that's the best quoting I've ever seen
In order:Ippikiryu wrote:
My questions:
- Since it says it both factors in difficulty and checks all scores, will you get pp for, let's say, a low acc pass of Freedom Dive 4D? (Or insert any other appropriately hard map) Or is FCing still heavily important?
- Is there still a huge bonus for SS?
- How much is accuracy weighted compared to ppv1?
Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.Tom94 wrote:
The problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.EvaRia wrote:
SPOILERI had an interesting idea.
I know peppy wants to try to put a lot of emphasis on "Contextually relevant" scores into a ranking system, something like a ladder.
I've noticed an effect amongst certain scoreboards, something I guess we can call Scoreboard Stability.
It's hard to explain well, so examples are best I guess?
Highly "Unstable" Scoreboards (The top scores vary heavily on the same mod tier, few if any FCs or SS):
FREEDOM DiVE
osu! Stream Compilation
Don't say "lazy"
Usually incredibly difficult, long, or new maps.
Highly "Stable" Scoreboards (The top scores on the same mod tiers are incredibly similar):
Sis puella magica!
Chousai Kenbo Sengen
Usually incredibly easy or highly played maps.
I think maps with a higher unstable rate scoreboards are generally more "Contextual" (OMG, who's going to be the first to FC this? Who will be the first to FC this with HDHR? DT? FL? First to SS?)
For example, plays like some of Mesita's Flashlight plays (World's End, Gold Dust) or some of Cookiezi's old DT/HR/SS plays (Leia, Airman, Kokou no Sousei) are particularly impressive because they're pretty much the only ones who have charted with those mods or stats.
On the other hand, getting a first place in something like Chousai Kenbo Sengen, while impressive, is slightly less so because so many others have proven themselves of accomplishing it. Unless it's SS, which in this comparison I guess you could consider a Mod tier.
Anyways, I think if you had a way of comparing scoreboard instability and either compiling a chart or weighting the PP top ranks towards more unstable maps we would have a nice context relevant ranking formula.
The rough scale would range from the feasible infinite instability (Nobody has ever even passed this) to the quite impossible infinite stability (Literally ever user in existence has SS.) and award most possible points if you're the only existing user who's achieved the rank. (Mesita only user to S rank World's End on HDFL or better.)
Am I making sense?
This would give flashlight players something to hunt for as they can get high PP values of maps that nobody else has gotten a FL FC in before.
It also would weight more recent plays higher since scoreboards naturally stabilize more over time with some significantly slower outliers.
What you're describing is somewhat dimilar to what the previous pp iterations tried to do and you've seen where it led to. Nobody has the time to play _all_ the overrated old / easy diffs to farm and make them "stable".EvaRia wrote:
SPOILERThe problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.
Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.
I agree that as far as pure skill is involved, the difficulty of the map itself is the most relevant for determining skill level.
But since you're calculating primarily based on difficulty and not on context, where I'm proposing a metric based on context with no regard for difficulty, they could theoretically exist as different metrics right?
Even shoutouts to unique awesome plays (mostly for top tier players) would make things interesting.
"<NAME> is the first to achieve rank <RANK> or better using <MODS> on <BEATMAP> (<RANKING>)!"
I don't know how exactly it would be implemented right now, but as far as a ladder system or proper context frame goes, I feel like it would be better than whatever's currently popular. It gives a certain focus on undermining scores and record-hunting that I think would be neat to see. It would also be pretty dynamic, I think.
Unstable maps are played to get the score bonus, but as they get played they stabilize again. This leaves the more difficult maps that take much longer to stabilize lingering at the top of the chart and looking through it gives you a handy way of finding the most "relevant" leaderboards.
Maybe this doesn't work the way I imagine it would though?
Planned or actually going to happen?Tom94 wrote:
. Pattern difficulty is not yet implemented but definitely planned.
It's time to learn to play Insanes++ (:NaThaNeL wrote:
i will have my old Rank ;_; please give it back
30k-->18k-->5k-->8k-->31k ;(
Don't worry, asking as question shouldn't offend anyone.Kinji wrote:
um, well, i am really confused with the new system, but why is there a BIG difference between a player tp and the ranking? Sorry if I kinda offended anyone here....
Probably the system updatingMazzerin wrote:
I just played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263384&m=0 on Nogard for the first time and passed it, and lost 4pp. Is there any particular reason for that?
