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Getting Finger-Tied

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karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak

Soarezi wrote:

Alternating everything affects the later game, your stamina will become incredibly horrible, you can't stream for long and you cannot compete with the end game anymore.
That isn't true at all. Alternating actually increases your overall streaming stamina in comparison to single tapping everything, as a single tapper won't be as used to using their alternate finger.

On topic however, those kind of patterns are easiest to hit by just doing z -> x or x -> z instead of trying to hit them with a single key. Practice doing them that way and eventually you wont have issue with them.
Soarezi
Soarezi
I haven't seen a single person that alternates, that can stream 260bpm+- and can keep up with freedom dive streams as in stamina.

Then again we're talking about standard, not taiko.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Tasha wrote:

That isn't true at all. Alternating actually increases your overall streaming stamina in comparison to single tapping everything, as a single tapper won't be as used to using their alternate finger.
That isn't true at all for normal play. Alternating can still be viable... I'm not completely anti... but your "alternating finger" for a single-tapper does not get used often except for streams. Full alternating does not require good stamina, because neither finger is used full-time at all. Full-alternating does not have high stamina requirements.

Stamina is obtained through playing things which require better stamina, and you adapt. Single-tapping with the same finger over and over is actually a serious stamina drain by comparison and lets you build a lot more stamina in a single-finger than alternating would give you, because you use that finger more often, in shorter time spans, for longer. I don't know why, but I do feel that stamina is not a per-finger basis on the same hand, because your tendons are shared into the fore-arm. Getting one stronger will help the others.
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
You know what, not everyone can singletap like you. I happen to be one of those players who alternates EVERYTHING because it helps me keep the damn beat of the map I am playing a hell of a lot better than single tapping. not only that, but I happen to play on a laptop and I play the game just fine.

And oh, btw, nice copy, flip and paste avatar you got there, like I haven't seen that before. :roll:
Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
judging people by their written stats

lol
VIDgamefrk9
56 posts
Joined September 2010
VIDgamefrk9

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
Excuse me for having a <99% accuracy because I am not a machine. I just got a tablet and I am getting used to it. Please understand that not everyone can be like Cookiezi and get SS on practically everything. Keep in mind that I don't play every day, so my accuracy may not be the best.
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
You know what, not everyone can singletap like you. I happen to be one of those players who alternates EVERYTHING because it helps me keep the damn beat of the map I am playing a hell of a lot better than single tapping. not only that, but I happen to play on a laptop and I play the game just fine.

And oh, btw, nice copy, flip and paste avatar you got there, like I haven't seen that before. :roll:
Rock on. I alternate by preference on everything. :D

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
Nice 20k rank you have there, buddy.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
can you show me the studies that prove this?
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Learn both alternate and single tapping, then just do whichever feels comfortable in a situation.
Me168
152 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Me168

silmarilen wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
can you show me the studies that prove this?

silmarilen wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
can you show me the studies that prove this?

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
Excuse me for having a <99% accuracy because I am not a machine. I just got a tablet and I am getting used to it. Please understand that not everyone can be like Cookiezi and get SS on practically everything. Keep in mind that I don't play every day, so my accuracy may not be the best.

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...

Soarezi wrote:

I haven't seen a single person that alternates, that can stream 260bpm+- and can keep up with freedom dive streams as in stamina.

Then again we're talking about standard, not taiko.

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

You are just trying to get an emotional response out of me. Nice try, but I play using tablet, and I don't smash my keyboard. you have probably broke keys using your "singletapping". Please be respectful as everyone plays the game their own way. If you don't like my playstyle, then complain about it on an offtopic thread please. I do not come on the forums to be trolled and I wish for none of this treatment

GoldenWolf wrote:

I don't know who is who anymore

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
You know what, not everyone can singletap like you. I happen to be one of those players who alternates EVERYTHING because it helps me keep the damn beat of the map I am playing a hell of a lot better than single tapping. not only that, but I happen to play on a laptop and I play the game just fine.

