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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Oskur

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

pold10 wrote:

Control Remote
Mind linking such a map? Never heard of Control Remote!
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53857
hehe
not overrated at all. those jumps with DT are bloody difficult.
uzzi

TMoI wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53857
Oh but that's Remote Control!!! Not Control Remote!!!

Haha.

Yeah those jumps on DT are a whole new thing, especially with that OD.
Oskur
Yeah, as it is now, it's OD9 AR9 with jumps that stretch across the screen at a decent BPM and normal CS.

So I'd assume it'd be worth some.
Pold

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

pold10 wrote:

Control Remote
Mind linking such a map? Never heard of Control Remote!
Lol, my bad... xD

TMoI wrote:

Yeah, as it is now, it's OD9 AR9 with jumps that stretch across the screen at a decent BPM and normal CS.

So I'd assume it'd be worth some.
Indeed it's not easy at all, can't deny that, but I still feel like it's a little too much.
-ArmoredTitan-
Not sure if this counts as a suggestion or a feature request, but it would be nice to have a separate sub-ranking and/or best performance list for selected mods :)

For example, one would be able to choose a combination of mods (e.g. HDFL only) so that only scores using those mods will contribute to pp. That way we can compete with people who use specific mod combinations, as well as see where we ourselves are positioned.

An alternative for the second feature (best performance) would be to display the mods used to achieve that score next to the pp value. That way we can distinguish between HDDT and HDHR scores (because as of now, we'll never know what mods a player used to get that C in his best performance).
Topic Starter
Tom94
It's a known issue, that jumps scale too much in the very high end. Since this only concerns a veeeery small amount of scores (e.g. the ones that come close to FCing remote control with DT) it doesn't have a high priority, though.
dennischan

Priti wrote:

At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
Thats a nice idea, though actually most normals are easy anyway
Vuelo Eluko

Tom94 wrote:

It's a known issue, that jumps scale too much in the very high end. Since this only concerns a veeeery small amount of scores (e.g. the ones that come close to FCing remote control with DT) it doesn't have a high priority, though.
I guess remote control with dt will be the next big thing to grind, seems many people already are trying to get good scores at it

Though that's just because it's an X difficulty.. being done with DT... I think if any other X were able to be fc with DT similar thing would happen.
..im just assuming the new star system is directly related to ppv2
TheVileOne
I just wanted to throw out this idea I've been thinking of. I've been worrying about losing pp when I play a song with mods because I get more 100s. Perhaps we should be allowed to choose whether we want to submit a ranked score if it rewards less pp than our current personal best. It would certainly alleviate my concerns about replacing a SS with something not a SS but with mods.
Oskur
Also, how much does not FCing due to 100s on sliders hurt you? (i.e. x1000 v x999 due to getting a 100 on a slider)

EDIT: *hurt pp gain
GoldenWolf

TMoI wrote:

Also, how much does not FCing due to 100s on sliders hurt you? (i.e. x1000 v x999 due to getting a 100 on a slider)
it usually kills me
Oskur

GoldenWolf wrote:

TMoI wrote:

Also, how much does not FCing due to 100s on sliders hurt you? (i.e. x1000 v x999 due to getting a 100 on a slider)
it usually kills me
same

although I should have phrased that better, I should have said hurt pp. Will edit.
-Chronopolis-
I find that fast single tap maps (bpm 210-250) that aren't jumpy are underrated.

For example, I think http://osu.ppy.sh/s/45422 is at least about as hard as http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43466 , but the stacks and small jumps make dear you more highly rated.

The difficulty comes from tapping and snapping at 220 bpm, and there are a few chains of up to 10.

Low spacing with higher bpm--> Aim-Algorithm sees as being easier, because the average cursor speed is lower.
220bpm single tap --> Speed-Algorithm sees this as being easier, because 220 bpm 1/2 is nowhere near 172 1/4.
mcdoomfrag

-Chronopolis- wrote:

Low spacing with higher bpm--> Aim-Algorithm sees as being easier, because the average cursor speed is lower.
220bpm single tap --> Speed-Algorithm sees this as being easier, because 220 bpm 1/2 is nowhere near 172 1/4.

Tom94 wrote:

Another reason at least for some of these maps to be underrated is, that they feature quick single passages with low spacing which gets underrated in the current algorithm. Couldn't really find a way to fix that without completely breaking spaced streams yet.
Horolynn
To add to it, Tom already said that to get a proper algorithm that considers every possible aspect he'd need to have per-hitobject data, which is currently not available.
nooblet

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

I guess remote control with dt will be the next big thing to grind, seems many people already are trying to get good scores at it

Though that's just because it's an X difficulty.. being done with DT... I think if any other X were able to be fc with DT similar thing would happen.
..im just assuming the new star system is directly related to ppv2
Getting combo and decent accuracy on OD 10+ fullscreen jumps doesn't sound like something many people would bother grinding. Remote Control already requires a bit of luck (or a ton of skill if you can do it consistently) to FC without DT.

