Mashing through a map isn't nearly as impressive as consistency in aim, combo and accuracy. This is why those things are rewarded.

adratel wrote:

@ Kheldragar Playing difficult maps is what I see as hard work, and I don't gain pp from it.
@ Ziassan yeah it doesn't doesn't matter alot. I'll just keep enjoying the game to my desire.

There's hard work, and then there's just dumb hard work. You can try all you want to pass some 6 star map, but you're still going to perform shit at it. That's why they're called performance points, because they track how well you can PERFORM playing a map.

I feel like they should buff aim value for high ARs again.

Ability to read fast enough for a certain AR is a tricky skill to reward properly because for the most part, either you have it or you don't. Some maps are harder to read than others, but that's usually not AR-specific for a map and can't be measured anyway with the current difficulty algorithm. When you give a % bonus to aim for playing a certain AR, you're saying that someone who can play that AR (and maybe even only that AR) is a certain percent better than someone who could do the exact same thing at some lower AR, which is kinda weird. Maybe instead of returning it to its former value it would make more sense to give a low % bonus to aim pp for scores earned on higher approach rates and some flat bonus to the score's pp on top of that that depends only on the approach rate and what fraction of FC you achieved? Would make high AR more valuable for lower-ranked players and less valuable for higher-ranked players than it was previously, which I think is probably fair. In the extreme case (not suggesting this would be a good idea (though I do think there's SOME merit to it), just throwing it out there), changing the high AR bonus to a flat bonus that depends only on approach rate would mean giving a flat bonus to total pp for someone whose scores are all FCs on some specific high AR (more specifically, 20 times the bonus you get for getting a FC on one map at that AR).

Ideally there will eventually be a way to measure reading difficulty that handles both high and low AR in some map-dependent way, but until then, it's hard to say just how much of a bonus high AR should give.

10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.

jesus1412 wrote:

10.3 shouldn't be rewarded because the general consensus it's actually easier for a lot of high tier maps. AR above 10.3 is already rewarded.

In general, if you're fast enough to read a map at a certain AR, it's going to be easier for you at that AR than at any lower AR, but it's still a skill to be able to read that fast in the first place. I really don't have much sense of how difficult different approach rates are at that end of the spectrum though.

Isn't there also a bonus for low approach rates?

Patterns in lower AR might mess you up anyways even if you can read them since there are so many notes in screen at once. Which is why there is bonus for being able to read those notes in addition to being able to read that lower AR.

Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.

I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR for newer players like myself.

ShadyAngel wrote:

I know there are a lot of quick players right now , but more often than not , when you are first starting out higher AR will be harder.
At that point when you can read high AR well then you've obviously become a better player.
Before that you used to play maps that are lower AR , even though there are really difficult maps with low AR by now.
But it doesn't work like this:
newer player=lower AR
experienced player=high AR
I dont think its possible to compare low and high approach rate ,depends on what maps do you usually play and got used to.
A lesser skilled player can't play an easy map if its high AR (if there are such maps), and a better player can't play a hard(>insane) map if its low AR?
As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself. However when you started it didnt take that much effort to just click the circles when you had a whole year for it.
So:
Beatmaps: #=difficulty involving everything in general.
#---->##----->####--------->######################--------->WWW
Thats pretty linear.
But AR does not work like this.
Im just saying that harder maps tend to have high AR as well, and it incrases as you play harder and harder maps.
If you just play low AR all the time then thats going to be easier even if thats a rarity.
Good players tend to not take notice of the fact that it is actually quite challenging to read high AR to newer players like myself.

The bonus was making high level dt overweighted so it was removed. If a new player finds high AR super hard then they're not gonna be fcing high ar maps anyway so a high AR buff won't even effect them.

ShadyAngel wrote:

As mentioned before being able to read high AR is a skill in and of itself.

Honnestly reading low AR on hard/insane maps is also a skill.
It's about being able to see all those circle and understanding the patterns through all those overlapping things, quick memory and such. That's also why AR<8 give a PP bonus.
I wish their was more low ar insane maps.

Ziassan wrote:

I wish their was more low ar insane maps.

