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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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xBeater

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?
I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.
Liiraye

xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?
I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.
Well right now the pp system is under heavy recalculations. I for example (I'm rank 3k~) got pp for getting rank 4k and even rank 12k(!) on a map (miss in the middle with dt)

The combo system should be revamped as well imo. Since ppv2 apparently favors accuracy and speed above all, I don't see the point in using combo as the factor to determine the global rank in a specific map. If someone fc's with hidden and get like rank 400 while I miss in the middle, get rank 6k and only I get pp, the rankings doesn't matter, now do they?

Is this a step to turning mods into individual rankings, Tom? I heard peppy talk about that before.
Could This Be

xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?
I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.
So you consider an S on a hard diff better than an A on an insane diff?
The system calculates difficulties within the beatmap, like big jumps, fast motions, streams and difficult patterns! << These are very common in insane difficulties, in hard or normals difficulties the maps are much much easier, hard diffs almost never have big jumps or streams so I don't see why they should give a lot of ranks?

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane
xBeater

Could This Be wrote:

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane
I would be more impressed by a DT hard score.
But whatever, I don't see a point in farther discussions about this. Guess I just have to take it as it is.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Defacer wrote:

Just a quick question.

Is the system currently real-time?I can only guess it's manually updated for the time being.

Actually since it's my first post in this thread, I am just gonna say that the system so far is doing really well and it's close to the best system osu! can have, thanks for all the work that's been done.I personally think HD scores in general are worth less than they should.Waiting for pattern difficulty calculation too.
The system is real-time in the sense of: When you get a score it directly gives pp.
There has been a little down-time in the system today (which led to Dalvoid's complaint) which has been resolved. In general, if a new score makes a map disappear from your best performance list or doesn't appear there, despite you thinking it should, then give it a day to appear before complaining, please - just to make sure.

Liiraye wrote:

The combo system should be revamped as well imo. Since ppv2 apparently favors accuracy and speed above all, I don't see the point in using combo as the factor to determine the global rank in a specific map. If someone fc's with hidden and get like rank 400 while I miss in the middle, get rank 6k and only I get pp, the rankings doesn't matter, now do they?
Combo is still heavily weighted. Under the circumstances you described you would get far less pp than "someone".
Wishy
xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.
Kinji

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.
LOL, so true, I used to be rank 7k++ and have drop to 10k++.Well, cant brag anymore, but for some reason my tp is still high, 7.3k+ so well, time to brag about my tp then, while climbing back the pp ladder :P
Kinji
By the way, tom, ummm...Is the ppv2 system now final? Or is there still tweaks and stuff?
xBeater

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.
Wow, I didn't expect such a retarded reply.
And I never was someone who bragged about ranks. It's just that kind of inequity I feel. But that might only be my very own opinion.
As well, you seem to miss the point of my original post so keep out of this if you don't have any meaningful comments.
Topic Starter
Tom94

xBeater wrote:

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.
Wow, I didn't expect such a retarded reply.
And I never was someone who bragged about ranks. It's just that kind of inequity I feel. But that might only be my very own opinion.
As well, you seem to miss the point of my original post so keep out of this if you don't have any meaningful comments.
I know it's not quite the same, but as long as you don't provide any examples of scores that are rated wrongly in your opinion, there is not much meaning to your complaint either. I don't understand what the "obvious" reasons are to not mention them, as you stated earlier.

Anyway, since this system is far from final and will likely always keep changing slightly I hope it'll get more satisfying for you in the future. :)
xBeater

Tom94 wrote:

I know it's not quite the same, but as long as you don't provide any examples of scores that are rated wrongly in your opinion, there is not much meaning to your complaint either. I don't understand what the "obvious" reasons are to not mention them, as you stated earlier.
Whatever, doesn't really matter anymore since you guys more or less proved that I was wrong.

Tom94 wrote:

Anyway, since this system is far from final and will likely always keep changing slightly I hope it'll get more satisfying for you in the future. :)
And thanks for your efforts. :3
Wishy
The fact that you don't want to provide specific examples is because you are afraid that some of your "friends" might check out this thread and see how you are whining about something that makes you look inferior compared to them on the ranking system. I don't know if you brag or anything but your problem here is that you feel your e-penis got smaller.
Pastella

Wishy wrote:

Nyzashi...

The argument you formed which made you say pp doesn't make sense to you was that your pp was decreasing after getting some FC on some random map, Tom told you it didn't and that what was dropping was your rank. After that you still say it doesn't make any sense without any argument.

Have you thought about the fact that you check your rank AFTER PLAYING A MAP AND GETTING A SCORE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR RANK which means you will ONLY NOTICE CHANGES ON YOUR RANK AFTER PLAYING A MAP SINCE THAT'S WHEN YOU CHECK IT? Also, the system itself probably takes time to update stuff so it might happen that changes are shown suddenly after some specific period of time.

