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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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pooptartsonas

Tess wrote:

I can get >99% with OD9.8 maps and around 97-98% with OD10 and I still notice a difference between OD7/8/9/10. If you don't notice a difference you're just not paying attention. Even if you're a high accuracy player, if you try SSing 10 OD7 maps and then 10 OD8 maps subsequently, I can guarantee you that the 10 OD8 maps will take longer. Try it and prove me wrong.
The fact that you say you can get >99% on OD9.8 and only 97-98% on OD10 tells me something...the difference between that is pretty negligable. And as an accuracy player, I assure you pretty much the only way I'll get a 100 on OD7 or OD8 is by misreading the map or the map itself being hard. Once your accuracy gets good enough, they're both just free 300s.
Nyxa

pooptartsonas wrote:

The fact that you say you can get >99% on OD9.8 and only 97-98% on OD10 tells me something...the difference between that is pretty negligable. And as an accuracy player, I assure you pretty much the only way I'll get a 100 on OD7 or OD8 is by misreading the map or the map itself being hard. Once your accuracy gets good enough, they're both just free 300s.
I can play OD10 just as fine as OD9.8, difference is that OD10 maps are OD8+ maps with HR for me, and those maps are almost always harder than OD7 maps. It's less to do with the OD than with the map itself. If I can handle the map, the OD is rarely a problem, but if it's too fast/difficult it does become one.

Also, about the higher score - lower pp problem, can't a raw pp calculator be implemented in-game just like the star system, and recalculate all scores locally, bringing the maps with the highest raw pp value to the top of the list? And then maybe have the option to choose between looking at pp and score rankings for old maps, so you could see the top 50 in terms of pp if you wanted to, and eliminating score rankings for new maps entirely. Or simply replace the score rankings with pp rankings entirely and forget about score rankings since people aren't ranked based on their score anyway. I'm not a programmer, I don't know how hard that'd be, but since you already have something that calculates raw pp it doesn't sound impossible to me. Saying "otherwise people will complain" doesn't sound like an excuse peppy would make, since he's made plenty of "deal with it" updates before. People would just adapt and learn to live with it. I think if the scores were recalculated locally and old scores simply replaced with new ones there shouldn't be any more load on the servers than there is now.
ivan
x
jesse1412

Tess wrote:

I'm not saying that easy FL plays should be rewarded more, I'm saying that hard ones should. Long maps with large combos should give a significant amount of pp with FL because comboing is the very thing that FL makes hard for you to do. When you play with HR, you get rewarded for the higher CS and OD. When you play with DT, you get rewarded for the higher speed and occasionally AR. When you play with HD, you get rewarded for the slight increase in aim difficulty. Why don't you get rewarded for combos with FL?

The aim boost should stay and be accompanied by a combo boost, because those are the two things that are difficult to do with FL.

And no, not anyone can FC a typical map with FL in a week.
Show me a "hard" FL score that doesn't reward enough and I'll believe you.
Nyxa









I find the difference in pp between these scores way too high. HDHR > FL in terms of difficulty (when it comes to >99% scores, anyway) but I don't think that there should be nearly a 100pp difference between HDHR and FL with similar accuracies on the same map. If you think the pp rewarded here is fair, that's fine, but you should really consider whether you're underrating FL or not.

I know that I might be overrating it, but I think that people are pushing it to the side a little too much.
Granger

jesus1412 wrote:

Tess wrote:

I'm not saying that easy FL plays should be rewarded more, I'm saying that hard ones should. Long maps with large combos should give a significant amount of pp with FL because comboing is the very thing that FL makes hard for you to do. When you play with HR, you get rewarded for the higher CS and OD. When you play with DT, you get rewarded for the higher speed and occasionally AR. When you play with HD, you get rewarded for the slight increase in aim difficulty. Why don't you get rewarded for combos with FL?

The aim boost should stay and be accompanied by a combo boost, because those are the two things that are difficult to do with FL.

