this game suddenly got a lot more fun when i turned off mouse acceleration. (no more frustrating overshoots)

The new pp system makes me feel so accomplished for no reason. LOL good jobs

Well, this isn't really feedback and i have no obligations on the new PP update, i'm just wondering because I had PP:5 (yeah I suck) but now i have 118.
How does that work?

kamiyo-sama wrote:

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png

May not be due to tp's implementation, but rather the pp side of things. We'll have to wait for the wiki and see, but I'm guessing that there's still mod-weightings. Your HD,DT score is probably higher because there are less DT's in general on "Rainbow after snow" than there are on "Magic Girl". Although "Magic Girl" is a way more popular and contested map, I wonder how much of this is a factor.

On another note:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

Almost wrote:

Mathsma wrote:

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105

The bonus to accuracy that HD gives is only a few percent. Unless the map gives a lot of accuracy tp already, you won't see any difference and even if it gives a lot of acc tp the difference is going to be like 2tp. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

accuracy players suffer a lot from the new system

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

pls

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

petition pls

After seeing a few score examples on HD in the last posts I definitely feel like the accuracy bonus is way too small. On most maps the difference between a no HD and a HD score with the same Acc value is less than 0.5%.

thelewa wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

not a lot more, but it should be weighed a bit more to at least be noticeable for less skilled players

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

Somehow some good scores (on rather difficult maps) I did yesterday are simply not showing up in my history. I'm not sure whether or not they are simply not showing up but are still counted or if those scores did actually disappear.

RaneFire wrote:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

The difficulty calculations are far from perfect, and they will continue to get tweaked in the future. Keep in mind, that a lot of this is very subjective, though, and you might find maps easier, that others find harder. Gotta agree with you on most of the examples, that you called, though.

electrolytes wrote:

It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.

I'm not exactly sure how fair it'd be to further increase the map-length bonuses cap. Will consider it for the future.

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)

It is included to a very high degree.

anticlone111 wrote:

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.
2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.
3) Many long maps are worth more than short maps of equivalent difficulty. See chipscape or fallen world. The reason why you see mostly top-pp scores on short maps, is because there exist more short maps. On top of that many players seem to prefer to rank on those, since it's also easier. :p
4) I think it should be common sense, that if the pp algorithm can look at sub-top50 scores, then other things can do, too.
5) Planned, but it might take a while to arrive. This has a lower priority than getting the other gamemodes implemented.

Why on earth would this take my rank down by 1, obviously it isn't about accuracy since the accuracy was about 5% above my average and it is a rather difficult map... Is there such a thing implemented now as raking pp down o.0

What probably happened is, you didn't gain pp for your play, so you stayed where you were before. However, in the time it took you to finish the map, a different player surpassed your pp, thus dropping you by a rank.
Finishing the map was not the cause for your rank drop, activity by other players was.

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

anticlone111 wrote:

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Even a bonus for 1st places only would make it easier to get pp on hard maps compared to how it is right now - by a bigger ratio than it would benefit insanes. You can verify the maths if you want, I don't want to dip into specifics.
Regarding your second point - you don't have to worry about it. There won't be more specific answers to that.

anticlone111 wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Giving a pp bonus while taking rank into consideration is just illogical with the score system.
You might have a lower acc but still have a higher score, so you get a pp bonus for being worse. (both are fcs)

..Why would you do that.

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

high rank on maps does not equal "you played this map better than many other players".
high rank on maps equals "players who are good enough to play this map way better than you find it boring and don't bother wasting time on it".

a good ranking system simply rates people high based on random plays they do without forcing people to have to play maps they don't like just to get a higher rank (which is also known as farming)

Aqo wrote:

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

I laughed. That's a good point though. generally I think it's been pretty frustrating to gain a good score on a map that's highly contested and you gained nothing for it because it depended too much on rank. In reverse, I felt pretty bad when I played a map that was barely contested. I've had the feeling that my pp was undeserved. So rank shouldn't correlate with pp at all, I totally agree.

Overall:
I really like the new system. It's always been pretty irritating to see people above me in rank that have only played Easy and Normal maps while I bothered to learn playing Insanes (well ofc it was much more fun). My "Best Performances" are pretty accurate, too. Some of those were rather lucky FC's or high combos I definitely couldn't do every day. While there are some minor points to improve (like difficulty calculating on some maps, but that's what you're gonna take care of), I'm very satisfied.

