Uh, lemme join up the above discussion.

How are you going to judge?

This is very difficult. You may think this is easy but it's actually going to be very hard to "judge." People look at modding very differently. Just look at all the mapping styles out there. One person might think "this is the best mod post ever" while another might completely disagree. You're going to have to work out how people judge right off the bat or else you will have some serious arguments later on.

I propose that we have each one of the top 50 modders that month to provide a link to their best modding post(s) (not sure if it is better to have 1 post or a few) that month for evaluation.

I agree with Minelli. Check all of his/her modding posts.

Most of the BATs, GMTs, and well-known modders on the team will probably be on the 50 list (only a problem if your team of judges is small)

I don't want to take away the privilege from being The Modder Of The Month to a judge. So, if a Judge gets to be at the top 50 Monthly Kudosu list, It will get graded by a secondary Judge that most likely doesn't mod. This can be a GMT.

Your BATs and GMTs won't be a problem. Look at your BAT rankings now, they won't be taking many spots, there is no issue. Why would you want someone to be graded by another individual who doesn't really mod? That's like asking a psychiatrist to operate on your kidney. I'll pass. I don't think BATs/GMTs/Judges/Whatever being on your Top 50 Modders of the Month list will be an issue anyway seeing there won't be many of them at all. And if it's motivating them to mod more, then why not? Besides if they're already modding then why shouldn't they be on this list?

Besides those problems, it might be nice to add a forum to talk about these mod posts, since the judges might want to discuss them and these mod posts are a great example for new (and veteran) modders to follow.

Well, there's #mod but that's mostly just a place to set an idle message on to spam your map, but whatever it's #mod it works. Another forum is fine though there's nothing wrong that I could see with this point.

But Minelli, I'll have to go back to my first point about how people mod differently. I don't think you should let one BAT make up the guidelines on how people should be judging/modding. It won't work. I believe people should mod however they like and try to improve overtime in their own way. It's a matter of experience, and experience cannot be taught by one thread. If you wan to mod effectively, then you have to start today and keep it up for the next while. However, general guidelines are fine and yes negativity should be avoided.

Feel free to tl;dr.

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We will base our judgement based on the criteria previously mentioned.

Not everyone mods alike Mystearica, but there are those who mod better.

We will give the best modder the title.

If a forum thread can help modders by giving a basic guideline on how to improve their modding skill, I dont find it wrong at all.

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Wojjan wrote:

So we'll have people modding modding?
That is so weird.

agreed

Wojjan wrote:

So we'll have people modding modding?
That is so weird.

And seems to me like this time woud be better spent on actual modding of maps...

Gemi wrote:

Wojjan wrote:

So we'll have people modding modding?
That is so weird.

And seems to me like this time woud be better spent on actual modding of maps...

Yes... and there is A LOT more modding posts than maps.

This is an extra feature to incentive modders to mod more / become better modders.

If you have any strong arguement against this feature, please let me know.

Otherwise, lets continue with it.

Sir Minelli wrote:

This is an extra feature to incentive modders to mod more / become better modders.

If you have any strong arguement against this feature, please let me know.

Otherwise, lets continue with it.

i'm not against this thing of modder of the month, i just think the method you planted isn't solid.... just think about the problem right now with the beatmaps that don't get mod.... modders (no BAT) mods just for kudosu, i'm mean with this, modding a beatmap isn't fun, i think modding moderations is masochistic xD

If you guys are masochistic, then go ahead.... i'm not against that xD

I'm against this idea for several reasons:

- Modding modders seems like a waste of time to be honest, with less time devoted to modding maps and more time devoted to judging who is the best modder. [As has been stated above]

- No judge can never be totally impartial, and again its wasting time that could be spent modding.

- The kudosu system is meant to be an incentive for modders to mod, another title wouldn't change the amount of modding that is already taking place.

An alternative I think would just be to have weekly (not monthly) kudosu rankings and nothing more. That would be incentive enough and it would help map makers find modders.

Now that I think about it, a kudosu ranking of the month would be enough and would be similar to this. Heck, add a "top kudosu earner of the week/month" and multiple times, and you have a much better incentive than this.

As stated earlier you would be better off modding maps. Incentive? It won't do much; okay, so one person can get an award once a month. It's not going to do much to inspire. Why?

