeatsliders, or even worse: slider-streams, ridiculous pp amounts.
I'd like this to get some considerationPriti wrote:
At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
The "Easy" difficulties I looked at out of those were actually Normals. I don't really think this is a big deal because of that.Zare wrote:
I'd like this to get some considerationPriti wrote:
At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
They're not Normals wtf. Most of these use 1/1 at MOST, Normals usually have a fair amount of 1/2 to get them players used to playing these, in an attempt to prepare them for HardsEkaru wrote:
The "Easy" difficulties I looked at out of those were actually Normals. I don't really think this is a big deal because of that.
It works something like this:miroslavklose wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked or if its a dumb questions, but what is the pp value stated on your top performance. Is it the amount of pp the song is worth and then your percentage is the amount you play gets? because for example on the song souzou forest it says 39 pp 26% on my friends, his says 102pp 9%. I know his play is much better than mines, but i'm still wondering what exactly do teh pp value and the percentage mean, and if the pp on top is already with the calculated percentage.
On Osutp The refrain song has 4 more levels of speed and 2 more levels of aim than Bloody Night, which means it has overall level 41 vs 38. Not sure how much this means in terms of pp but it seems even if you get close to FC on Bloody Night the overall higher difficulty of The Refrain has given you more pp.rexcannon_iii wrote:
So this game means to tell me that my best performance ever was on the Jun.A map?
In reality it's not even close to my best.
EDIT I got 99.7% on bloody night...This isn't right.
fix'drexcannon_iii wrote:
I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.
Correct.PlasticSmoothie wrote:
While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.
Thanks for clarificationZare wrote:
Correct.PlasticSmoothie wrote:
While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.
The score didn't give any pp because it's weighted st 0%. That's because you have scores that are rated much harder than this one, so all this score did for you was, as PlasticSmoothie said, updating your pp. Other players have passed you before and thus your rank was lowered. (You're still in a range where you need very few pp for huge ranking changes, so it's not uncommon for a fair amount of people to surpass you in a relatively short amount of time.)
silmarilen wrote:
fix'drexcannon_iii wrote:
I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.
i played both the maps and i agree that bloody night is more difficult on a technical level, but it is lower bpm and the od is lower so it makes sense that it may give less pprexcannon_iii wrote:
silmarilen wrote:
fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.
This is a feedback thread, too often do I see this answer though. I understand difficulty can be subjective but in this case the maps are flat out different in their difficulty to the point it should be obvious so I'm providing feedback according to this and so are the other users that get hit with this answer.
That eliminates the point of a feedback thread.
HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.shARPII wrote:
There is so much pages and I can't read it fully so I might repeat some guys, sorry for this.
I just wanted to point out some things about mods' worth. That may be wrong but that's my feeling about it right now.
In my rank, I just see that I can't win anything if I don't play DT. I'm not a HR player so I can't tell with this mod but HD seems to be completely devaluated.
I'll try to give one example :ExampleThe map is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155404?m=0
Scores are
My top rank
His top rank
This is only one example and I've seen this many times. For a HD player, I just feel that playing with HD became useless : using DT with a higher accuracy allow you to earn more pp. Sadly, the difficulty is increased with HD so, technically, I should earned more. (at least for a diff less than 1% acc)
So here come my suggestion : Is there any possibility that HD get a better place in general and vs DT? Secondly, when you add it to DT mode, is it possible to be rewarded more than only using DT?
I just think that if we do nothing, this mod will just die.
If you want something more detailled, I can do it later but I just wanted to expose the main idea first.
Thank you for reading <3
That's why I said that, for me, the bonus is too low corrently.Full Tablet wrote:
HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.
Also, take in consideration that difference between 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc is considerable.
A way of comparing 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc in that map.shARPII wrote:
That's why I said that, for me, the bonus is too low corrently.Full Tablet wrote:
HD does give a pp bonus (18% bonus to the aim part of the calculation, and a very small bonus to accuracy). So, currently, HD gives a bonus mainly to maps that are hard aim-wise.
Also, take in consideration that difference between 99.64%acc and 98.92%acc is considerable.
Moreover, less than 1% difference isn't and shoudn't be considerable. HD is adding an other difficulty so, for this, it should be the same value or even more.
I'm just saying that taking the risk to pick HD isn't rewarded at all or, if it is, not enough.
