Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

posted
Total Posts
2,750
show more
Zitan
11 posts
Joined April 2013
Zitan

-Scylla- wrote:

snosey wrote:

i never said i was good you are the one who is assuming lol
He was answering your question, not assuming anything about you. You were the one assuming he was assuming.

snosey wrote:

i just said it would be hard and like you said rrtyui did amazing ranks but he will need to continue doing dthd more maps that most people do hrhd but of course he also has maps that are hell hard to fc without mods
It is hard. If it was easy, it wouldn't be impressive to be the #1. The goal is to make it hard, so that the top player deserves their position. I don't see what's bad about this.
i interpreted he/her answer wrong thank you for clarifying me

Draxuss wrote:

snosey wrote:

So for us to get pp we need to get a score that is higher then the 104 top scores but doing that it will make the top players win less and less because its not every day maps really hard are made
They are supposed to win less for playing maps that are not up to their standard. Did you even bother reading what you just wrote? They get such small amounts of pp for those maps because they are capable of doing much harder ones. That's how the system is supposed to work. They're not playing to get pp for playing maps they can do without even breaking a sweat. They, like everyone else, are supposed to improve to go further in pp.
"
what you just said was what i wrote just without the "without even breaking a sweat" they will have to do harder maps but after some time the maps that don't give much pp are still really hard this is what i wanted to say but forget it let time pass by and see were this system will go have fun playing :D
pop102
15 posts
Joined April 2013
pop102
Wait so, how do the percentages work?
Does it work like if you have scores worth...

1st rank 100pp - 100% = 100pp
2nd rank100pp - 95% = 95pp

Totaling up to a total of 195pp with just 2 scores?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

pop102 wrote:

Wait so, how do the percentages work?
Does it work like if you have scores worth...

1st rank 100pp - 100% = 100pp
2nd rank100pp - 95% = 95pp

Totaling up to a total of 195pp with just 2 scores?
That's how I'm assuming it works, and that's what makes the most sense. I counted all my scores with >0% weighting, and came down to 104 weighted scores. I wonder if this is the same for everyone, or if that varies as well.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

pop102 wrote:

Wait so, how do the percentages work?
Does it work like if you have scores worth...

1st rank 100pp - 100% = 100pp
2nd rank100pp - 95% = 95pp

Totaling up to a total of 195pp with just 2 scores?
Yes.
In that case, if all your scores are worth 100 raw pp (and assuming you got many of them), then your total pp would be about 2000pp, and you won't ever be able to get more than 2000pp total unless you get scores that are worth over 100 raw pp.

-Scylla- wrote:

That's how I'm assuming it works, and that's what makes the most sense. I counted all my scores with >0% weighting, and came down to 104 weighted scores. I wonder if this is the same for everyone, or if that varies as well.
The 104th score should have a weighting of 0.482231% (it shows as 0% because the value is rounded).
Last edited by Full Tablet , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne

Full Tablet wrote:

pop102 wrote:

Wait so, how do the percentages work?
Does it work like if you have scores worth...

1st rank 100pp - 100% = 100pp
2nd rank100pp - 95% = 95pp

Totaling up to a total of 195pp with just 2 scores?
Yes.
In that case, if all your scores are worth 100 raw pp (and assuming you got many of them), then your total pp would be about 2000pp, and you won't ever be able to get more than 2000pp total unless you get scores that are worth over 100 raw pp.
There's no bottom limit to the formula. Theoretically you could get an unlimited amount of 100pp scores and each score would add something to your pp. Only after awhile the pp given is so small that it could take 100s of performances to get a single pp from it.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
The function does in fact converge, so you'll never be able to surpass 2000pp unless you get at least one score with a pp value of 101 or better (Assuming the current decay value of 0.95)
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

TheVileOne wrote:

There's no bottom limit to the formula. Theoretically you could get an unlimited amount of 100pp scores and each score would add something to your pp. Only after awhile the pp given is so small that it could take 100s of performances to get a single pp from it.
The thing is, not even with an infinite amount of 100 raw pp scores your total pp will past over 2000.
Theoretically:
10 100pp scores: 862.4 total pp.
100 100pp scores: 1988.75 total pp.
1,000 100pp scores: 2000 - 10^(-19) total pp.
100,000 100pp scores: 2000 - 4.36*10^(-2225) total pp.
The values in practice could be different because of rounding errors with floating-point calculations, but even then the errors would be incredibly small.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Full Tablet wrote:

