subjective opinions on measurements of skill aside

update 2: i’ve cancelled rollout of any new ranking system for now. will try again after you guys forget your old ranks.

I don't understand how this is supposed to help at all. I'm hope you realize that most of the people complaining about the ranking are the ones who are pretty obsessed about the game, who will probably remember their ppv1 rank for as long as they continue to play the game seriously.

Obviously with a new system rolling out people are going to complain, because people usually don't like deviations from what they're used to. Think about what happens every time facebook rolls out a new change.
But what it almost looks is right now is that the criticism is overwhelming, and unable to handle said criticism, management is putting away their changes and hoping everyone forgets about it.
Except they're never going to forget about it. If you have an infected wound, just putting a piece of cloth over it won't help - in fact, it'll make it even worse for when you do decide to take the cloth off.

Maybe the system is good, and maybe it's bad but I guess what I'm trying to say is: if you're THAT confident your new system is good, there's no reason why you should ever have to roll it back like this.

I think a few complaints are necessary. Without opinions on what is right and wrong with the ranking system it would be hard to guide it to a desirable result. I wouldn't care what my rank is in the new system as long as it is considered accurate.

i can't live without any rank

please give me pp/pp2

I think it's very unfair of you to lock the thread before allowing the OP to at least reply to what you had to say in regards to her post. I'm fairly certain she was aware of ppv2 not being implemented and ppv1 being broken, but that does not invalidate any of her arguements. You also fail to understand the fact that some people play games for that one number- competition is considered fun by many, and it's not just a vicious battle against other players. Quitting is an extreme solution, but Elysion probably has her own reasons outside of ppv2 to quit.

If they play for competition, they should have quite over the last few months. There was no way to make pp on new maps, after all.

Maybe if you completely deprecated ranked metrics outside of score, a competitive ladder, chart rankings, and map-specific rankings, people like Elysion wouldn't complain, or quit. Even if you take the ranking system out, the players will still be concerned about the future release of the ranking system. Since it's incomplete, players are going to worry what their rank is going to look like when it IS finally complete. It would be better off to have nothing than the ranks that are showing up in the client right now. I feel like the system itself is unnecessary as it is now.

That's the plan, going forward. Chill and watch on.

You seem to have your own ideas that everyone is misinformed and never pays full attention to your posts and everything going on regarding the ranking system. We have enough of an attention span to read news posts regarding your game and make compelling arguements about what we want done with it. It feels like you're underestimating the intelligence of the community as a whole, rushing to conclusions and locking threads without giving anything proper consideration or trying to hold a civil discussion or arguement. I know a lot of people like to instigate drama and it's hard to achieve stuff like that over a forum post (and I'm even a little guilty of that here; I'm posting after you locked a thread) but I'd like to see you acknowledge some of the community's opinions on what should be done with the ranking system.

The disabling of pp was to avoid it getting any further incorrect than it is. I stated this in the opening line of my post. What followed was people blindly complaining about v2 (which was visible for a short period, before calculations were even run). All I can take from this is that no one read the post.

(I really don't want to be the person who has to post this and call you stubborn regarding these issues. While it may be exclusively my opinion, I would deign to say that some of the community agrees. Apologies for expressing myself. And apologies for any drama this may or may not cause.)

I am stubborn, because I believe in the direction I am taking the game. And after almost eight years, if you don't have a bit of faith then you should probably reconsider what the hell you are doing here?

rushing to conclusions and locking threads without giving anything proper consideration or trying to hold a civil discussion or arguement.

You guys ARE rushing in to conclusion. If you want to lodge a formal complaint, you should do so a month after trying the new system. It has been less than a day and has not even been implemented yet.

You also fail to understand the fact that some people play games for that one number

If it was that important, I'm sure people would be able to exploit the new system as well. Why be bothered about it anyway if you are confident about your skill? Just learn the system as you did with ppv1 and rise up in ranks.

(I really don't want to be the person who has to post this and call you stubborn regarding these issues. While it may be exclusively my opinion, I would deign to say that some of the community agrees. Apologies for expressing myself. And apologies for any drama this may or may not cause.)

Be patient, you are also being stubborn about something that hasn't been implemented.

Except they're never going to forget about it. If you have an infected wound, just putting a piece of cloth over it won't help - in fact, it'll make it even worse for when you do decide to take the cloth off.

This doesn't bother me. People get used to change. Were you here when I switched from ranked score to pp? It was worse than this .

Maybe the system is good, and maybe it's bad but I guess what I'm trying to say is: if you're THAT confident your new system is good, there's no reason why you should ever have to roll it back like this.