And no, not anyone can FC a typical map with FL in a week.
Show me a "hard" FL score that doesn't reward enough and I'll believe you.
That would be about any long map/marathon, but nobody borthers playing those with because it involves a significant amount of effort, high difficulty (I dare you to FC something really long when you can see barely 3cm to the sides), and low reward in comparision to the effort.

People complain about FL as too rewarding because it still gives a high score bonus for short maps where FL is actually easy but anything much longer than 200 combo gets really hard and thats where the long maps (1500+ combo, even 1000+ is impressive) get undervalued.

In my oponion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base scorebonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
Vuelo Eluko

Granger wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Show me a "hard" FL score that doesn't reward enough and I'll believe you.
That would be about any long map/marathon, but nobody borthers playing those with because it involves a significant amount of effort, high difficulty (I dare you to FC something really long when you can see barely 3cm to the sides), and low reward in comparision to the effort.

People complain about FL as too rewarding because it still gives a high score bonus for short maps where FL is actually easy but anything much longer than 200 combo gets really hard and thats where the long maps (1500+ combo, even 1000+ is impressive) get undervalued.

In my oponion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base scorebonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
Show him a "hard" FL score that doesn't reward enough and he'll believe you.
Nyxa

Granger wrote:

In my opinion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base score bonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
Why is this so hard to agree with or implement? In my opinion, it would be much better if the score bonuses were:

HD: 1.06x
HR: 1.08x
FL: 1.10x
DT: 1.12x

It's a mod in the game and you can't tell me that HR is harder than FL. FL should be worth it on longer maps. That requires a hell of a lot of skill and not just anyone can memorize an entire 2000-combo map and get high accuracy on it. You can call any FL score easy - that doesn't make it so. That reminds me of the guy who played a map I recommended to him as a hard map, and he went "LOL this is easy LOLOL" but when I asked him to FC it he couldn't do it, and said it wasn't worth it because it would take too many tries.
jesse1412
Alright here's the deal. You can pick a map of your choice and FL it and I'll try to beat your score with FL. I'll then pick a map of my choice with DT and you have to try and beat my score with DT and we'll see which one requires to most effort. If you can beat my score before I beat yours, I'll admit FL is underrated.
silmarilen
how about you do it this way
you pick a map that's worth 200pp with fl
and then you pick a map that's worth 200pp with dt
and you look which one takes longer to fc

both options are stupid and you know it
jesse1412

silmarilen wrote:

how about you do it this way
you pick a map that's worth 200pp with fl
and then you pick a map that's worth 200pp with dt
and you look which one takes longer to fc

both options are stupid and you know it
True, because effort isn't skill and effort shouldn't be rewarded. FL is literally just an effort mod that's all, if you sit there and FL a map for 2 months straight you WILL FC it but the same isn't true for DT. There are scores that, no matter how long someone sits there, they will never be able to do with DT, contrarily I doubt there is a single FL score where the same can be said. Maybe the amount of effort needed for FL grows almost exponentially with difficulty, but that doesn't make effort deserve any extra reward than results.
Nyxa
That's a silly thing to say, since FL does require several skills (memory, patience, the ability to aim at nothing and a shitload of focus) as opposed to DT which requires speed and accuracy, which, depending on the map, are also a requirement for playing with FL. Also, you put effort into developing your skill. You don't only retry maps for FL. There are people who simply can't FC with FL, and there are people who simply can't FC with DT. It's a separate skill and the fact that memory/retries are a requirement doesn't make it any less of one.

That said, I don't want FL to get a buff in general. I just want it to get a buff on longer maps. I agree that 500 combo FL maps are /way/ easier to FC than 2K+ combo FL maps. But 2K+ combo FL maps require a huge amount of skill (unless the map is easy, in which case it wouldn't give much pp anyway) to properly FC, and are not rewarded fairly right now. You're talking as if I want FL to reward as much as DT, but that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I want a combo pp boost added to FL on top of the aim pp boost. I don't see how that is such an unreasonable request.