-Scylla- wrote:

That's how I'm assuming it works, and that's what makes the most sense. I counted all my scores with >0% weighting, and came down to 104 weighted scores. I wonder if this is the same for everyone, or if that varies as well.
The 104th score should have a weighting of 0.482231% (it shows as 0% because the value is rounded).
Then I undercounted, since I started counting at 1%. Would it be safe to assume that 110 scores are counted, or would this still vary per player?
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

-Scylla- wrote:

Then I undercounted, since I started counting at 1%. Would it be safe to assume that 110 scores are counted, or would this still vary per player?
In theory, all scores are counted.
For performance reasons, there could be a cut-off rank (since after so many ranks, each score adds a meaningless amount to the total).
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
In case you guys are interested in the maths behind all of this (for example why it's impossible to break certain pp barriers), it's called a "geometric series". You can find lots of online resources with information on the topic.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne

Full Tablet wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

There's no bottom limit to the formula. Theoretically you could get an unlimited amount of 100pp scores and each score would add something to your pp. Only after awhile the pp given is so small that it could take 100s of performances to get a single pp from it.
The thing is, not even with an infinite amount of 100 raw pp scores your total pp will past over 2000.
Theoretically:
10 100pp scores: 862.4 total pp.
100 100pp scores: 1988.75 total pp.
1,000 100pp scores: 2000 - 10^(-19) total pp.
100,000 100pp scores: 2000 - 4.36*10^(-2225) total pp.
The values in practice could be different because of rounding errors with floating-point calculations, but even then the errors would be incredibly small.
Well I guess that it could approach any value without ever reaching it. What makes you say that value is 2000 and not some other number?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Geometric series have easily calculatable limits, and it's 20 for 0.95.
100pp*20 = 2000pp limit

/E: To be more specific, the limit is 1/(1-x), with x being 0.95 here
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Maths...

I used to be good at it. >.>
NotThat
23 posts
Joined June 2013
NotThat
Would it be possible to sort the 'First Place Ranks' by PP as well? Browsing the user page of the likes of WWW is quite disorganized.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

NotThat wrote:

Would it be possible to sort the 'First Place Ranks' by PP as well? Browsing the user page of the likes of WWW is quite disorganized.
Why would this even be necessary?
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

-Scylla- wrote:

NotThat wrote:

Would it be possible to sort the 'First Place Ranks' by PP as well? Browsing the user page of the likes of WWW is quite disorganized.
Why would this even be necessary?
I also prefer it as "recent" as it is currently.

What could be done is to add a sort option just for the first place ranks, but top performances should already cover that... so I don't see a point either.
NotThat
23 posts
Joined June 2013
NotThat
The point is when viewing his top PP ranks, you have to click 'show me more' a bunch of times. After each time fastest way to get to the 'show me more' button again is to scroll to the bottom of the page. What ends up happening is you accidentally click the 'show me more' of the first place list instead of the overall plays list. That's fine and dandy because if you're viewing his profile for top plays there's a good chance you came there to search his first place play of some map to see how much PP it gave him, which means you can find it on his 'first ranks' list just as well. If the list is unsorted and he has many first place plays, you gonna have a mess real fast.

Perhaps there's another way to go about this. What I'm after is I'm curious how much PP a map awards with 100% on certain mods. This will help me figure out where to focus my efforts. If my play on map A had 98% accuracy and it gave me 150PP, and my play on map B had 96% and it gave me 143PP, which map has more potential for me for improvement?

I assume there's a direct correlation between that and the PPv2 'level' of the map with said mods selected. This gets me thinking. What is the purpose of using a PPv2 'level' to designate map difficulty? Wouldn't it be just as possible and more relatable to use 'max PP' as a measuring stick?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

NotThat wrote:

The point is when viewing his top PP ranks, you have to click 'show me more' a bunch of times. After each time fastest way to get to the 'show me more' button again is to scroll to the bottom of the page. What ends up happening is you accidentally click the 'show me more' of the first place list instead of the overall plays list. That's fine and dandy because if you're viewing his profile for top plays there's a good chance you came there to search his first place play of some map to see how much PP it gave him, which means you can find it on his 'first ranks' list just as well. If the list is unsorted and he has many first place plays, you gonna have a mess real fast.