The only people who would be interested in this would be the ones who are already modding frequently! The probability of winning the award is very low, and since most people will believe that a BAT or someone that already mods frequently will win, they won't bother.

All the time and effort that would be used to do this... the judges would have to already be capable of modding anyways. What if they *gasp* modded maps which would help, instead of doing something that won't serve as a good incentive and be very time-consuming?

Now kudosu, that's measurable, and would be throughout the month. That means that if you care, you know how much you need to mod.

Summary: This whole thing is counterproductive; it'll waste time that could be spent modding while not making the incentive you are going for. Just have a monthly kudosu chart and a badge for that; since it's measurable and you know if you can get it or not, it's much better incentive while, once it's up, it won't waste time that could be spent modding maps instead of modding mods, and maps are what need modding.

I mean, it would work for like a month. Then modders wouldn't really care, and it just would be extremely counterproductive, if you're trying to create an incentive.

Lizbeth wrote:

Or another idea will be, an option, also enable after giving kudos, to Rate each moderations ( maybe 1-5 ). The user with higher rate will earn the badge.
Also the rate should be secret to prevent any troubles between users.

Ekaru wrote:

a kudosu ranking of the month would be enough and would be similar to this. Heck, add a "top kudosu earner of the week/month" and multiple times, and you have a much better incentive than this.

these are better ways, imo

Lissette wrote:

Lizbeth wrote:

Or another idea will be, an option, also enable after giving kudos, to Rate each moderations ( maybe 1-5 ). The user with higher rate will earn the badge.
Also the rate should be secret to prevent any troubles between users.

Ekaru wrote:

a kudosu ranking of the month would be enough and would be similar to this. Heck, add a "top kudosu earner of the week/month" and multiple times, and you have a much better incentive than this.

these are better ways, imo

No.

"top kudosu earner of the week/month" will not work.

One can recieve kudosu for only checking a map 1 second and saying: Oh, I would rather use a blue color, instead of a green color for the beats... and poof! kudosu for him.

The voting system either. You can vote 5 to a friend of yours, and 1 to someone you hate but that made an excelent mod.

No, this wont work.

And I'm sick of hearing "modders modding"

We will not mod but judge how did you mod.

The best modder gets the award, simple as that.

If you guys think that this will be "omg time consuming" well then you guys are wrong.

How much does it take for someone to read some mods and judge some of the top 50 kudosu earners? an hour per month?

Omg, he consumed all of his life time doing so right?

This feature has nothing to do with "Modding" and you can't say that it wont help, because it will.

Might not help as much as you think it should, but so what? Will it bring pain? no. Will it bring happiness? yes. (At least that's what I hope)

I agree with Minelli, this wouldn't be so time-consuming as you guys say. It shouldn't take long, at least. I am sure it will be easier than what you all think.
I don't see a critical, if any, flaw in the system planning here (after reading through the whole topic). Myself, I'd battle for the award/badge in my profile, since I am sure I can win. <3

Gemi wrote:

And seems to me like this time woud be better spent on actual modding of maps...

Quoted for truth.

It's a very nice idea I must say, but I don't think it could be implemented with fair success. I think it'd become either a popularity contest between modders or take too much effort, among other flaws. I agree it would probably cause a small, perhaps bigger than that, increase in modding, but I don't know if it's worth it. Too many opinions would be flying around. There's a decent chance of immaturity ruining things, or bad relations stemming from this. (Not to say there aren't quite a few positive results/outcomes, but I'm fairly sure the negatives outweight the positives.)

In all honesty, an award would be nice, but it wouldn't motivate me. I mod to earn people's respect as having tried to help them, and to learn to do a better job modding. Those two things are more than enough incentive to me. An award isn't much of an incentive, nor is kudosu.

I think the 'Top Modders' should be above things like modding for an award, and knowing that they helped people should be enough of a reward for them. The respect of the community is worth more than a silly profile badge in my opinion.

While the kudosu system isn't perfect for motivating people to mod, as some people abuse it and the star/priority system - I don't think adding achievements would help much.

Shinde wrote:

I agree it would probably cause a small, perhaps bigger than that, increase in modding

I think this would cause a decrease in modding as people spend their time going through mod posts and trying to decide who was the best modder instead of actually modding songs.