Lastly, your rank is so much higher than mine that challenging me to something like that is an unfair challenge and you know that. It wouldn't make a point for you at all if you succeeded and I didn't, nor would it really make a point for me, since I'm not trying to compare FL and DT here. It would be better if you picked an FL player from X rank and a non-FL player from a similar rank and asked both of them to FL the same map, and see how long it takes each one to FC it, maybe above a certain percentage. I'm quite sure that the FL player would take less time to do it without a doubt because they've had practice with the mod (just as people who've never played with HD will usually suck at it once they try it out, and a lot of players who've never played with DT/HR will also suck at those mods once they try them out). Sucking at mods you lack practice in is normal, and the more practice you get, the better you become with those mods. The only difference with FL is that it is impossible to sightread FC with it. But no one's top scores are sightreads anyway, so using that as an argument is kind of pointless. I retry a lot for every mod if I want to get a good score, and FL is the only one that gives way too low a reward.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tess wrote:

Why is this so hard to agree with or implement? In my opinion, it would be much better if the score bonuses were:

HD: 1.06x
HR: 1.08x
FL: 1.10x
DT: 1.12x
Knowing the underlying data and having dealt with balancing the system I can tell you that this kind of solution would work terribly. The bonuses would be for one part far too low for people to feel satisfied and for the other part horribly unbalanced on some maps, since they are just flat bonuses ignoring how the map is like.


Granger wrote:

In my opinion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base score bonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
I assume you are talking about the flashlight bonus alone in your above statement. It's worth thinking about changing the bonus from being scaling flat with aim pp to making it scale even more with map length. I'd ditch the base bonus in that case completely, though. Makes it easier to balance and makes more sense to me.


In general, please keep in mind that pp aims to satisfy as many people as possible, so I will keep tuning it towards what I feel is the prominent opinion of the community.
-GN
Skills required to play FL well are not measured by pp, and i doubt they ever will, so i don't think FL should be buffed much, if at all. Maybe if you incorporate reading difficulty into the system(maybe memorization score as a way to compare FL plays against each other), but that seems pretty unlikely, really.
Nyxa

-GN wrote:

Skills required to play FL well are not measured by pp, and i doubt they ever will, so i don't think FL should be buffed much, if at all. Maybe if you incorporate reading difficulty into the system(maybe memorization score as a way to compare FL plays against each other), but that seems pretty unlikely, really.
I suppose this is true, though I do think that this

Tom94 wrote:

I assume you are talking about the flashlight bonus alone in your above statement. It's worth thinking about changing the bonus from being scaling flat with aim pp to making it scale even more with map length. I'd ditch the base bonus in that case completely, though. Makes it easier to balance and makes more sense to me.
is a better alternative to what we have now.
FGSky
with this system FL is just a lose-time mod
Shimatora

FGSky wrote:

with this system FL is just a lose-time mod
-Soba-
Isn't FL just a lose time way of getting #1s
Vuelo Eluko
even if FL gave dt amounts of pp people would still look at FL players as randoms
jesse1412

Riince wrote:

even if FL gave dt amounts of pp people would still look at FL players as randoms
Pretty much this. People ignore FL for a reason. When you look at things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155929?m=0 the last thing you care about is the fact that someone FL'd it (although that rank 1 is fairly impressive, no one cares about it).
NixXSkate

jesus1412 wrote:

Riince wrote:

even if FL gave dt amounts of pp people would still look at FL players as randoms
Pretty much this. People ignore FL for a reason. When you look at things like this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/155929?m=0 the last thing you care about is the fact that someone FL'd it (although that rank 1 is fairly impressive, no one cares about it).
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
Yeah but looking at plays like this makes me rock hard. Which gets less pp than the HD+DT SSs of course. Despite the fact Dungeon coulda gotten an SS on the map way over 25 times with the amount of plays he put (and his accuracy wasn't bad at all).

Although combo after 200 should affect the pp FL gives, I think the speed of the jumps and the map itself should be a much much bigger factor, which it sort-of is currently, just not enough in some cases. If a long map has slow jumps, it's really just patience in order to FL it, there's not much rectum squeezing. It's sometimes unfair, however, because people tend to have the mindset that FL players played the map so much that it's so embedded into their muscle memory that FL barely makes a difference to them after their practice. But on a map that's really difficult to FL, they'd probably only FC it 1 or 2 times total. Basically, when they finally get the scores, there's like too much of a focus overload to hit an extremely good accuracy, which matters more than the aim bonus. They could, of course, play it 1000s of more times until it requires much less focus to aim so they can focus on accuracy, but not everyone has as much patience as this guy.