I am confident it is more accurate when it is completely calculated, and when you understand its purpose. That said, it has a very different purpose to v1, so without making people aware of that, rolling it out just causes a mess.

peppy wrote:

If they play for competition, they should have quite over the last few months. There was no way to make pp on new maps, after all.

Horo is a great example of someone who was still gaming the system and making pp off of it. New maps may not have provided pp, but it was still very possible to use that ranking metric. A lot of competitive players still existed even after ppv1 updates stopped.

peppy wrote:

That's the plan, going forward. Chill and watch on.

I'm waiting.

peppy wrote:

I am stubborn, because I believe in the direction I am taking the game. And after almost eight years, if you don't have a bit of faith then you should probably reconsider what the hell you are doing here?

I am a skeptic therefore I never have any faith. You have to earn my trust by yielding results. I sincerely hope you can take the game in a good direction, otherwise my complaints will have been for nothing.

How long will this all take? To be fair, things do take a very long time to be added, and when they are, they're extremely rough. It doesn't give people hope that it will happen any time soon or even in a year. We assumed all that time the performance charts were down on our profiles, and it said (coming back with PPV2) or w/e, that that time was spent doing what's happening right now. I'm sorry if that sounds confusing.

I just wish I wasn't in the dark about things.

nice discussion, i never saw peppy that active. the only thing i can say is that peppy is a human, like all in this site. he can't do magic or miracles, but he brought us an awesome game. imperfect but awesome. he has the right to take his time to fix any issues he may find without any complaints

wow is this really happening,so many problems :c and he's the creator man,i think he knows what he's doing imo

Kaoru wrote:

Wishy: we care because it is the official and accepted ranking system. TP is incomplete as well because the API does not allow it to calculate scores beyond the top 50.

Accepted? Some randoms accept it, anyone who actually knows a little bit about the game follows TP.

I don't mean to offend you, but you need to understand this. Most newbies/casuals don't really notice small changes, aren't really up to date with news/upcoming stuff, they don't even know how the ranking system works and probably don't really care that much. Some of us old/very old timers play because of osu!'s gameplay, not because what you are doing to the game/changing. Damn I could be playing your osu! release from 2/3 years ago and I wouldn't really care to be honest because the game hasn't changed AT ALL, it is the very exact same thing it always was, chase the dots, follow the longer dots and spin on spinners. High level players use osu!tp because pp is a joke. Non-competitive players don't care, etc, I could go on with this topic for ages.

Point is no matter what "direction" you want to take the game towards to, most people won't really give a shit about what you do, because it doesn't matter. This is an answer to the faith thing, why didn't you quit yet, etc.

Again I don't mean to offend you.

Trash Boat wrote:

nice discussion, i never saw peppy that active. the only thing i can say is that peppy is a human, like all in this site. he can't do magic or miracles, but he brought us an awesome game. imperfect but awesome. he has the right to take his time to fix any issues he may find without any complaints

Peppy has the right to do whatever the hell he wants but as long as people are buying Osu! supporter and peppy plans to develop Osu! as a living he should keep the ranking system working and fix bugged elements of the game in a timely matter. Making Osu! isn't peppy's hobby while he works full-time for a major company and he isn't a saint for making a free game without ads. Osu! is just a regular competitive games and if he doesn't want all the competitors to quit he should worry less about removing posts and fix his game as fast as possible.

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

Wishy wrote:

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

It's still a hobby to me?

Wishy wrote:

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

I believe I can almost quote him when he said something along the lines of "Osu! isn't just a hobby anymore" he did in fact say he quit his job to work full time on Osu! But I mean by definition, it's still his hobby.

Peppy, I'm just going to point out, regardless of what direction you plan to take this in, your current actions and attitude about the situation are the problem.

Telling people who play the game competitively to "just play for fun" is a huge insult, and I'm pretty sure you realize this, but the only reason osu! can be as successful as it is is because of the competitive nature of the game. Without overall ranking or leaderboards, most people would put maybe a few thousand plays into the game. When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.

Another thing is, while you keep saying "calm down, it's not complete, I'm still making changes", every single iteration of ppv2 I've seen so far is just as bad as all of the others in my opinion. I have not seen any changes in what I would consider a positive direction, so I'm very wary of where you might be heading with this. It's always better to throw out the criticism early while changes can be made, then let it fall to deaf ears too late (although, some would say the criticism is falling on deaf ears anyways). Some people are definitely getting way too upset way too soon, however there is nothing wrong with being vocal about the changes. If you make something public, it's public - even if it's in testing mode, people will give the feedback to help steer it in a positive direction, and you should listen to and accept that feedback without just dismissing it by saying "it's not complete"

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

Wishy wrote:

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

I mean, he probably does code Osu in his free time for pleasure - making it a hobby technically :/ Basketball players play basketball as a hobby and a job, no?