And by the way, did you recently change that you don't have to get a top score to gain pp? I've recently had a try which resulted in 98% accu whereas my FC try had only about 94-95% and I gained pp and accu incrase even though it was neither an FC nor a top score.

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Kert wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/269963?m=0 - random DT gives more points than
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/96095?m=0 with HR

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/49067?m=0 gives way too much points, cosnsidering it's a lot easier than any of the above

In general I feel that DT gives qute a lot more than it should and HR on really small circles isn't as rewarding

And also FL?
FL is not favoured at all?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18156 - this must be one of my top plays, yet it's nowhere close
(my assumption is results are ordered almost in the same way as in tp)

This

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

Omgforz wrote:

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

I agree but hidden is pretty easy if you train it. Not doubled but something like 0.8 maybe

Ziggo wrote:

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

About the acc value:

RaneFire wrote:

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Illus wrote:

[...] And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

What you experienced was probably connected to another score you made previously. Your online top-score in a particular map is still the only score that counts towards your pp on that map.

make hidden weight like this -> if a score is less 1% of the other score with hidden with will give less pp like this :
no mod 98 > with hidden 97 < worst
or this hr 98 < hr with hd 97,50 < better

tell me what you think of this pls

Illus wrote:

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

sorry i missed a bit of your previous post

but yeah you're correct. it'll only change if peppy added a system that would calculate the amount of pp that a score would gain and sort by that or if we could pick the score that we want to submit online

i like the suggestion someone had where we have the ability to delete completely a score of ours if we chose.

Tom94 wrote:

2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.

I guess what you're saying might be true for high level players, I can't tell. For low level players this might be different, though. Let me give you an example on that.

When I manage to get 98% no mod on a certain map, I will probably get about 96% with HD. With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy. To counter this, HD should maybe give a relative bonus according to the achieved accuracy, instead of a static multiplication bonus. That way high level plays with high accuracy will not be influenced, but HD keeps being viable on lower levels. What do you guys think about that?

Just order the rankings according to the amount of pp obtained instead of score. It would solve the main issues i have with the current pp.

Performance shouldn't be upped with HD when you can't play it anyway, so let the HD players have a reasonable bonus for doing well, not badly. It's just a different way of reading, as opposed to approach circles.

Many players argue that HD is just as easy as nomod once you learn to play it (trap notes aside). So how do you rate skill? The bonus was given to aim, but I still don't know if that's the right place. It seems like a patch-solution.

There is also the problem that some people play a map nomod and move on, setting hundreds of nomod ranks. But you also get people who use HD all the time and do the same. This is almost as bad as Hards vs Insanes, where different people play HD, compared to those who play nomod, and is almost impossible to compare the two other than to say the non-HD players have less skill because they can't play a mod, but by how much? Surely once they learn to play HD, they will be just as good if not better, but they're not interested.

I'm one of these people who never really delved into HD because it's not the challenge I'm looking for. When I mess up, it's not like my rhythm was bad, or my aim was bad, it's because I didn't fucking see the circle there, or saw it a bit late, putting my timing off, and that just annoys me so I don't play it much. I know I can get better at it, but why bother. I'm fine with a few less ranks, but if I learned to play HD really well, what then? I gained no mechanical skills by doing so, I just learned to read it, like AR10 doesn't give any bonus compared to AR9/8, because it's subjective. You just need to learn to read it. It is hard to rate something by it's obfuscation, which is HD and FL (memorisation).

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Uhm, no? This happens even if I can read 100% of the map. It's just that hitting accurately without approach circles is way harder when you are barely able to play a certain OD.

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

Aqo wrote:

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

I was only talking about the OD right there. Anyway, if it's a reading problem, then this would just support my proposal even more. Like Tom said, the current Acc bonus for HD is to compensate reading errors. So on scores with more reading errors the Acc bonus should be higher as well.

RaneFire wrote:

[...]

This is why I don't understand why HR and HD have the same rate score.
And I can said the same for DT and FL.

Mods have to be balanced imo, because they aren't.

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

100% agree. I have absolutely no problem with hd accuracy. Aim is more of a problem