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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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HoboEater

nooblet wrote:

StratoPulse wrote:

This system is probably more accurate, and i dont think there's any arguing that. BUt the problem is that it isnt rewarding AT ALL. Full Combo'ing things isnt particularly rewarding if i dont like the song, which seem to be the only ones worth anything. Streams are also worth next to no pp, even for giant combos or full combos. Double time is vastly over-weighted, and top 50'ing hards, much harder to do than full combo'ing insanes with no mod, are worth nothing. The system doesnt make me want to play, it makes me grind rather than enjoy myself while improving rank.
You only feel this way because you're caring too much about what other people do. Checking the people around my rank, I find most of them play DT, but I probably have a grand total of... 1 map that has a DT high score? Don't let what others do affect you. Find maps with higher difficulty and do them with good accuracy, you're not getting any less pp than they are unless they DT the maps you're doing, you can just get them through other aspects like aim and accuracy.

Also, from my understanding, DT is actually not overweighted because it's calculated the exact same way a map made at 1.5x of its speed would be (someone confirm or correct?). It does, however, ruin songs :( .

Streams are worth PP if it's actually streamy and has high bpm. Having a few 7-note or 15-note streams in a beatmap is pretty much expected nowadays, so you can't really give pp for a few of those. Low bpm streams aren't be worth anything. Just look at the "speed" value on osutp, streamy maps at high bpm like mytho, unlimitation, calamity fortune, etc. have a very high speed value.
From my experience, DT can be slightly overweighted since some maps are shorter with easier patterns compared to harder maps, but they should be calculated the same way (Tom?).

My example of DT and streams being overweighted is insane DT on http://osu.ppy.sh/b/105265?m=0
Topic Starter
Tom94

nooblet wrote:

StratoPulse wrote:

[...]
Also, from my understanding, DT is actually not overweighted because it's calculated the exact same way a map made at 1.5x of its speed would be (someone confirm or correct?). [...]
I confirm. Same goes for HalfTime, HardRock and Easy.
The only mods giving some arbitrary bonus are Hidden and FlashLight.

Also, FlashLight is giving a 50% aim bonus since the last update (you can find it in the changelog somewhere, it's been a week or two), not a 36% one anymore. I do also agree with making FlashLight scale with MaxCombo, it does make a lot of sense. You can expect that to be the case in the near future. ;)
Totoki
Speaking of max combo, i have an issue about the weighing of certain plays corresponding to their combos.

For example: http://osutp.net/scores?bid=142954 (using tp scores to give a rough idea)
In a map like Senketsu no Chikai where there are jumps throughout the song, i can't help but feel misses should be more penalized than combo.
In the scores: 1.1k combo w/ 5 miss and 98% acc is weighted higher than 700combo w/ 1 miss and 99% acc
in my opinion missing once near the middle with almost perfect acc is a far better play than managing to combo most of the map with worse acc and far more misses.

The above is just my personal evaluation but i would like you hear your opinion on this matter Tom, thanks~ :)
Aqo
usually misses on maps like that when you're actually able to get a low miss count overall mean a loss of concentration and not a lack of aim skill, the person who had 1 miss was just more lucky to get less penalized for his momentary loss of concentration compared to the person who had 5 miss all at once. The second person was able to stay concentrated for longer overall, and apply a decent aim consistency, so that's why his score earns more in the end.
-Chisana te-
just a question, I have lost 10 pp, why ??
Yano

hugola22 wrote:

just a question, I have lost 10 pp, why ??
Maybe better Score in a Map but worse Accuary

One of the most reasons why ppl lose pp

---------------

-Chisana te-
yes but 10 is so much !
Novixion

Ultrayano wrote:

They need to really update osutp.net
A bunch of deleted/hidden scores from obvious cheaters still have not been removed.
buny
they don't get removed until the user gets banned
You can actually find a LOT of hidden scores on certain maps, because apparently it's really hard to tell if a big black DT score is legit or not.
Dalvoid
I still feel that osu! now has a pretty confusing scoring system. I mean, in a rhythm game what's the aim? Usually to get the highest score right? Well quite often now we get PENALIZED for getting better scores ie because of lower accuracy etc.