Oh gawd get that capslock away. It just makes you look like an aggressive scum.
Well, ya it still doesn't make any sense to me. And dude, I checked my score and all of this stuff several times. Can you please just use your brain? ;_;
It's fact that my pp increases when I'm playing old maps with a good accuracy and FC. That's okay so far. But everytime I play a new beatmap and FC it my ranks drop down. My pp doesn't change in any way. And that's confusing me. But it has absolutely nothing to do with my pp. I don't think that I need some arguments for that kinda stuff. :P
Wishy
I am aggressive and the post is meant to be aggressive.

If your rank drops it means someone raised his pp and got over you, what doesn't make sense about that? It doesn't really happen when it matters or when you check it, the facts remain the same. The only way your rank can drop is if someone raises their pp from something lower compared to yours to something higher.
xBeater

Wishy wrote:

The fact that you don't want to provide specific examples is because you are afraid that some of your "friends" might check out this thread and see how you are whining about something that makes you look inferior compared to them on the ranking system. I don't know if you brag or anything but your problem here is that you feel your e-penis got smaller.
No, it's just that I don't want to insult my friends but still I want to point that kinda inequity out that I'm feeling.
But discussions with guys like you are always meaningless, I don't really have to get myself down to that level.
nooblet
Please stop spamming this topic and let the people who actually have questions have their questions answered. I guess my question was just completely spammed out, so I guess I'll write a short version of it here (since half of it was answered already from buny's post), no need to flip back.

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way :P ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

My apologies if this has been answered already, you can point me to a page/quote if it has been. :)
RaneFire

xBeater wrote:

No, it's just that I don't want to insult my friends but still I want to point that kinda inequity out that I'm feeling.
But discussions with guys like you are always meaningless, I don't really have to get myself down to that level.
If you had worded your example differently, it would be easy to mention your friends' names and no harm would be done.

Also if your "friends" do check out this thread, they'll no doubt guess that it's them you are talking about. It's not much of a secret and mentioning names isn't really going to put them in a negative light either, since you are avoiding the situation so strongly, it makes you look like the one out to do harm. All previous examples in this thread have not been "insulted," if anything they were justified. Please, provide real examples when making claims.
Loctav
Fight elsewhere.

@Wishy just for you: FIGHT ELSEWHERE. consider this as a warning. And you know me. Take it serious.

Keep this topic clean or I make you incapable to say anything for a while.
Wishy
Yes Milord.
Horolynn
The reason your rank always drops right after you get a good score is that your ranking is always updated after gaining pp. Now you might say that you aren't gaining any, but you have to remember that you can gain even 0.01 pp, and that, while not really showing in your total pp count, will update your score and your ranking as a consequence. So instead of making posts rambling about how you think something is unfair and giving off that kind of image of yourself, stop to think for a while, search available information on this topic, and, if you can't find anything ask in a fashion that doesn't make you look like you're whining. Wishy might have been a bit harsh, but I don't blame him after seeing so many people just whine about something that they don't like.
RaneFire

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way :P ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.
I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.
nooblet

RaneFire wrote:

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.
Thanks, that seems to be the case. I just tested it out, 94% S'd Remote Control (95 aim according to tp) compared to my previous 96% and got 9 PP :)
PlasticSmoothie
Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)
Almost

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way :P ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.
I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.
Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.
Mathsma

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.
I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397
Almost

Mathsma wrote:

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.
I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397
Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105
Dalvoid

silmarilen wrote:

Dalvoid wrote:

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.


it's still there man, what the hell are you smoking?
yeah seems i was being impatient with the updates, BUT, it DID dissapear for about 2 hours before suddenly reappearing which i find very strange. i shoulda screenshotted i spose, but i dont see how that can be due to a delayed update. Obviously the system updated, because it was removed from my top 10, then updated again later and put it back

EDIT Tom94 already covered this, caused by server downtime or something last night.
electrolytes
It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.
Totoki

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way :P ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.
I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.
not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png
Keeby
this game suddenly got a lot more fun when i turned off mouse acceleration. :P (no more frustrating overshoots)

The new pp system makes me feel so accomplished for no reason. LOL good jobs
6ixr
Well, this isn't really feedback and i have no obligations on the new PP update, i'm just wondering because I had PP:5 (yeah I suck) but now i have 118.
How does that work?
RaneFire

kamiyo-sama wrote:

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png
May not be due to tp's implementation, but rather the pp side of things. We'll have to wait for the wiki and see, but I'm guessing that there's still mod-weightings. Your HD,DT score is probably higher because there are less DT's in general on "Rainbow after snow" than there are on "Magic Girl". Although "Magic Girl" is a way more popular and contested map, I wonder how much of this is a factor.

On another note:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.
thelewa

Almost wrote:

Mathsma wrote:

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397
Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105
The bonus to accuracy that HD gives is only a few percent. Unless the map gives a lot of accuracy tp already, you won't see any difference and even if it gives a lot of acc tp the difference is going to be like 2tp. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri
buny
accuracy players suffer a lot from the new system
thelewa
yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice
Frostmourne

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice
pls
buny

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice
petition pls
Ziggo
After seeing a few score examples on HD in the last posts I definitely feel like the accuracy bonus is way too small. On most maps the difference between a no HD and a HD score with the same Acc value is less than 0.5%.

thelewa wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri
It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.
Omgforz
Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.
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