FL does take skill, people can get better at it, and people like loli_milk were able to FL scores fast because of the fast reflexes and jumping with fast recall he had. How to measure FL for PP? I have no clue, it's too much mental skill rather than physical, but just keep in mind that when someone manages to FL a song that's difficult with it on, they're probably having a focus overload and pissing their pants, especially by the end. Unless they're used to it like BluOxy. The difficulty FL adds is so much greater as the difficulty increases, and I think it would be fair if scores such as Mesita's score here was worth slightly more, or at least around the same as the DT+HD SS scores, because scores like this aren't really whore-able to 99.999% of players. You can't really decide "oh I'm gonna DT+FL something like this for the pp" because it would take so much conviction and dedication for the average non-autistic person, and you would need to be able to FC it somewhat consistently without FL.

Tess wrote:

Granger wrote:

In my opinion it would be a idea to slightly lower the base score bonus and have a scaling bonus for combos past 200.
Why is this so hard to agree with or implement? In my opinion, it would be much better if the score bonuses were:

HD: 1.06x
HR: 1.08x
FL: 1.10x
DT: 1.12x

It's a mod in the game and you can't tell me that HR is harder than FL. FL should be worth it on longer maps. That requires a hell of a lot of skill and not just anyone can memorize an entire 2000-combo map and get high accuracy on it. You can call any FL score easy - that doesn't make it so. That reminds me of the guy who played a map I recommended to him as a hard map, and he went "LOL this is easy LOLOL" but when I asked him to FC it he couldn't do it, and said it wasn't worth it because it would take too many tries.
I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead, but nobody seemed phased. (I think my idea was actually 1.03 for HD, 1.06 for HR, 1.09 for FL, and 1.12 for DT or something...)
Nyxa
Yeah, the basic idea was to have score reflect pp so that, for example, HDHR scores wouldn't be worth as much as DT scores.
Winshley
Spun Out reduces the final beatmap's pp by 5%.
SpunOut shouldn't reduce pp by flat percentage, but rather the total amount of length of the spinner(s) or total number of spinner(s) or both instead.

While this may sound silly, I'm planning to use SpunOut to make a HD+HR+FL+SO scores so that I can actually enjoy getting SS with such mod combinations on certain map(s) while preventing myself from taking #1 away from players who have HD+DT or DT+FL scores. Would be weird that I got less pp when the map has 0 spinners, isn't it? :P
Topic Starter
Tom94

Winshley wrote:

Spun Out reduces the final beatmap's pp by 5%.
SpunOut shouldn't reduce pp by flat percentage, but rather the total amount of length of the spinner(s) or total number of spinner(s) or both instead.

While this may sound silly, I'm planning to use SpunOut to make a HD+HR+FL+SO scores so that I can actually enjoy getting SS with such mod combinations on certain map(s) while preventing myself from taking #1 away from players who have HD+DT or DT+FL scores. Would be weird that I got less pp when the map has 0 spinners, isn't it? :P
Making spunout pp depend on the amount of spinners makes sense indeed. I'll see if I can add this in the next balance adjustment.
koromo

NixXSkate wrote:

I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead
I actually thought about this a week or so ago but didn't bother posting. Would love to see score replaced with pp for more accurate scoreboards, though a change this big seems unlikely, and is probably too much of a bother, but who knows.
NixXSkate

koromo wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I've suggested something like this in the thread that wants PP to act as score instead
I actually thought about this a week or so ago but didn't bother posting. Would love to see score replaced with pp for more accurate scoreboards, though a change this big seems unlikely, and is probably too much of a bother, but who knows.
I would hate it.
koromo

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
It's probably impossible anyway, considering SS scores + spinner bonus and whatnot (since spinners make no difference in pp), plus tons of replays not being available due to not being in the top 50 despite giving enough pp to make it otherwise.
Woobowiz
pp based scoreboards would be fantastic, and same pp tiebreakers can be resolved after by score, then by date achieved (1st to score it wins)
Nyxa

Woobowiz wrote:

pp based scoreboards would be fantastic, and same pp tiebreakers can be resolved after by score, then by date achieved (1st to score it wins)
Yes.