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be my guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Myke B wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

I mean, he probably does code Osu in his free time for pleasure - making it a hobby technically :/ Basketball players play basketball as a hobby and a job, no?

^ This.

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be me guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Calm down. People will barely get used to changed instantly. Be a bit more patient with them.

Actually I like how this discussion goes but considering that the competitive gameplay should be focussed on tournament-like gameplay, the new pp is having a different direction, focussing more on the "gaining feedback when succeeding on a map" and less in measuring the skill of a player.
Player skill has various layers and it's hard to be summed up in a value, even Tom's metrics has it's flaws. It might measure the skill of each player quite good, but it's incapable to work for the broad mass of the players (the average Hard players, the Insane players who do not arrive in the top of the ladderboards).

Considering the general idea of the ppv2, it seems to allow to be farmable way more. In ppv1, farming it was like "circumventing it's purpose" and "misdirecting the measurement by fooling it". In ppv2, it seems like people are supposed to be rewarded to single successes. It tends to be more like the Ranked-Score we had in the past, but tbh the Ranked Score kept people way better here (grinding stuff is always attractive to an extend). We all know that this isnt measuring the SKILL of a player appropriately, but that's not even the point of the system.

I can understand that the top-tier players really do not want to have farmers above pro players. Absolutely understandable. But a ranking system is always like walking a tightrope. For me and many other average players, who can not highrank on Insanes (or do not even want to try it - like me), they don't feel any gain, no matter how much they improve (considering that for my side, I can play a lot of intense shit but my ranking was not moving at all). I know that my skill might not have been improved a lot, but I need some gainful feedback to keep me playing it. I need the progress, and many others do. And many others loved it (during Ranked Score). Ppv2 is doing the same with limiting the farmability a bit. It considers difficulty more. Not only the hitobjects amount and achieveable highest combo.

I also want to mention that the current rankings are like "not done" yet, it seems. It's weird to draw conclusions right now.

For the competitive gameplay, the ranking charts are a good chance here. Unfortunately they are quite dead and unrewarding right now (not offering enough e-pencil it seems). But I am working on resurrecting this. And hopefully we can go into new directions here - and stop drowning in the sober of a seemingly broken ranking system that is prolly just misunderstood.

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be my guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

To be 100% honest, I more concerned with how long the "final" product will take. Because once it's done, then we can tell you what we do or don't like, and the reply won't be "it's not done". Just my opinion, but I really do thank you Peppy for being active in the post.

Loctav wrote:

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be me guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Calm down. People will barely get used to changed instantly. Be a bit more patient with them.

Actually I like how this discussion goes but considering that the competitive gameplay should be focussed on tournament-like gameplay, the new pp is having a different direction, focussing more on the "gaining feedback when succeeding on a map" and less in measuring the skill of a player.
Player skill has various layers and it's hard to be summed up in a value, even Tom's metrics has it's flaws. It might measure the skill of each player quite good, but it's incapable to work for the broad mass of the players (the average Hard players, the Insane players who do not arrive in the top of the ladderboards).

Considering the general idea of the ppv2, it seems to allow to be farmable way more. In ppv1, farming it was like "circumventing it's purpose" and "misdirecting the measurement by fooling it". In ppv2, it seems like people are supposed to be rewarded to single successes. It tends to be more like the Ranked-Score we had in the past, but tbh the Ranked Score kept people way better here (grinding stuff is always attractive to an extend). We all know that this isnt measuring the SKILL of a player appropriately, but that's not even the point of the system.

I can understand that the top-tier players really do not want to have farmers above pro players. Absolutely understandable. But a ranking system is always like walking a tightrope. For me and many other average players, who can not highrank on Insanes (or do not even want to try it - like me), they don't feel any gain, no matter how much they improve (considering that for my side, I can play a lot of intense shit but my ranking was not moving at all). I know that my skill might not have been improved a lot, but I need some gainful feedback to keep me playing it. I need the progress, and many others do. And many others loved it (during Ranked Score). Ppv2 is doing the same with limiting the farmability a bit. It considers difficulty more. Not only the hitobjects amount and achieveable highest combo.

I also want to mention that the current rankings are like "not done" yet, it seems. It's weird to draw conclusions right now.

For the competitive gameplay, the ranking charts are a good chance here. Unfortunately they are quite dead and unrewarding right now (not offering enough e-pencil it seems). But I am working on resurrecting this. And hopefully we can go into new directions here - and stop drowning in the sober of a seemingly broken ranking system that is prolly just misunderstood.