Now aside from the fact that that is extremely unintuitive for users (see: this thread "why did i lose x pp"), the real problem is the fact that scores are sorted not by their worth, but by their score, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE RANKED SYSTEM IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

I really feel that scores should be sorted by either their pp worth, or that we should be able to choose which score on a song to submit, or that we have the ability to delete a score. There are lots of options there that all solve this problem, I'm just wondering if Tom/peppy also consider this to be a problem or aren't fazed by it.
Yano

Dalvoid wrote:

I still feel that osu! now has a pretty confusing scoring system. I mean, in a rhythm game what's the aim? Usually to get the highest score right? Well quite often now we get PENALIZED for getting better scores ie because of lower accuracy etc.

Now aside from the fact that that is extremely unintuitive for users (see: this thread "why did i lose x pp"), the real problem is the fact that scores are sorted not by their worth, but by their score, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE RANKED SYSTEM IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

I really feel that scores should be sorted by either their pp worth, or that we should be able to choose which score on a song to submit, or that we have the ability to delete a score. There are lots of options there that all solve this problem, I'm just wondering if Tom/peppy also consider this to be a problem or aren't fazed by it.
Just wait a little bit more :) Tom is still working on the System but first he want implement the System also in all the other Modes
Icyteru
The aim isn't to get score, otherwise, uan/andrea/geckogates best players in world.
Yano

[AirCoN] wrote:

The aim isn't to get score, otherwise, uan/andrea/geckogates best players in world.
Yeah so true

If ppl want a Score Ranking <-
Dalvoid
Ok, I kinda knew this would happen with all the forum knights skimming posts, BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING MY POINT.

The point is that best score =/= best play, AS YOU SAID. However osu! is submitting scores as if best score = best play. The problem is that the goal of the game has become convoluted, and now we can become 'stuck' with a "high score" which is actually negatively impacting our ranking.

tl;dr if you feel like trying again: the problem is the submission system and I am not making the ridiculous assertion that score should be the defining factor of osu!'s ranked play.
Horolynn

Dalvoid wrote:

Ok, I kinda knew this would happen with all the forum knights skimming posts, BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING MY POINT.

The point is that best score =/= best play, AS YOU SAID. However osu! is submitting scores as if best score = best play. The problem is that the goal of the game has become convoluted, and now we can become 'stuck' with a "high score" which is actually negatively impacting our ranking.

tl;dr if you feel like trying again: the problem is the submission system and I am not making the ridiculous assertion that score should be the defining factor of osu!'s ranked play.
If you actually paid any attention to this topic, Tom has stated MULTIPLE times that it is not possible to sort plays by their performance. Sorting by score is the only possible way for now, and there is no information on when, if at all, it is gonna change.
Aqo
just FC maps or don't expect to get anything from plays where you didn't FC. simple.
dennischan
One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation
Stoneybeans

dennischan wrote:

One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation
the system cares more about what maps(+mod/s) you can play well than what you can just mash and pass like that
RaneFire
You don't even need accuracy for mad machine, you just need speed. I wouldn't call it a "highest tier" map since the only difficult part about it is that it has 270 BPM 1/4 streams, but they are not very long (not bad for stamina) and have multiple hold-sliders in between them. It's OD7, which is lenient for 270 BPM, you could be out of time (slower), even double-tapping, and still get 300's.