If you meant more PP-giving low AR maps, I agree with you. With the way things are now, pulling off a ~120PP play with AR8 nomod is more difficult than 120PP from AR9 nomod. Getting 140+PP from nomod AR8 is so difficult it almost feels impossible. (Maybe someday when I'm good I can 99% Poinsettia)

EDIT: oops didn't see the AR<8 part. Well, I'm all for AR7 and under too.

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

[ Momiji ] wrote:

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.

Mahoganytooth wrote:

[ Momiji ] wrote:

i swear if low AR actually gets rewarded, even if ar8 will be just balanced, easy mod will be the ultimate pp farm
cs2

You'd need to completely rebalance how the system works with OD to make EZ a viable PP gaining option even remotely possible.

i have taken it into account
especially if acc aim speed (and reading?) get separated

AR will likely never be a huge factor in pp, the same kind of people who think low AR is god hard are basically the reverse of people who think high AR is hard, i.e people with little experience in it. like how your average newb playing ar6 normals thinks ar10 is impossible.

I remember being rank 140k and wondering how ar10 was even followable.

Multtari wrote:

Patterns in lower AR might mess you up anyways even if you can read them since there are so many notes in screen at once. Which is why there is bonus for being able to read those notes in addition to being able to read that lower AR.

Higher AR lowers the amount of note density so why it should be rewarded? For being able to react faster in a rhythm game? Learning to play AR10.3 in general gives you so many maps more to play that there is no need for bonus. Just like there isn't any bonus when you move from AR7 -> AR8 -> AR9.

Completely agreed with this coment. Reading AR9 or superior is rewarding by itself just because it allows you play most of [Extras] and +5 stars maps... and I don't like the idea that this bonus raises precisely these maps that already have harder patterns difficulty just because being higher AR by itself. Appart that AR is a really polemic fact because a map can be easier if played on AR8 but harder at AR10 meanwhile the opposite can happen ... high AR (below AR+10.33) can make the same easier or harder depending each individual player and I don't find just that players with only higher AR reading that can't read well AR9 or lower at all get more rewarded from AR than players that can read AR9 and AR10's alike.

Changing topic, EZ is not a really balanced mod at all but it's viable ranking with it (if you can ). If you look at millhioreF you can look that EZ is really fine on this algorythm, 98% of EZ is equivalent to 91% FC at no mod (on OD7 vs OD3.5) thing that I find really fair. It can't be considered farming because the really effective EZ players are really strange exceptions and players with atleast 1 EZ rank are less than 250's in total. The only thing I don't like at EZ's pp distribution is how bad accuracy scales because of the really low OD, it's more likely "FC is enough and worth, I don't need at all raising accuracy". And I would say EZ should NOT have a pp boost from reading difficulty because that could make it somehow overrated and if AR is no longer considered EZ should been beneficiated from this.

DroidBass wrote:

Completely agreed with this coment. Reading AR9 or superior is rewarding by itself just because it allows you play most of [Extras] and +5 stars maps... and I don't like the idea that this bonus raises precisely these maps that already have harder patterns difficulty just because being higher AR by itself. Appart that AR is a really polemic fact because a map can be easier if played on AR8 but harder at AR10 meanwhile the opposite can happen ... high AR (below AR+10.33) can make the same easier or harder depending each individual player and I don't find just that players with only higher AR reading that can't read well AR9 or lower at all get more rewarded from AR than players that can read AR9 and AR10's alike.

Changing topic, EZ is not a really balanced mod at all but it's viable ranking with it (if you can ). If you look at millhioreF you can look that EZ is really fine on this algorythm, 98% of EZ is equivalent to 91% FC at no mod (on OD7 vs OD3.5) thing that I find really fair. It can't be considered farming because the really effective EZ players are really strange exceptions and players with atleast 1 EZ rank are less than 250's in total. The only thing I don't like at EZ's pp distribution is how bad accuracy scales because of the really low OD, it's more likely "FC is enough and worth, I don't need at all raising accuracy". And I would say EZ should NOT have a pp boost from reading difficulty because that could make it somehow overrated and if AR is no longer considered EZ should been beneficiated from this.

It takes a lot of practice to read high AR / low AR in the first place so I don't see why it wouldn't give any reward, already that "reading a map" doesn't give anything at first... So yes... obviously, EZ should have a PP boost, or in any case, the AR has to be considered in my opinion.