You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.Mazzerin wrote:
I just played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263384&m=0 on Nogard for the first time and passed it, and lost 4pp. Is there any particular reason for that?
If I would present you with a system where players are strictly ranked by amount of #1s, then believe me, you wouldn't be happy about it. Or do you support farming easy diffs with all possible mods all day?HandHeldPillow wrote:
this system seems semi messed up. i mean in all honesty the person with the most #1's should be #1 not someone who has a few #1's on some retarded maps, i mean this was proven yesterday 1 person 20 #1's and 8k pp, this system is super flawed
HandHeldPillow wrote:
this system seems semi messed up. i mean in all honesty the person with the most #1's should be #1 not someone who has a few #1's on some retarded maps, i mean this was proven yesterday 1 person 20 #1's and 8k pp, this system is super flawed
I hope this a sincere troll. By your logic, if I went and got the most #1's on easy maps, I should be #1 world? Please.HandHeldPillow wrote:
the person with the most #1's should be #1
Hards still do give a considerable amount of pp - if your best scores consist of hards or worse. You seem to already have climbed up to some Insanes. A ranking system, that tries to tell people how good they are shouldn't reward you a lot for playing maps that are more or less easy for you. Farming is not a bad thing and actually already built in for your first few thousand scores, but with 20,000 plays this has already more or less come to a halt for you.HandHeldPillow wrote:
i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet
NaThaNeL wrote:
i don't like it :'(
To get more pp i must pass and read insane
But thats what i can't!!
Iam on Hard + HD so Insane needs to long!
So i must give up my Rank
If you want ranks, you need to get better. You don't need to be Cookiezi to make your rank higher than it is, you just need to be better than you are right now.HandHeldPillow wrote:
i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet
Don't you think No Fail and Slow passes should be left out? I mean, I don't even know why they're ranked in the first place, but allowing these to give pps just makes things even messier.Tom94 wrote:
You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.
Not at all, see this hypothetical example, there is a long song with 1000 notes (fc) and 220 bpm, which has a long stream at the end. Player 1 can't stream at that speed, so he plays with NF, and gets a 90% acc 600 combo score, player 2 can barely stream at that speed, and gets a 75% acc 300 combo score, without mods. At least, if you ask me, Player 1 deserves more pp, by far, and that score shouln't be left out.FlameseeK wrote:
Don't you think No Fail and Slow passes should be left out? I mean, I don't even know why they're ranked in the first place, but allowing these to give pps just makes things even messier.Tom94 wrote:
You can't lose pp by getting a completely new score - that is by passing a map you never passed before. Everything is being reprocessed at the moment, so instabilities like this may occur for a short while. Did you maybe have a NoFail pass on the map before? That one might have been considered better.
And when the more important stuff is settled, a place where you can see all your contributing maps and their scores.ChaosVictor wrote:
I think there could be a separate ranking to Speed, Accuracy and Aim, instead of only for Score and overall Performance. You can already calculate each of them, right? It would help give people a notion to what they should improve and what they can already do.
What you're basically asking for here is for an increase in rank without an increase in skill. This is exactly why the old ranking system was removed. If you don't like your rank - improve as a player. If you don't want to improve as a player, accept the rank you have.HandHeldPillow wrote:
i dont believe that farming easy and normals should not reward pp at higher levels, but i do believe that hards should be taken account and give some (not as much as ppv1 but some) pp, in the current state it seems that i have to become a circle clicking god to gain ranks, sadly my asian levels have not hit 9000 yet
Wasn't nofail only going to give a 0.05x score decrease? I think this is better, since there are some maps that I can play quite fine until one part that I always fail. Being able to still get a reasonable score for doing well on the rest of the map should be fair.pold10 wrote:
Not at all, see this hypothetical example, there is a long song with 1000 notes (fc) and 220 bpm, which has a long stream at the end. Player 1 can't stream at that speed, so he plays with NF, and gets a 90% acc 600 combo score, player 2 can barely stream at that speed, and gets a 75% acc 300 combo score, without mods. At least, if you ask me, Player 1 deserves more pp, by far, and that score shouln't be left out.
Most of the older and easier maps are incredibly stable already. There's less, not more incentive to play them based on what I'm describing.Tom94 wrote:
What you're describing is somewhat dimilar to what the previous pp iterations tried to do and you've seen where it led to. Nobody has the time to play _all_ the overrated old / easy diffs to farm and make them "stable".EvaRia wrote:
SPOILERThe problem with this concept, is that the people who play [hard] diffs, old maps or top-tier maps are very different and therefore the data we have to analyze will also be different. This was one of the main issues of previous pp iterations, making [hard] and old maps being weighted much more, because statistically they seemed harder than they were since most of the good players didn't play them.