Perhaps there's another way to go about this. What I'm after is I'm curious how much PP a map awards with 100% on certain mods. This will help me figure out where to focus my efforts. If my play on map A had 98% accuracy and it gave me 150PP, and my play on map B had 96% and it gave me 143PP, which map has more potential for me for improvement?

I assume there's a direct correlation between that and the PPv2 'level' of the map with said mods selected. This gets me thinking. What is the purpose of using a PPv2 'level' to designate map difficulty? Wouldn't it be just as possible and more relatable to use 'max PP' as a measuring stick?
Mind elaborating what you mean by 'max PP'? Where would you derive them from if not from beatmap difficulty?
NotThat
23 posts
Joined June 2013
NotThat
The PP score awarded for SS'ing the map. I assume that's basically what the 'Level' number from osu!tp website is with some conversion, except the maximum PP value obtainable from a playthrough of a map is a more relatable number to players. It would be nice to know that I got 145PP out of 163PP obtainable on a map with no mods, etc.
Avena
2,158 posts
Joined December 2012
Avena
At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
Something to keep in mind is that a lot of "Easy" difficulties are actually Normals, though.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

NotThat wrote:

The PP score awarded for SS'ing the map. I assume that's basically what the 'Level' number from osu!tp website is with some conversion, except the maximum PP value obtainable from a playthrough of a map is a more relatable number to players. It would be nice to know that I got 145PP out of 163PP obtainable on a map with no mods, etc.
That couldn't possibly take mods into consideration which again would make it not quite right, because mods have different effects depending on the beatmap.
But it's a nice idea. It'd make for a very good alternative measure, but I doubt the big change would be worth the benefits.
mcdoomfrag
94 posts
Joined June 2013
mcdoomfrag

Tom94 wrote:

NotThat wrote:

The PP score awarded for SS'ing the map. I assume that's basically what the 'Level' number from osu!tp website is with some conversion, except the maximum PP value obtainable from a playthrough of a map is a more relatable number to players. It would be nice to know that I got 145PP out of 163PP obtainable on a map with no mods, etc.
That couldn't possibly take mods into consideration which again would make it not quite right, because mods have different effects depending on the beatmap.
But it's a nice idea. It'd make for a very good alternative measure, but I doubt the big change would be worth the benefits.
Why not just make the top ranks go something like : "193pp/230pp", where the latter is the max possible pp gained with the mod being used?

Or maybe you could just make it so that information available elsewhere, as to not clutter the top ranks, but I agree that it would be interesting to know what the max pp gained from a song is. Maybe some kind of pp calculator to test different scenarios without having to play the maps ourselves? For example you select a beatmap and input all variables into the result yourself (300s/100s/50s etc....), then it shows you how much pp you would gain?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

mcdoomfrag wrote:

Why not just make the top ranks go something like : "193pp/230pp", where the latter is the max possible pp gained with the mod being used?

Or maybe you could just make it so that information available elsewhere, as to not clutter the top ranks, but I agree that it would be interesting to know what the max pp gained from a song is. Maybe some kind of pp calculator to test different scenarios without having to play the maps ourselves? For example you select a beatmap and input all variables into the result yourself (300s/100s/50s etc....), then it shows you how much pp you would gain?
I plan on making all the underlying formulas open in the wiki, so anyone will be free to implement his own pp calculator. I'm not sure if or how that would fit into the game or the website, though. I'd say it'd be better as a 3rd party program.

Showing the maximum possible pp for a given mod combination sounds juicy. It likely won't happen unless the pp formulas get implemented into the client, though. Online adding a mod selection or even worse: a display for each possible mod combination would be far too much clutter in the current state.