AR10 might be easier on some maps, same as ar10.3 but it's only easier if you can actually read it. Poeple spent weeks to learn to read this AR, I think it's something harder to do than just playing some AR8 / 9 and get the same amount of PP than someone who has gotten a new skill.

Like...seriously, someone who plays AR10.3 only all day won't be able to play Easy at all. It would need a lot of time/practice to do it. And when he will finally be able to FC a map with Easy he will probably get nothing because DT gives way more PP than anything else. So for a system who's supposed to work on INVIDUAL skill...

I think EZ having a pp boost for AR doesn't really matter as much since the od is mangled.

AR under 9 should get a pp boost. Just a little for ar7/8, but it should give a good 10% boost for EZ. There's no reason why reading skills shouldn't be rewarded. It's not subjective, high object density is difficult for everyone and requires a lot of practice to master.

congratulations, now your 60pp easy plays can become 66pp plays
the 'it's still not worth it' and 'there's more to it' effects could be nullified by separating aim, speed and acc, and creating a separate category for reading.

AR below 8 already does give a bonus. An increased one if hidden is being used. Since forever.

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

Gigo wrote:

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

Ar8 would give a pp bonus for reading just like od7 does for acc.

I think that low AR / Easy are fine how they are, Easy isn't meant to be for farming, it's to make maps easier (assuming you can read or memorise maps with it).

blahpy wrote:

assuming you can read.....

But reading is the whole reason EZ mod is difficult and should be worth more

[ Momiji ] wrote:

congratulations, now your 60pp easy plays can become 66pp plays
the 'it's still not worth it' and 'there's more to it' effects could be nullified by separating aim, speed and acc, and creating a separate category for reading.

As they find how to separate again Aim and speed then maps like Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome will get massively nerfed on DT because there is not much speed at doing single taps and triplets of 210 bpm at all (not even a single stream). That one is really overrated and very wanted just because the pp it can give... at being overrated from both star system and being OD9.67 q-q

Sincerelly I would like that a day Accuracy becomes not that independant from the map's difficulty. There are many free accuracy high OD maps that are being abused too oftenly, mostly DT ones, maps that even with their OD9 or OD9.67 lots of people rank with +99% accuracy and starting being overrated at rank from free accuracy high OD maps.

+99% accuracy is fine I know, but I mean, if it's from a map that lots of persons can easly do +99% compared to "easier" (less stars) maps that are more difficult to accurate finely and even if they're OD8-OD7 that ISN'T high OD, then I wouldn't like calling these +99% high OD ranks a really good proof of high accuracy.

The only problem I see from OD7 maps with good difficulty and with not so many circles is that their 95% and 100% values aren't that different compared to DT's 95% againist its version but at 100%. Looks weird seing less oftenly good 100% no mod ranks than 100% DT ranks on people's best performance and we see higher accuracy precisely on these OD9-OD9.67 DT maps than on these OD8 harder no mods with similar stars that the same player have ranked.

This needs atention and a counter, affortunaly it's planned a day to consider patterns complexity on the pp that each map gives, thing that should nuke down most DT overrated ranks, that HR would been unharmed and raise no mod potential (if I'm guessing right, sure)

If I learned hd and 2x100'd my top play, that'd be 304pp. Od 9.67 too strong.

Kheldragar wrote:

If I learned hd and 2x100'd my top play, that'd be 304pp. Od 9.67 too strong.

Any pp from skillet hero [Fate] is totally worth, such a beast DT rank man, nice one. The mix of anoying long sliders and circles or sliders between them makes it considerably harder than most DT's of that value, it's even better than my #1 of 252 pp. Also both cases of DT are fairly good DT ranks.

DroidBass wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

If I learned hd and 2x100'd my top play, that'd be 304pp. Od 9.67 too strong.

Any pp from skillet hero [Fate] is totally worth, such a beast DT rank man, nice one. The mix of anoying long sliders and circles or sliders between them makes it considerably harder than most DT's of that value, it's even better than my #1 of 252 pp. Also both cases of DT are fairly good DT ranks.