Well, keep in mind that what I'm proposing is a purely contextual metric.
I agree that as far as pure skill is involved, the difficulty of the map itself is the most relevant for determining skill level.
But since you're calculating primarily based on difficulty and not on context, where I'm proposing a metric based on context with no regard for difficulty, they could theoretically exist as different metrics right?
Even shoutouts to unique awesome plays (mostly for top tier players) would make things interesting.
"<NAME> is the first to achieve rank <RANK> or better using <MODS> on <BEATMAP> (<RANKING>)!"
I don't know how exactly it would be implemented right now, but as far as a ladder system or proper context frame goes, I feel like it would be better than whatever's currently popular. It gives a certain focus on undermining scores and record-hunting that I think would be neat to see. It would also be pretty dynamic, I think.
Unstable maps are played to get the score bonus, but as they get played they stabilize again. This leaves the more difficult maps that take much longer to stabilize lingering at the top of the chart and looking through it gives you a handy way of finding the most "relevant" leaderboards.
Maybe this doesn't work the way I imagine it would though?
With a lot of work a system like that might be tuned to be somewhat correct, but from my past experiences (yes, I also tried those kind of things with tp to a small degree) it doubt it'd be feasible.
The shoutouts you mention are indeed very interesting, but that would be even harder to implement with the way scoring works at the moment.
I'm afraid I don't quite grasp what you call "unstable" then. Also note the word "most", that you have been using. The ranking system needs to be reliable on all maps - or more precisely: the worst-case error should be minimized. Single points of failure can easily spoil things.EvaRia wrote:
Most of the older and easier maps are incredibly stable already. There's less, not more incentive to play them based on what I'm describing.
The incentive is to do better in maps that NOT stabilized.
This doesn't necessarily have to be part of the ppv2 algorithm but could be a way of building something like a dynamic chart consisting of the most relevant scoreboards.
Are you 100%ly sure, that your pp didn't change, or did it simply not display any change in-game? Because if it displays in your best-performance list, then it definitely gets included in the calculation for your pp value.Nagashurai wrote:
I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.
My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.
Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?
Tom94 wrote:
I'm afraid I don't quite grasp what you call "unstable" then. Also note the word "most", that you have been using. The ranking system needs to be reliable on all maps - or more precisely: the worst-case error should be minimized. Single points of failure can easily spoil things.EvaRia wrote:
Most of the older and easier maps are incredibly stable already. There's less, not more incentive to play them based on what I'm describing.
The incentive is to do better in maps that NOT stabilized.
This doesn't necessarily have to be part of the ppv2 algorithm but could be a way of building something like a dynamic chart consisting of the most relevant scoreboards.
If you can give me a detailed explanation of what you have in mind, then don't hestitate to send me some paragraphs per PM. I'm talking about precise definitions of what "unstable" would be and how the scores should be weighted according to it. I'm curious.Are you 100%ly sure, that your pp didn't change, or did it simply not display any change in-game? Because if it displays in your best-performance list, then it definitely gets included in the calculation for your pp value.Nagashurai wrote:
I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.
My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.
Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?
Regarding the rank 36 notification in your profile: Either it is connected to scores getting removed from said map after you achieved rank 36 (unlikely) or it is indeed a bug. That one doesn't have to do with pp and it would be great if you could report it as a bug in the appropriate subforum.
It's the same for me, I set 3 scores that would have given me a large amount of TP points, just now! Yet they didn't give me any pp at all, not even 1? This is probably a bugNagashurai wrote:
I briefly looked through this thread and I didn't find a similar case, but I got a new top rank score according to both the tp and the ppv2 system. However, the thing that confuses me is that I did not gain any pp points for the run, though I gained quite a bit of tp points. The beatmap was SYNC.ART'S - Sins -Kokoro no Tsumi- under the nightmare difficulty.
My question is, why didn't it give me any pp for the run? I mean the accuracy was 99.06% with a full combo of 1087 and with the dt mod used. I have heard of several other players experiencing this, but I couldn't find an exact answer as to why this occurs.
Oh, and on a side note, why does it say that I'm rank 36 and not 34 for the beatmap?