TheVileOne wrote:

I just wanted to throw out this idea I've been thinking of. I've been worrying about losing pp when I play a song with mods because I get more 100s. Perhaps we should be allowed to choose whether we want to submit a ranked score if it rewards less pp than our current personal best. It would certainly alleviate my concerns about replacing a SS with something not a SS but with mods.
The idea has been suggested before. Not sure if there has been feedback, but it sure would be nice to compare how much difference combo/accuracy would make xD.
-Chronopolis-

mcdoomfrag wrote:

-Chronopolis- wrote:

Low spacing with higher bpm--> Aim-Algorithm sees as being easier, because the average cursor speed is lower.
220bpm single tap --> Speed-Algorithm sees this as being easier, because 220 bpm 1/2 is nowhere near 172 1/4.

Tom94 wrote:

Another reason at least for some of these maps to be underrated is, that they feature quick single passages with low spacing which gets underrated in the current algorithm. Couldn't really find a way to fix that without completely breaking spaced streams yet.
Here's my proposal. It involves trying to treat streams and singles separately. I'm aware of the general points of the current pp system, but obviously I may be ignorant of lots of things.

Stress rating of pattern as calculated as a stream:
Speed stress calculation: Stream bpm and length contribute. If average mouse velocity is high (spaced streams), that also contributes to speed.
Aim stress: Average cursor speed. The exact ratio of average_cursor_speed_stream: speed_stress_stream can be different than average_cursor_speed_singles: speed_stress_singles.
Turns add to this based on how fast they change in degrees and the average cursor speed. Change in spacing between stream-distanced spaced notes can also add difficulty.

Singles:
Aim: Primarily based off of average cursor velocity.
Seperate idea: make change in spacing add somewhat to aim difficulty:
Effective distance from note to next note = distance from note to next note + 0.5*difference in spacing from this note to the last note.
Speed stress calculation: Chain length and bpm contribute. Single bpm contributes much more from 200>280-300 1/2 notes than it currently does in pp (which doesn't discriminate between singles and streams for speed calculation).


Very high speed singles calculation (280-300+):
At this point virtually everybody is alternating, so one can take that into consideration when constructing an algorithm. I don't know what the relative difficulties:
Aim: The same as current.
Speed stress calculation: For a base line, the speed difficulty at the boundary from 279 to 280 should be continuous. The bpm contribution to stress probably should go up slower (because aiming and mouse speed become the limiting factors to my knowledge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPlCPRMM2g8).


Judging whether something is singles or stream:
If notes are farther than X distance apart AND have have an average change in angle greater than Y from note to note:
-If <280 bpm: treat as singles
-If >280 bpm: treat as very high speed singles (which tries to estimate difficulty based on assumed alternation.)
Otherwise:
-treat as streams
pielak213
­
Soulg
are sliders still undervalued? http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1440488 got 0 pp for this even thought it was by far the hardest FC i have. yeah the accuracy is low... but still
-Chronopolis-

Soulg wrote:

are sliders still undervalued? http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1440488 got 0 pp for this even thought it was by far the hardest FC i have. yeah the accuracy is low... but still
Sliders are ignored in accuracy calculations so your acc was like maybe 93% which does hurt a lot. Also as mcdoomfrag pointed out, fast singles that aren't far spaced are underrated for pp. The score was worth 162pp AFAIK on your profile.
mcdoomfrag

Soulg wrote:

are sliders still undervalued? http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1440488 got 0 pp for this even thought it was by far the hardest FC i have. yeah the accuracy is low... but still

Tom94 wrote:

The reason is, that the current way sliders are dealt with is very generous in terms of the slider's favor. Currently there is no measure as how hard it is to actually follow a slider. The minimum distance you have to move to complete the slider is added up to the jump to the next hitobject, but that's it atm. This "minimum distance" is required to not give fast repeatsliders, or even worse: slider-streams, ridiculous pp amounts.
Zare

Priti wrote:

At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
I'd like this to get some consideration
Ekaru

Zare wrote:

Priti wrote:

At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
I'd like this to get some consideration
The "Easy" difficulties I looked at out of those were actually Normals. I don't really think this is a big deal because of that.
Zare

Ekaru wrote:

The "Easy" difficulties I looked at out of those were actually Normals. I don't really think this is a big deal because of that.
They're not Normals wtf. Most of these use 1/1 at MOST, Normals usually have a fair amount of 1/2 to get them players used to playing these, in an attempt to prepare them for Hards
miroslavklose
Sorry if this has been asked or if its a dumb questions, but what is the pp value stated on your top performance. Is it the amount of pp the song is worth and then your percentage is the amount you play gets? because for example on the song souzou forest it says 39 pp 26% on my friends, his says 102pp 9%. I know his play is much better than mines, but i'm still wondering what exactly do teh pp value and the percentage mean, and if the pp on top is already with the calculated percentage.
mcdoomfrag

miroslavklose wrote:

Sorry if this has been asked or if its a dumb questions, but what is the pp value stated on your top performance. Is it the amount of pp the song is worth and then your percentage is the amount you play gets? because for example on the song souzou forest it says 39 pp 26% on my friends, his says 102pp 9%. I know his play is much better than mines, but i'm still wondering what exactly do teh pp value and the percentage mean, and if the pp on top is already with the calculated percentage.
It works something like this:

Imagine if you and your friend both get the exact same result from the same map. On both your profiles, it will say that the play was worth 100pp (an example), however, how much you actually get from the map depends on how good the play was relative to your other scores. So, if the play was your best performance to date, you will get 100% from that 100pp (and consequentially, you will gain slightly less pp from all your other previous scores), but if for your friend this was easy compared to his other performances, he will get a much lower percentage of that 100pp.
rexcannon
So this game means to tell me that my best performance ever was on the Jun.A map?



In reality it's not even close to my best.

EDIT I got 99.7% on bloody night...This isn't right.
jasian

rexcannon_iii wrote:

So this game means to tell me that my best performance ever was on the Jun.A map?


In reality it's not even close to my best.

EDIT I got 99.7% on bloody night...This isn't right.
On Osutp The refrain song has 4 more levels of speed and 2 more levels of aim than Bloody Night, which means it has overall level 41 vs 38. Not sure how much this means in terms of pp but it seems even if you get close to FC on Bloody Night the overall higher difficulty of The Refrain has given you more pp.
rexcannon
But the map bloody night is much more difficult than refrain.


Actually every map on that list is harder than refrain.
pielak213
­
Zare
about Bloody Night vs Refrain. They're very similar in mapping (barely any hard jumps, streams at 9 circles maximum), but refrain is faster and has higher OD, so naturally it's considered harder by the system
rexcannon
Then the system is flawed. They aren't even close to similar, refrain is a breeze in comparison.
silmarilen

rexcannon_iii wrote:

I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.
fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.
Saeris
Hey everyone,
what could be the reason that, even if I improve my ranking on a beat map - my global ranking goes lower?
Just played http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125785 on Normal and got a ranked around 3000 because I missed one note close to the end my global ranking was around #53,359. So I replayed the song with 2x time and got ranked at 893 and ended up with a global ranking of #53,361 - which doesn't make really sense too me, can anyone enlighten me? :shock:
PlasticSmoothie
While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.
Zare

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.
Correct.

The score didn't give any pp because it's weighted st 0%. That's because you have scores that are rated much harder than this one, so all this score did for you was, as PlasticSmoothie said, updating your pp. Other players have passed you before and thus your rank was lowered. (You're still in a range where you need very few pp for huge ranking changes, so it's not uncommon for a fair amount of people to surpass you in a relatively short amount of time.)
Saeris

Zare wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

While you were playing that map, other people passed you in rankings. It only updates when you set scores.
I don't think you got any pp for that score, so all it did for you was to update your rank.
Correct.

The score didn't give any pp because it's weighted st 0%. That's because you have scores that are rated much harder than this one, so all this score did for you was, as PlasticSmoothie said, updating your pp. Other players have passed you before and thus your rank was lowered. (You're still in a range where you need very few pp for huge ranking changes, so it's not uncommon for a fair amount of people to surpass you in a relatively short amount of time.)
Thanks for clarification :)
rexcannon

silmarilen wrote:

rexcannon_iii wrote:

I think then the system is flawed. I think they aren't even close to similar, I think refrain is a breeze in comparison.
fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.


This is a feedback thread, too often do I see this answer though. I understand difficulty can be subjective but in this case the maps are flat out different in their difficulty to the point it should be obvious so I'm providing feedback according to this and so are the other users that get hit with this answer.



That eliminates the point of a feedback thread.
silmarilen

rexcannon_iii wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

fix'd
everybody has different strengths and weaknessess, just because you found a score easier to set doesnt mean everybody else finds the same.


This is a feedback thread, too often do I see this answer though. I understand difficulty can be subjective but in this case the maps are flat out different in their difficulty to the point it should be obvious so I'm providing feedback according to this and so are the other users that get hit with this answer.



That eliminates the point of a feedback thread.
i played both the maps and i agree that bloody night is more difficult on a technical level, but it is lower bpm and the od is lower so it makes sense that it may give less pp
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