I felt like adding more than the top 500 was a decent addition for the "average hard players" I mean, they should feel a gain, but they can't expect to make much of gain casually playing hard maps :/

Myke B wrote:

To be 100% honest, I more concerned with how long the "final" product will take. Because once it's done, then we can tell you what we do or don't like, and the reply won't be "it's not done". Just my opinion, but I really do thank you Peppy for being active in the post.

Expanding on this I feel like maybe its the uncertainty which is rustling everyone jimmies; People feel like they've lost something and want to know how to get it back but can't because a ranking system isn't even being implemented right now. I'm sure that once ppv2 has been released and refined it will be okay.

The numbers tha you saw briefly weren't calculated. The processor wasn't running. I was migrating across to another branch and let v2 display briefly, before realizing it was horribly broken. Please do not base any feedback on what you may have seen. It was honestly giving maps weifhtings OPPOSITE to what it should have. As in easy would get you much more than insane+.

If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to challenge my decision to remove pp while it is fixed. The reason I did this in the first place was because of the number of complaints about pp not updating. I still feel the decision to hide it is best for now.

I reworded my announcement not as some accused – to change my actions – but to present what I am currently doing in a way that will cause less speculation and calm people until I'm ready to complete the equation. Please give me a week to finish this off.

Peppy, I think you should return pp for now that way players have an objective to play for in the interim. Playing without ranks would make the game very lackluster for some of us, and returning pp would enable anyone who cares about it to enjoy it until it is replaced. If you want to appease the players who are complaining about an official system not updating, maybe you could outsource ppv1 and do something similar to tp with it. Or make another sort of disclaimer about it being truncated and not working as intended, so that people know that it's not updating properly.

Thats great! By confirming that the numbers people saw weren't final and were actually extremely broken, this will calm down the masses and lull them into a nice, comfortable sleep with a circular pillow filled with feathers from a peacock.

Kaoru wrote:

Peppy, I think you should return pp for now that way players have an objective to play for in the interim. Playing without ranks would make the game very lackluster for some of us, and returning pp would enable anyone who cares about it to enjoy it until it is replaced. If you want to appease the players who are complaining about an official system not updating, maybe you could outsource ppv1 and do something similar to tp with it. Or make another sort of disclaimer about it being truncated and not working as intended, so that people know that it's not updating properly.

he already said he disabled it so you will forget about your old rank

As rankings will be changing substantially, keeping the old visible is pointless. It will not return until I have completed updates. Maybe take a week break?

peppy wrote:

The numbers tha you saw briefly weren't calculated. The processor wasn't running. I was migrating across to another branch and let v2 display briefly, before realizing it was horribly broken. Please do not base any feedback on what you may have seen. It was honestly giving maps weifhtings OPPOSITE to what it should have. As in easy would get you much more than insane+.

This would have been really nice to know, and would have prevented a lot of the freak-outs. I also think that PPv1 should remain instead of nothing, but with a disclaimer about the new maps not updating PP. I know it would be "pointless" as you said, but it's not for some of us :/ Constantly updating the Performance post would be extremely nice, because most of all, we just want to be in loop.

Question then: If you replace ppv1 in favor of a later version of ppv2, would it be possible to outsource the ranking system elsewhere, or keep a token of our old rank on our profiles somehow?

Kaoru wrote:

Question then: If you replace ppv1 in favor of a later version of ppv2, would it be possible to outsource the ranking system elsewhere, or keep a token of our old rank on our profiles somehow?

Seems extremely pointless imo. Just keep using TP until the updated version of V2 arrives.

No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!

Having a rank is not superficial to me. Knowing where you place in a crowd and seeing yourself improve in more than one way is comforting. For someone like myself who has very little to be proud of in this lifetime, In a very short period I have grown to appreciate my progress in this game. Progress which has been validated by a rank. This game would still be fun without it, but that feeling you get when your score rating comes up at the end of a map makes all the trouble worth it. I'd be playing without that happy realization that my score meant something in the end. Even if the fact that it would go away in two weeks makes it invalid, in that context, I would still rather it be there until the new product is ready for a live test. Having nothing at all just feels empty.

And unlike the 3k or so plays that the people who are pro this change have, In 5 months I've played nearly 20k plays. Im part of the community of people who sink their time into this game, and actively seek to improve and enjoy to watch their own improvement.. and I believe that we should not be dismissed.

peppy wrote:

No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!

Is a week the ETA for ranking being back up (and hopefully more towards what you meant for in the first place)?

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

Myke B wrote:

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

I did not even read the thread i am just talking out of my ass like your average retard.

Wishy wrote:

it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Pretty much this, you guys should be grateful that system is not working anymore.