And oh, btw, nice copy, flip and paste avatar you got there, like I haven't seen that before. :roll:

I love how I tried to make an Innocent post asking for Playing Advice for a Tricky Beat Pattern for myself and it all went to hell
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

Me168 wrote:

I love how I tried to make an Innocent post asking for Playing Advice for a Tricky Beat Pattern for myself and it all went to hell
Everyone is bound to make a thread like that at some point.
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder

VIDgamefrk9 wrote:

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
Excuse me for having a <99% accuracy because I am not a machine. I just got a tablet and I am getting used to it. Please understand that not everyone can be like Cookiezi and get SS on practically everything. Keep in mind that I don't play every day, so my accuracy may not be the best.
You're making the fatal assumption I'm actually a good player.

buny wrote:

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
judging people by their written stats

lol
Because numbers

dkun wrote:

...

WolfCoder wrote:

Says the player with 87.89% accuracy...
Nice 20k rank you have there, buddy.
Nice 95% accuracy there, buddy.

(I don't doubt that there are top 10k players who always alternate and have at least 97% accuracy though, I'm just being silly here since we devolved into stat quoting since the last page)
brendanuhs
66 posts
Joined November 2012
brendanuhs
every osu! thread eventually devolves to:
1) Mouse v Tablet
2) Alternating v SingleTapping
3) huehuehue play scarlet rose
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder
You forgot Full Area v. Small Area and Red v. Black switches.
Soarezi
Soarezi

silmarilen wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

i have no c lue what you're on about. all im saying is alternating makes you worse and it does. scientifically and mathematically calculated.
can you show me the studies that prove this?
all top players singletap, hhhhhh
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

WolfCoder wrote:

(I don't doubt that there are top 10k players who always alternate and have at least 97% accuracy though, I'm just being silly here since we devolved into stat quoting since the last page)
The accuracy shown on your userpage means absolutely nothing about your actual accuracy. I actually have no idea where the concept of "alternating reduces accuracy" came from but I'm pretty sure there is no reason alternating would reduce your accuracy.
Talinoth
59 posts
Joined September 2013
Talinoth
This thread is so silly, I don't even.

Anyway, [sarcasm] clearly I'm superior to everybody else in this game because not only do I not alternate, I don't even single tap with the keyboard - I use one mouse button only. Best player ever, bow down before me and my 94% accuracy and #130k rank [/end sarcasm].

Seriously though, I've read some of the posts in this thread, thought about them, read them again, and they still don't make sense. Why would alternating reduce your accuracy? If you want to be the best at Osu, surely at some point you'll be forced to do the high bpm streams on maps like Freedom Dive - where, (I imagine), you'll have no choice but to alternate.

All I see happening if you single tap the whole way through your Osu lifetime, is that you'll have one superbly buff finger mashing your Z key, and one puny underdeveloped finger on your X key. One finger will have amazing stamina, the other won't, your hand will look and feel wonky, and in situations where you more or less HAVE to alternate you won't do it as well as people who have been practicing it for ages already.

Although, I wouldn't actually know - it's all conjecture on my part.

Someone please educate me.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

Talinoth wrote:

Seriously though, I've read some of the posts in this thread, thought about them, read them again, and they still don't make sense. Why would alternating reduce your accuracy? If you want to be the best at Osu, surely at some point you'll be forced to do the high bpm streams on maps like Freedom Dive - where, (I imagine), you'll have no choice but to alternate.
When people say alternating, they mean alternating everything not just streams. Of course even single tappers alternate streams (given they are too fast to maintain with one finger) but people seem to claim (without real evidence) that alternating things other than streams reduces accuracy for whatever reason.

Talinoth wrote:

All I see happening if you single tap the whole way through your Osu lifetime, is that you'll have one superbly buff finger mashing your Z key, and one puny underdeveloped finger on your X key. One finger will have amazing stamina, the other won't, your hand will look and feel wonky, and in situations where you more or less HAVE to alternate you won't do it as well as people who have been practicing it for ages already.
You'd think this but your secondary finger does not feel as far behind compared to your primary finger and single tapping does give you more stamina compared to alternating.
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder

Almost wrote:

...The accuracy shown on your userpage means absolutely nothing about your actual accuracy...
The accuracy shown on the userpage is the average accuracy you get when playing beatmaps. It will be lower than your real accuracy if: you play inaccurate on purpose for enough maps or you do not improve old scores. The second case goes away if you just play with improved accuracy for many more different beatmaps (as is the case with experienced players who have scores on thousands of beatmaps) thus saturating this metric much closer to your real accuracy. It can be too easy to have a high accuracy yet play lower difficulty beatmaps. Therefore, the only case in which this metric is accurate is if the player has a high rank (high ranked score) and has played many different beatmaps (high classic ranked score) and then the accurate metric will be.. accurate.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

WolfCoder wrote:

Almost wrote:

...The accuracy shown on your userpage means absolutely nothing about your actual accuracy...
The accuracy shown on the userpage is the average accuracy you get when playing beatmaps. It will be lower than your real accuracy if: you play inaccurate on purpose for enough maps or you do not improve old scores. The second case goes away if you just play with improved accuracy for many more different beatmaps (as is the case with experienced players who have scores on thousands of beatmaps) thus saturating this metric much closer to your real accuracy. It can be too easy to have a high accuracy yet play lower difficulty beatmaps. Therefore, the only case in which this metric is accurate is if the player has a high rank (high ranked score) and has played many different beatmaps (high classic ranked score) and then the accurate metric will be.. accurate.
No you are still wrong. The accuracy shown on the userpage shows your average accuracy on your pp giving maps. Songs that award a lot of pp are not necessarily difficult and you can easily gain a high pp rank and accuracy by playing easy maps (like myself). Even songs that are actually difficult may not even award much pp if any at all and thus would affect your accuracy a lot less. Then you also have to consider the way OD affects pp accuracy. For example, you may get some pp for an OD7 song that you SS'd and that would improve your accuracy score shown on your userpage by 0.01%, but when you play it again with HR and only get 97%, you would lose that accuracy you just received even though the difficulty in obtain both those accuracies are more or less equivalent.
RinMiku14
34 posts
Joined December 2010
RinMiku14
We went from someone asking advice on alternating, to another alternating v.s single tap war and now to a discussion about how accurate the accuracy in our pages is.
Can we please stop?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Alternating technically yields worse accuracy overall compared to single tap. Simply cause if you alternate everything, the time between hits is bigger and the margin for human error is bigger as well. Just check the unstable rates.
That aside its still possible to master it to that level so its really competitive.

As for stamina, the amount of training you do is all there is to it.
Though people still seem to think that speed is all there is to this game. Singletappers might struggle with low bpm streams just like alternating people might struggle with high bpm ones. Its pretty balanced when you think about it, but if you consider there are more lower bpm maps than higher, its actually a pretty viable choice for an average player.

As for those patterns in the op, in what way do you struggle? Do your fingers get confused so you dont know what to press or is it just a timing issue?
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

lolcubes wrote:

Alternating technically yields worse accuracy overall compared to single tap. Simply cause if you alternate everything, the time between hits is bigger and the margin for human error is bigger as well. Just check the unstable rates.
This doesn't make sense. Alternating should reduce the time between hits since you have a free finger that can tap whenever. If you single tap, you have to release the key and then re-hit it which increases time between hits. Human error shouldn't really apply greater for alternating if it feels more natural as well since you don't have to think before hitting your keyboard, you just do it. Also comparing unstable rates is silly because everyone has varying degrees of accuracy so it's just not possible.
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder

Almost wrote:

...The accuracy shown on the userpage shows your average accuracy on your pp giving maps...
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Accuracy

The reference page does mention there are two global accuracy metrics, one called "Overall Accuracy" and one called "PP Accuracy", but the one on each profile is just called "Hit Accuracy". It doesn't actually matter which one it actually is since "PP Accuracy" would be better. The PP system is full of bizarre anomalies, but it generally works. You can't actually hard-farm, there was already a point hard maps quit giving me pp (and if they did it was 1 or so points) so now I have to do insanes (barring anomalies like that one easy map that for some reason give 100+ pp, but you can see that in a particular profile if it occurs). Though I seem to be one of the few (or only other one besides peppy) who believed in the PP system.