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
Why, though? Everybody knows that score has nothing to do with which play was harder to make - just look at the Hoshizora no Ima scoreboard if you disagree. Or Killer Song, or Wahrheit. What's the point of a scoreboard if the top scores aren't the best scores?
NixXSkate
Why are you all discussing this here?
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/220119
Discuss how much you want FL scores to not show on leaderboards most of the time, unclear bonuses on songs, and spinning to be a useless skill in this thread instead, dammit.

Tess wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I would hate it.
Why, though? Everybody knows that score has nothing to do with which play was harder to make - just look at the Hoshizora no Ima scoreboard if you disagree. Or Killer Song, or Wahrheit. What's the point of a scoreboard if the top scores aren't the best scores?
I already discussed what I consider a solution in this thread previously (if you scroll up), and a previous post in the other thread.
Nyxa
Suggestion unrelated to any previous discussion - does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a #pp channel in-game? I mean, this thread has been going on for a while, it's clear that, since pp is constantly evolving, it will be constantly discussed. Maybe live discussion of it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Just a suggestion. After looking at that other thread, it just seems like a lot of people have questions about pp and have things they'd like to discuss about it, and plenty of people seem interested, so, I think this might be a pretty beneficial idea.

Opinions?
Gigo
Uhm... can't you just discuss pp-related stuff here? That's why this thread was created in the first place. Why is a separate channel needed? I really don't see a point.
Nyxa
Because channels are faster than threads. With your argument ("Can't you just discuss it on the forums?") any IRC channel would be obsolete, because a forum thread could be made for it. However, this thread is nearing 100 pages. For how much longer do you intend to keep it going, anyway?
GoldenWolf

Tess wrote:

However, this thread is nearing 100 pages. For how much longer do you intend to keep it going, anyway?
For as long as people aren't 100% happy with the current pp system and they see potential changes that would make it more accurate
Nyxa
Which is for a long time. Well, it was just a suggestion, i think it might be useful.
Makan1
I really dislike the idea of pp based scoreboards, I don't see it working exceptionally well.
First it would make FL even more useless
Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

I guess this feature can be applicable to supporter leaderboards but I don't see the point of it at all unless its only for seeing how much pp this play is worth, then that can just be added somewhere under the actual score with the combo and such.

FL players work extremely hard only to get 1st on a map and it seems unfair.
Zare

Makan1 wrote:

Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone

Makan1 wrote:

hdhr SS
:^)
Makan1

Zare wrote:

Makan1 wrote:

Second it could make a lot of even scores of popular maps which everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone hdhr SS

Makan1 wrote:

everyone

Makan1 wrote:

hdhr SS
:^)
Gahhhhhh you know what I meant. Not 'everyone' but people who are 'ok' at the game.
Actually fuck that, how about a easy map where everyone SS with 4 mods for top 50
D:<
What if it were the case where it was easy to SS with hdhr but too fast of a Bpm to do on DT :o
........... Guess maps that fast are hard to SS anyways, yea.
Ok only easy maps or In the future where everyone it godlike
Genki1000
I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
Vuelo Eluko

Genki1000 wrote:

I'm actually more concerned about maps like this

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/85675&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66359&m=0

where people deliberately take off HR to gain more spinner bonus.

PP scoreboards will completely reset the rankings those kind of maps
the scoring system should already discourage this kind of crap. it will become first come first serve and the randoms spinning their way onto scoreboards on 1 star maps that anyone can FC on their first day instead of properly progressing or playing maps their level will be encouraged to do so. Sure there's no 'right' way to play osu! but does the system really need to reward such a stagnant playstyle?
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