marcostudios wrote:

it's accuracy based...

I agree

Standard Sliders shows 100s and at the end of each combo string, 50-50 Orange [300] or Green [100] Katsu (Katu) will show. And that affects accuracy, for sure.
Fake S occurs because of 100 (if I'm correct, since I forgot it 2 years ago).

If Slider Break will be treated as a miss, it's quite ridiculous. That's because EBA and OTO/2 treats them as CBs (Combo Breaks) and osu! is like that since the beginning until now. Implementing this would be a hard time for players to adjust.

It will break thousands current scores and will take huge re-code of the gameplay.

What's wrong with current system? Sliders plays completely differently, that's why you don't have miss on them.

I don't see any reason to change this.

OsuMe65 wrote:

Standard Sliders shows 100s and at the end of each combo string, 50-50 Orange [300] or Green [100] Katsu (Katu) will show. And that affects accuracy, for sure.
Fake S occurs because of 100 (if I'm correct, since I forgot it 2 years ago).

Read what Nathanael said, they explained the requirements for each rank.

OsuMe65 wrote:

If Slider Break will be treated as a miss, it's quite ridiculous. That's because EBA and OTO/2 treats them as CBs (Combo Breaks) and osu! is like that since the beginning until now. Implementing this would be a hard time for players to adjust.

You seem to misunderstand, what I'm requesting would not require any kind of adjustment. It wouldn't have any actual effect on the gameplay, it would only change sliderbreaks to be shown as Miss instead of 100, making Fake S disappear and the Ranking letter system more consistent.

Also, why would we stick to something bad just because it was done in previous games as well? Yes, osu! is based on them, but it isn't the same, and if we can improve stuff they did wrong, isn't that a good thing?

@Kodora: "huge re-code of the gameplay"? Can you even judge the effort of coding this would require? Also no, it wouldn't have any effect on the gameplay

Zarerion wrote:

Also no, it wouldn't have any effect on the gameplay

Except that it will take re-calculation of thousands scores what was taken for 6+ years of osu with new miss algorithm.

Why?

In order to fix confusing inconsistencies

An S is an S regardless of your combo, it is however not a "Full Combo" or as per the default skin, a "Perfect", if you did happen to break/miss a slidertick.

Combo and accuracy are separate matters and there's little reason to merge them.

Zarerion wrote:

In order to fix confusing inconsistencies

There is nothing "confusing" here. Unlike hitcircles, which requires only hitting at the correct time, sliders requires absolutely different option - hitting and holding to the end.

If you missed at the beginning, but still can hold slider to the end, you will receive fair 100 with combo break since you completed at least one option of slider

If you hit beginning correctly, but not hold it to the end, you will receive fair 100 without combo break since slider tail is passive hitobject and don't requires hitting.

If you barely follow sliderball, you will receive fair 50

If you missed everything here, you will receive fair miss.

That's how it works. Different hitobject should have different behaviour. Current game mechanics are perfectly fine.

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Actually, what Kodora said is correct. If you're going to change sliders to behave like hitcircles, then you'd also need to change spinners to be hit accurately when they're about to start (since you're going for "consistency" anyway) - that wouldn't make sense, would it? If you want, you can wait until the spinner is 75% complete and then spin like mad and still get a 50 (depending on the length of the spinner) and keep your combo. It's a different hitobject so it's calculated differently.

Also, are you going to tell me that 50s shouldn't cause you to get an A either because they're legitimate hits so a full combo should give you an S?

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wow this got bumped wat

this kinda left my range of cares i can give, but I still agree that an S shouldn't be granted when a player broke their combo midway

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41236 wrote:

Here the problem comes. It's impossible to tell between a true S and a fake S because sliderbreaks've always been counted together with those 100s and 50s. peppy didn't think too much on the gameplay when he made it, he also brought over those useless Geki and Katu from the DS games :<

I love how literally every single thing you said in this post is wrong.

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41236 wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I love how literally every single thing you said in this post is wrong.

You mean there's a way to tell them apart?

ok here goes

Here the problem comes.

It is not really a problem. Yes some people can get confused by why they got S even without combo, but everytime they have just asked #osu and got the answer really quickly. If your tired of seeing the same question as often as once per week then boohoo, they are talking about osu! the game in the channel #osu.
Then you say stuff like this:

What I wanna emphasize is that it should be changed from accuracy-based to score-based. Because osu! is different compared to other rhythm games where accuracy does big to your score.

It should be changed. An S should tell how GOOD you are instead of how ACCURATE you are compared to an A.

While in another thread people cry that this game focuses too much on combo and score, and scoreboards should be based on PP instead because it takes accuracy into account more and clearly that is the true measurement of how good you are. Make up your mind community. How about we dont change anything?