I suck at hidden and almost never play it. However, I was quoting people who do play hidden well (in fact, I know someone who has a lot more trouble playing maps without hidden than with it). The irony is that this statement actually just shows that you aren't good enough with it. Sure, there are maps out there that are harder with hidden (and some considerably so), but there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.shARPII wrote:
Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.
I wish more people understood that. They really need to read this post and TRY to understand it, instead of just disregarding it and going "why am I not getting pp for ~90% acc on scarlet rose hurr"GhostFrog wrote:
I suck at hidden and almost never play it. However, I was quoting people who do play hidden well (in fact, I know someone who has a lot more trouble playing maps without hidden than with it). The irony is that this statement actually just shows that you aren't good enough with it. Sure, there are maps out there that are harder with hidden (and some considerably so), but there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.shARPII wrote:
Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.
What you're not understanding (and what a lot of people who post in this thread don't understand) is that the pp system isn't meant to reward you for what YOU find hard. It's meant to reward you for doing things that require more skill to do. Maybe you personally aren't good enough with hidden to match your nomod accuracy closely enough to avoid completely nullifying your 18% aim bonus, but that doesn't mean you should get points for playing hidden - it means you SHOULDN'T get points for playing hidden because you're not playing it up to par.
Ultimately, since pp rewards FC plays so highly in comparison to non-FC plays (and really high acc plays very highly in comparison to lower acc plays), the scores that get you a lot of points will often feel overvalued and easy and the scores that give you fewer points are the ones that you'll feel were hard. While it may occasionally be due to quirks and flaws in the pp system, the effect is largely due to the fact that you get more pp for things you can play well and less pp for things you can't play well, making the latter feel undervalued.
The problem is, that the difficulty of HD is perceived differently for everyone. The guy in charge considers it to affect aim by a lot and accuracy only by a little, so he manipulated the pp calculations according to that. This may not make sense to you and a lot of other players, but it's just the way it is.shARPII wrote:
Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.
Well, ok, I agree with you Full Tablet (for the part about accuracy).
But I'm just trying to say that HD isn't "gainful" currently. If I want the same pp than the other one, I'll need what? 1 or 2 one hundred more than his score max?
I feel this is stupid. You make 1 more 100 than a friend and you'll get the same pp than him without HD when that's easier?
Why playing HD then, when you can assure easily a better accuray with no mod? You'll be sure to get the same amount of pp without any risk.
So yeah...
I'm actually trying to represent the opinions which I'm seeing most frequently / prominently. pp would look quite a bit differently if it'd be just based only on what I'd like to see.Ziggo wrote:
The problem is, that the difficulty of HD is perceived differently for everyone. The guy in charge considers it to affect aim by a lot and accuracy only by a little, so he manipulated the pp calculations according to that. This may not make sense to you and a lot of other players, but it's just the way it is.shARPII wrote:
Sadly, saying that hidden is identical to nomod simply means that you don't play HD or you're not good enough with it.
Well, ok, I agree with you Full Tablet (for the part about accuracy).
But I'm just trying to say that HD isn't "gainful" currently. If I want the same pp than the other one, I'll need what? 1 or 2 one hundred more than his score max?
I feel this is stupid. You make 1 more 100 than a friend and you'll get the same pp than him without HD when that's easier?
Why playing HD then, when you can assure easily a better accuray with no mod? You'll be sure to get the same amount of pp without any risk.
So yeah...
This is generally the case for me. If I know a map's rhythm, playing it with HD only makes it hard to aim occasionally (with hit circles under sliderends that I don't always see) but that's about it. If I can FC a map nomods without too much trouble, FC'ing it with HD won't be much more trouble, and I suck with HD (as compared to other HD players of around my level).GhostFrog wrote:
shARPII wrote:
there are plenty of people out there who won't find the average map at their level any more difficult with hidden than without.
Partially disagree with this, first note is hard to hit because there is no music before (in most cases) so you have no clue what's the rhythm there, when you're already playing the map you can at least have a metronome going on in your head to keep the beat, even on 2/1 4/1 or more, but the first note is generally some luck on top of reading the fade-in like an approach circle.TheVileOne wrote:
2/1 or greater gaps in the beat = harder with hidden (We can't rely on consistent rhythm to hit these. It is why people have problems hitting the first object in a map in Hidden)