Gemi wrote:

Shinde wrote:

I agree it would probably cause a small, perhaps bigger than that, increase in modding

I think this would cause a decrease in modding as people spend their time going through mod posts and trying to decide who was the best modder instead of actually modding songs.

Gemi: Did you actually read the whole thread?

No offense, but only a few judges will be doing this... ONCE per month and will not be much of a time consuming work at all.

I highly doubt that this will cause a decrease in modding.

Also, some users that post here say that the "negatives" about this idea will be higher than the "positives"

But no one has actually listed the negative aspects. Do I smell jealousy?

Number of Kudosu is not always the best indicator for knowing whos the best modder. In most cases it is NOT.
That is why monthly the top 50 kudosu earners will be listed in a chart.

From here, judges will read their posts and will know who modded the best.


I don't find anything wrong with this feature at all, you are making things look a bit more complicated than they really are.

One serious flaw with the judging system is that it is difficult to tell how good a mod is without actually looking at the changes suggested in the map itself. There could a 50 line detailed mod that just didn't give very good advice, or there could be a quick, simple 5 line mod that was very useful. There is no way of really knowing how effective the mod was unless:
a) you checked the suggested changes yourself, or
b) the mapper posted which changes they did or didn't make, which only a handful of mappers do anyway, and even so it's not like mappers actually go into any detail about how useful the modder's mod was.
EDIT: Also, how would you propose a judging system would handle IRC modding? The only way of handling this in my mind would be do have users actually PM or post their IRC mod logs. Does anyone really want all that hassle?

Personally I am in favour of deciding modder of the month by kudosu. It's measurable and non-debatable; the proposed judging system just seems way too subjective. Sure you can get kudosu by suggesting a new combo or two, but if that's all the modder could find and the mapper found it useful, isn't that all that matters?

Deciding by kudosu I believe will also push people to mod more since there would be a live scoreboard (the monthly kudosu charts). People will be much more motivated to see their username climb the kudosu ranking charts than they would if there was no gauge to tell how well they are doing.

Modding modders seems like a waste of time to be honest, with less time devoted to modding maps and more time devoted to judging who is the best modder. [As has been stated above]

As has been previously stated, only a select few judges will be doing the 'mod modding', and only during a specific time of the month. This would have such a small impact on the overall mapping/modding community that I'm quite positive it'd fail to be noticed.

No judge can never be totally impartial, and again its wasting time that could be spent modding.

A valid point, but that's what a number of Judges is for. This helps to balance things out to keep things fair for everyone

I think the 'Top Modders' should be above things like modding for an award

The 'Top Modders' perspective on modding will change just because of this award? I don't think so. I think they'll continue to mod with contribution to the osu community as higher motivation than this award. But certain things motivate certain people. The current 'Top Modders' are people who freely contribute to the community for little more than the thanks they recieve from the mapper. If this award will motivate people who aren't motivated by community involvement, as it will, then it is well worth having.

EDIT: Responded via PM, and I can make this much shorter so I will.

Just have both Modder of the Month and Top Kudosu Earner; that way, if this doesn't work out, you'll at least have Top Kudosu Earner for motivation, since it can't fail due to non-committed judges or mass whining.

Seems like a good idea, no?

Sir Minelli wrote:

No offense, but only a few judges will be doing this... ONCE per month and will not be much of a time consuming work at all.

The people who you'll likely get to this job are those who would otherwise be modding. Also, if you want a fair system you need to go through a LOT(ie. all of them for those with high amounts of mod posts) of mod posts and check how good t
hey are, to be able to judge who is the best modder. You tell me this takes only little time and I laugh.

Sir Minelli wrote:

But no one has actually listed the negative aspects. Do I smell jealousy?

Lol?

Sir Minelli wrote:

Number of Kudosu is not always the best indicator for knowing whos the best modder. In most cases it is NOT.
That is why monthly the top 50 kudosu earners will be listed in a chart.

From here, judges will read their posts and will know who modded the best.

Do you realize how many posts you'll have to read through? 50 users and a few dozen posts from each, that makes hundreds of posts to rad. That's not a quick task.

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Sir Minelli wrote:

4 .- Try to avoid only "suggestion mod posts" Try to find actual mistakes and post them.
If you only suggest something and get a kudosu, it might get denied.

Don't agree with this. Modding isn't just about finding mistakes, it's about making maps better. If the mapper took the suggestion, then the modder has helped improve the map, and deserves a kudosu.