I thought the exact opposite; I found sentimental love + DT, seven doors nomod, up all night HR, Miiro [extra] &c. much harder than hero. I don't think the sliders are annoying, they make it easier for me to maintain whatever acc I could as opposed to having all cirlces. Don't most people alternate sliders?

To be honest, I've seen people of higher rank than mine or yours not being capable to FC skillet hero at DT on Fate. Also you should ask it to more players to have a better perspective about that rank, but personally find that map a way too difficult because my aim always sucked xP

Tom94 wrote:

AR below 8 already does give a bonus. An increased one if hidden is being used. Since forever.

I know, but the bonus should be more and it should include ar8. Low AR will never be the meta or farmable but giving it a small boost would be nice. It might encourage people to play the thousands of AR8 maps there are.

Gigo wrote:

In my opinion, AR8 should also be included in this bonus. The standards nowadays are AR9 and AR10, anything below or over that is hard for people to read. Yes, it depends on the map (more precisely, on object density), but in most cases AR8 is quite difficult.

This.

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

SS is 310 pp. If you have good acc longer maps give a lot of pp. At higher levels at least most of the HR farm maps are long.

edit: I think that long maps + low OD or accuracy are underrated.

Tess wrote:

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

I disagree, long HR maps are weighted a bit too much for high accuracy lol

Tess wrote:

So when are long HR maps gonna be weighted fairly? I have a 97% FC on Let This Go with HDHR which is a >2400 combo map worth 174pp, while Jamaican Love DT at 98.92% (which is like a minute long and the only "difficult" part is a single stream, the rest is just a bunch of triples and sliders) is worth 227pp. That seems like a pretty big gap to me, especially since Jamaican Love was a 2 try map that was absurdly easy (I didn't even think I'd get pp for it and it turned out to be my #5 play) while on Let This Go I'm ranked #16 global, which says for itself that it's not that easy to get a decent HDHR score on. It's just one of many examples where long HR maps are weighted kinda meh while short DT maps with one or maybe two spaced streams are weighted ridiculously high. Isn't there a way to bring some balance to this?

The problem with HR / HD HR is that 95% values are shit if the map isn't a really crazy map meanwhile SS is ridicully high valued. The problem with ANY high OD map is the absurd distribution of pp meant in high accuracy. JUST see a map named Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) that on 95% accuracy DT values less than 160 pp but as SS values ABSURD 280 pp ... YESSSSSS it's the same map!! Just so many circles and OD9.67.

Long maps with low OD aren't a real problem at all, sometimes the huge amount of circles at 99% is worth their pp if you are really consistent player it shouldn't be a worry if you're ranking 99% on a 700 of the same difficulty than a 1900 map alike. The REAL problem is the 5 stars OD8.4 HR plays, if you look at Hatsune Miku - Hiatus at HR, you will notice it's an highly chaotic map that is very under-rewarded same as IRON ATTACK! - Future is Undefined that has radical jumps and streams and it's not worth at more than 220's pp on SS at being harder than maps likely SMiLE.dk - Golden Sky that IS one of these free accuracy high OD ranks.

I'm seing that the main problem of this is that this algorythm isn't considering rightly the OD based on how difficult the patterns are and instead accuracy is completely independant of map's patterns complexity/level.

Xilver wrote:

I disagree, long HR maps are weighted a bit too much for high accuracy lol

Considering your accuracy can hit 99% with hardrock... Cause for the same map with the same FC if you end up with 94% you might get nothing. So for a top player who is pretty constant it might sounds right but for an average player... The FC was already something by itself I think... But in any case it would probably give nothing Because you already Fced that Jamaican Love map that give more than 200 pp so for the system the score you just did with hr isn't worth that dt play..

I mean Tess gave the perfect example about why so many maps are underated...it's because some other maps (DT maps) are overated. Something like this?

High accuracy Dragonforce HR should be worth a fuckton.

Assuming that accuracy pp is handled the same way it used to be, your accuracy pp for a play is maximized at the maximum OD at which you could SS the map - in other words, if you were to play two maps that are completely identical aside from the OD, then given that both have OD values that are too high for you to achieve an SS, you'd get more pp from the lower OD map for the same exact play. The result is that people who can get SS or near SS on OD10 get a ton of pp from HR and people who get lower accuracy get unfairly little.