It's possible to be razor-accurate by alternating or even doing more complex tap patterns. If it weren't, then from whence came the original song drummers' accuracy you hear in the songs you play through? When I agreed with Sorazei back there, I'll point out I was stating from personal experience. The idea that alternating or doing complex patterns or anything but single tapping is always less accurate is simply false.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Almost wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

Alternating technically yields worse accuracy overall compared to single tap. Simply cause if you alternate everything, the time between hits is bigger and the margin for human error is bigger as well. Just check the unstable rates.
This doesn't make sense.
He's making a point about the "break" time between single-tap vs alternate... i.e. liftin'
When lifting your finger by single-tapping between beats, it takes longer before you can press again, meaning the next hit has less chance of being early than if you were to alternate, where it is quite easy to press early (much earlier) by comparison.

But... having alternated in the past, I can assure you that someone who finds alternating "second nature" will not have this problem. They don't see it as "finger 1" and "finger 2." They just play, and their fingers do stuff, just as though the the only thought going through their head is the same as single-tapping, because it's natural for them. Don't make funny assumptions based on single-tapping ideology, it's all down to what you practiced the most.

The only point that I think has merit is that developing stamina is faster for single-tappers, and that is because of your forearm. That's where most of the work takes place and also where it burns when you get tired. Single-tapping places more strain on it (deathstreaming places the most) when tapping fast for a long time, which is not something that alternating players encounter, since the map slows down for them when the 1/2's come, giving them a break. But single-tappers have their main finger ploughing through the entire map just about, at a constant speed and this develops stamina by playing normally. Alternaters will have to train stamina on deathstreams to reach the same level, but they don't have to, most of the time.

There will always be problems adjusting to a non-primary style, but it is still much easier for single-tappers to alternate when necessary, and not so easy for alternaters to change to single-tap.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

WolfCoder wrote:

Almost wrote:
...The accuracy shown on the userpage shows your average accuracy on your pp giving maps...


http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Accuracy

The reference page does mention there are two global accuracy metrics, one called "Overall Accuracy" and one called "PP Accuracy", but the one on each profile is just called "Hit Accuracy". It doesn't actually matter which one it actually is since "PP Accuracy" would be better. The PP system is full of bizarre anomalies, but it generally works. You can't actually hard-farm, there was already a point hard maps quit giving me pp (and if they did it was 1 or so points) so now I have to do insanes (barring anomalies like that one easy map that for some reason give 100+ pp, but you can see that in a particular profile if it occurs). Though I seem to be one of the few (or only other one besides peppy) who believed in the PP system.
You're ranked 20k and stop getting pp from hards? I spent the last 3 days and this morning farming from about rank 160-100 and most of my pp came from hards. Hell, I don't think I played a single insane during that farming. Overall accuracy is based on your accuracy from all maps and it's shown when you finish a song and hit accuracy is just what pp accuracy is called. The pp system does not work at all which is why many players (and all top players) forgo it for the better alternative of tp.
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder
Osu TP is completely whack for me, there's only 4 random easy beatmaps in my scores list there and nothing else.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

WolfCoder wrote:

Osu TP is completely whack for me, there's only 4 random easy beatmaps in my scores list there and nothing else.
Because it can only process your top 50 scores, as it doesn't have access to the whole database.
Suave_old_1
27 posts
Joined April 2013
Suave_old_1
I can alt and single tap. Not much difference stamina wise.
Me168
152 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Me168

lolcubes wrote:

As for those patterns in the op, in what way do you struggle? Do your fingers get confused so you don't know what to press or is it just a timing issue?
When I start the pattern, I'm doing fine, getting 300's and whatnot, but after a longer period of time with the pattern it slowly descends into 50's and misses, So It might be a Timing, Stamina, or Endurance issue

As to the Single Tapping VS Alternating battle that needs to stop, I don't see benefits to knowing only one way of playing, Single Tap OR Alternating, because both are important in different situations. Like I had mentioned earlier, I do a weird cross of the two so that I have skill with doing either or at any given moment I want. Though I am a bit heavier on my Z key than the X key, I still do Alternating Often with some Single-Tapping elements to it.

It's weird to explain
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