Afaik Tom's algorithm uses strain values, so the number of hold sliders in between these streams reduces that value and there are many slow parts too, which inflates your accuracy for a 270 BPM map, mainly due to half the map being sliders, giving you most of your combo. Sliders are ignored for accuracy calculation, so you would need a high accuracy score to get any pp. Combo matters due to these fast repeating sliders and the combo in the screenies is too low.
nooblet

dennischan wrote:

One of my friends (mike6649) dosen't get any pp at all. He passed Mad Machine and Sonata and he didn't get any pp.
I'm not very sure what's happening, as those are the highest tier maps in this game, and there's no reward for beating them!?
He's only at #32,482, and people at that rank usually fail miserably at these top tier maps.
I think that about people in #10000 or above are the only people able to pass those maps, as in MP, I've seen some #10000 that can't pass mad machine.
I think there must be something wrong with this system if you don't get pp from high tier plays, so I think I need a bit of explanation
PP rewards you for good performances, passing =/= a good performance. You'll get PP from getting 99% on an easier map/diff. You can tell from the tp site that accuracy is pretty much nill once you hit 90%. Low accuracy and lack of combo also means no points in accuracy and aim.
VIDgamefrk9
I do find it rather odd that I get pp in other modes even though I get LESS THAN 90% accuracy. I think you are on to something about the lack of combo, as I do OK with combo but I tend to drop it quite easily as I don't play often enough to build my stamina up on both hands. I think the pp system is fine, as you do get some for improving your score on a map that you have already played I do, however, find it rather odd that only the highest difficulty counts on a beatmap if you have played multiple diffs.
Luna

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

I do find it rather odd that I get pp in other modes even though I get LESS THAN 90% accuracy.
The pp system for special modes is not yet functional, please just ignore pp in those modes until it's implemented (soon-ish hopefully).
Symqn
I just played on new ranked map by chance got rank 34 even if i didn't FC it and i lost 50 pp why would i lose pp i get if map has low plays even if you get high rank you dont get alot pp but losing it those 50 pp were hard to get since iam improving now so i rank up slowly
Multtari
Most likely some changes (or issues?) with calculation, 100 pp disappeared in thin air.
zitekyo
everyone will lose pp dont be afraid..

after a overall rank update, youi get probablyy your old rank.
Topic Starter
Tom94
pp just got switched to use calculations of the soon-to-come star rating system. Small changes in pp are to be expected. :P
Camnel
Just lost 136pp LULZ
Yano

Tom94 wrote:

pp just got switched to use calculations of the soon-to-come star rating system. Small changes in pp are to be expected. :P
Saw it xD
I was shocked
Lost 16pp after better Score and better Accuary
But wayne I'm to bad to say i don't deserve this rank
DeViezeMan
Oh man, how annoying. The amount of pp i lost was exactly the amount of pp i gained by getting 2 good scores. For a moment i was afraid they'd be deleted because of something ridiculous like hacking or something.

Is it possible to make a notice about a change in calculations? Because of this i went from near #1200 to near #1300, which is quite a change for me. Especially if someone happens to be trying to get some great scores, communication will be appreciates, i feel. Or is too much hassle compared to the amount of changes made or magnitude of changes?
Felipe Massa
lose 20pp TAT
Topic Starter
Tom94
Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some. :P
Camnel

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some. :P
Think im not coming back from this one, i mean, 136pp FUCK MY LIFE
Yano

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some. :P
Will the Rank only update if the User rank a Map ? Or will it update in the next 48H
Topic Starter
Tom94

Ultrayano wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Other people will lose pp, too, so you won't lose many ranks in the long run. You might even gain some. :P
Will the Rank only update if the User rank a Map ? Or will it update in the next 48H
Next few hours. Your best performance list will take a few days, though.
GoldenWolf

Camnel wrote:

Think im not coming back from this one, i mean, 136pp FUCK MY LIFE
But the number of pp doesn't matter, because it's only a number
What matters is your rank, once recalculations are done you can compare your previous rank with your new one and see if you have lost anything or not
DeViezeMan
Thanks, Tom, for the clarification.
TakuMii
There really should be something telling people to ignore the raw pp amount when there are changes to the system (or at least make it display secondary on profiles) so that people don't focus on it so much.

@Tom94: Just curious, how will the new star system work? Will it have an open ceiling, or will it still just be limited to 5 stars?
Kexxon
Is combo/score a big factor in ppv2 if any at all?
buny

Kexxon wrote:

Is combo/score a big factor in ppv2 if any at all?
combo does
Erased_old_1
NERF THE STREAMS! 'nough said
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