Keep in mind that those limitations can always change, so I wouldn't rule it out completely. I like the idea. :)
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
So new scores always replace old ones even if the pp value is the same? I had a 51 pp play as my #1 play for the longest time, but it was just passed [and consequently weighted less] by an equal pp play. Is it because the more recent one has higher accuracy? Is it because it gives a higher amount of pp but in decimals? Or do newer but equal pp plays always replace older ones?

edit: could it also be because of DT?
Pold
20 posts
Joined May 2013
Pold
Now that we can see the PP gain for each song, I can't help it but think that jumps or some other thing is being overrated, CONTROL REMOTE is overrated, I was ok with that score being rrtyui's top performance, even being www's or dragonhuman's best, but the difference is way too much, what I mean is... 542pp ?? (rrtyui's), seriously? then, his second best is 454pp. I KNOW that Control Remote on DT is just freaking hard, and just a few can do something like that, but I still feel like something is wrong there...
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

pold10 wrote:

Control Remote
Mind linking such a map? Never heard of Control Remote!
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
it definitely overrates jumps hence why remote control is harder than just about every 0108 map according to it
Oskur
40 posts
Joined September 2012
Oskur

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

pold10 wrote:

Control Remote
Mind linking such a map? Never heard of Control Remote!
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53857
hehe
1,959 posts
Joined November 2012
hehe
not overrated at all. those jumps with DT are bloody difficult.
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

TMoI wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53857
Oh but that's Remote Control!!! Not Control Remote!!!

Haha.

Yeah those jumps on DT are a whole new thing, especially with that OD.
Oskur
40 posts
Joined September 2012
Oskur
Yeah, as it is now, it's OD9 AR9 with jumps that stretch across the screen at a decent BPM and normal CS.

So I'd assume it'd be worth some.
Pold
20 posts
Joined May 2013
Pold

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

pold10 wrote:

Control Remote
Mind linking such a map? Never heard of Control Remote!
Lol, my bad... xD

TMoI wrote:

Yeah, as it is now, it's OD9 AR9 with jumps that stretch across the screen at a decent BPM and normal CS.

So I'd assume it'd be worth some.
Indeed it's not easy at all, can't deny that, but I still feel like it's a little too much.
-ArmoredTitan-
2 posts
Joined October 2013
-ArmoredTitan-
Not sure if this counts as a suggestion or a feature request, but it would be nice to have a separate sub-ranking and/or best performance list for selected mods :)

For example, one would be able to choose a combination of mods (e.g. HDFL only) so that only scores using those mods will contribute to pp. That way we can compete with people who use specific mod combinations, as well as see where we ourselves are positioned.

An alternative for the second feature (best performance) would be to display the mods used to achieve that score next to the pp value. That way we can distinguish between HDDT and HDHR scores (because as of now, we'll never know what mods a player used to get that C in his best performance).
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
It's a known issue, that jumps scale too much in the very high end. Since this only concerns a veeeery small amount of scores (e.g. the ones that come close to FCing remote control with DT) it doesn't have a high priority, though.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan

Priti wrote:

At the moment, it seems like N is more common for Easy diffs than the intended E, I'd suggest to put the minimal value for an N a bit higher.
Examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6257 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41379 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/87630 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/155457 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81557 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/102307 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/152786 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/119359 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/134220 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150242 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/150784 And many more.
Thats a nice idea, though actually most normals are easy anyway
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Tom94 wrote:

It's a known issue, that jumps scale too much in the very high end. Since this only concerns a veeeery small amount of scores (e.g. the ones that come close to FCing remote control with DT) it doesn't have a high priority, though.
I guess remote control with dt will be the next big thing to grind, seems many people already are trying to get good scores at it

Though that's just because it's an X difficulty.. being done with DT... I think if any other X were able to be fc with DT similar thing would happen.
..im just assuming the new star system is directly related to ppv2
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I just wanted to throw out this idea I've been thinking of. I've been worrying about losing pp when I play a song with mods because I get more 100s. Perhaps we should be allowed to choose whether we want to submit a ranked score if it rewards less pp than our current personal best. It would certainly alleviate my concerns about replacing a SS with something not a SS but with mods.
Oskur
40 posts
Joined September 2012
Oskur
Also, how much does not FCing due to 100s on sliders hurt you? (i.e. x1000 v x999 due to getting a 100 on a slider)

EDIT: *hurt pp gain
Last edited by Oskur , edited 1 time in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

TMoI wrote:

Also, how much does not FCing due to 100s on sliders hurt you? (i.e. x1000 v x999 due to getting a 100 on a slider)
it usually kills me
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
865 / 2,750