0_o wrote:

Sir Minelli wrote:

4 .- Try to avoid only "suggestion mod posts" Try to find actual mistakes and post them.
If you only suggest something and get a kudosu, it might get denied.

Don't agree with this. Modding isn't just about finding mistakes, it's about making maps better. If the mapper took the suggestion, then the modder has helped improve the map, and deserves a kudosu.

As I said... try to avoid only suggestion posts.

Now with bold.

Yeah I noticed the only. What's wrong with suggestion posts? Kudosu is supposed to be given if the post is useful, so if someone gave the mapper a couple of useful suggestions why shouldn't they receive kudos?

Faceman my friend,

The abuse... that's what I'm talking about... maybe I should type that word there.

Doing so now.

Edit: Done.

*waiting for more comments*

gotcha

0_o wrote:

gotcha

Thank you GOD.

i guess this system is less time consuming, and more reasonable. And decrease the abuse on getting kudos NO matter what...

Ok guys so let me know your opinions about this to see if we make it happen <3

Aaah, actually, this system looks better. I'd say some opinions/replies to other posts, but let's just keep it like this.

Well, anyway, I can't wait to see those people who have +5 medals of this. Ahaha~ (I don't want to get to the "Jealousy" part again though)

I could picture myself turning into a modding machine when this starts (maybe)

/me approves

support, this system is better

Your new idea for the system sounds pretty much how I imagined it should be. (b`.`)b

I support this system it sounds much less time consuming and better just a few questions regarding the denial of kudosu:

4 .- Try to avoid only "suggestion mod posts" Try to find actual mistakes and post them.
If you only suggest something and get a kudosu, it might get denied.
It is correct to give suggestions once in a while, but do not abuse these type of posts for your own benefit.

What if the maps modded have very little or no mistakes in them? If you modded 10 maps in a row with no mistakes and posted suggestions would that count as abuse? I think this needs to be specified a little more clearly because "abuse" and "suggestion" are subjective to both the modder and the person who judges the posts.

6 .- Making a difficulty for a particular beatmap is not a reason for obtaining kudosu anymore. It will get denied.

Should this be denied outright? Surely receiving one kudosu for helping create a difficulty isn't such a bad thing, and if there is 1 difficulty by the mapper and 1 guest difficulty surely it is helping because otherwise the map couldn't be ranked? Of course if this was abused it would be a bad thing, but the rules could be specified.

Other than that I think this system will have a positive affect.

Shulin wrote:

4 .- Try to avoid only "suggestion mod posts" Try to find actual mistakes and post them.
If you only suggest something and get a kudosu, it might get denied.
It is correct to give suggestions once in a while, but do not abuse these type of posts for your own benefit.

Shulin wrote:

What if the maps modded have very little or no mistakes in them? If you modded 10 maps in a row with no mistakes and posted suggestions would that count as abuse? I think this needs to be specified a little more clearly because "abuse" and "suggestion" are subjective to both the modder and the person who judges the posts.

Shulin, it is very unlikely that you mod 10 maps in a row and give only suggestions without finding any possible mistakes.
By Abusing this system, I refer to modding only maps that are bubbled / about to get ranked, posting a single suggestion while skipping all the hard work, and recieving kudosu for it. Try to aim your moddings to maps that are in the need of a solid mod in order to avoid future missunderstandings.
It is easy to notice if you slacked or not.
If you modded the map, gave only one suggestion... the comes another modder and posts like 15 mistakes he found, then you are doing it wrong.

6 .- Making a difficulty for a particular beatmap is not a reason for obtaining kudosu anymore. It will get denied.

Shulin wrote:

Should this be denied outright? Surely receiving one kudosu for helping create a difficulty isn't such a bad thing, and if there is 1 difficulty by the mapper and 1 guest difficulty surely it is helping because otherwise the map couldn't be ranked? Of course if this was abused it would be a bad thing, but the rules could be specified.

It is already being denied to everyone else.
You will already have your difficulty ranked for everyone else to play. That should be enough.
I have recieved already like 5+ difficulties for some of my maps and I never gave kudosu because the first time I did, a BAT denied it.

Shulin wrote:

Other than that I think this system will have a positive affect.

I hope you got me this time.

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Reminder for peppy.

Go!

I think that "Maps always have mistakes, even after they are ranked."