It's impossible to tell between a true S and a fake S

If you think S rank should be defined some other way, that does not make it a "fake S". If you get an S be happy that you got it, because you did not miss a single whole note. That is a good achievement and should be rewarded. And I give you a way to tell them apart: If you see that you that you have full combo, it means you got full combo. If you see that you dont have full combo, it means that you dont have full combo. Simple isn't it? Your combo is shown literally everywhere where your rank is. It should not be possible to ever get confused did you FC it or not.

because sliderbreaks've always been counted together with those 100s and 50s.

Yes and that is a good thing. If you dont compleatly miss every part of the note, you should get some of the reward. If you miss something, your combo should end.

peppy didn't think too much on the gameplay when he made it, he also brought over those useless Geki and Katu from the DS games :<

I have been playing really many rhythm games in my life, but since I started osu! I always praised the brilliance of the Geki and Katu feature, and talked with people from other communities how it should be implemented to the other games. Many games have something that is kinda similar, but the way its done in this game is just clearly the best. You randomly putting that last sentence there really rustled my jimmies and was the real reason I even made this lengthy post. It is just such a wrong thing to say.

i still dont even understand the geki and katu thing
for the longest time i thought they are just ends of combos

Zare wrote:

i still dont even understand the geki and katu thing
for the longest time i thought they are just ends of combos

shit like this is why 2014 is bad year for beatmaps

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Sea_Food wrote:

Zare wrote:

i still dont even understand the geki and katu thing
for the longest time i thought they are just ends of combos

shit like this is why 2014 is bad year for beatmaps

Uhh.




Okay?

I'd say make a new ranking letter
As it shows good accuracy+no misses, but no fc
If you want to change it to an A, I would hate everyone that promoted this, as yhen I'd have so less S's xD

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41236 wrote:

I came up with another thing since osu! can't detect slider breaks in old S scores:

S = Over 90% 300s, less than 1% 50s, no misses and over 99% max combo.
Every S with 99% or less than 99% max combo will be changed to an A. This would work better ^-^

This doesn't solve the "problem", despite me not believing the problem exists

There still will be fake S's and Fake A's for the cases where combo was not dropped and instead missing the ends of sliders results in a less than 99% accuracy combo.

Also how would you determine the maximum combo for the map since it is not a stored value within the map and with people playing on slow computers and 2b maps in existence simulating the map through auto (for combo count) is not a viable option.

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Could be, especially on HDHR plays on slider dense maps

41236 wrote:

I came up with another thing since osu! can't detect slider breaks in old S scores:

S = Over 90% 300s, less than 1% 50s, no misses and over 99% max combo.
Every S with 99% or less than 99% max combo will be changed to an A. This would work better ^-^

I'm fairly sure S is only given for 93% or higher. S was never meant to mean full combo, it was just meant to mean 93% or higher acc with no misses, which IMO is perfectly reasonable. A 100 on a slider, even one that doesn't break combo, or even a 50 on a slider, is still not a miss, so ofc the system should rightfully still give it an S, no matter how low your combo was out of the max. In some of the other game modes, you can even get 1 or 2 misses and still get an S.

Even if for some reason they decided that this was wrong, I highly doubt they would change all the previous scores to follow this new algorithm, like someone before said. Same reason they wouldn't make EZ mod actually make the game easier, since scores have been set with that mod, and doing that would change many previous scores.

Edit: Did some calculations out of curiosity, you need at least 93.333% accuracy to get an S, or 93.1667% accuracy to get an S with 1% 50s (Any more and it would make the S an A anyway). This obviously doesn't take sliders into an account, but you could get technically <90% accuracy and get an S with sliders coming into play.

What 41236 said about current requirements for S is correct, an S isn't related to your accuracy, it's linked to the relative amount of 300s and 50s you get (and whether or not you missed a note, obviously), look it up on the Wiki.

Actually I like their suggestion about having at least 99% of the full combo. It would allow for 10 sliderend misses on a >1000 combo map, which soudns fairly reasonable to me.

Also the argument "This would need so much recalculating and would take so much time and people would be pissed" is kinda dumb. Sometimes, to improve your game, you have to revise decisions you made in earlier stages. Obviously this would have a great impact, which is why the longer we hesitate, the worse it gets.

Zare wrote:

What 41236 said about current requirements for S is correct, an S isn't related to your accuracy, it's linked to the relative amount of 300s and 50s you get (and whether or not you missed a note, obviously), look it up on the Wiki.

I did the calculations. Disregarding sliders completely since with sliders you can get <90% accuracy and still get an S, lets say a map has 1000 circles, you need to get at least 900 300's (90% of 1000) Less than 10 50s (1% out of 1000) and no misses to get an S. Each 300 gives 100% acc, each 100 gives 33.333%, and each 50 gives 16.67%. 900x100 + 100x33.333 = 93333.333, then divide by 1000 to get average = 93.333% accuracy minimum to get an S with no 50s.

Even with the 10 50s, it's 900x100 + 90x33.333 + 10x16.67 = 93166.7 then divide by 100 = 93.1667% . Try replacing the base 1000 circles with any value and it still works out to the same values.

I don't even see this as something that should be highly prioritized. If you get a FC, then so be it. S ranks are based on accuracy, not if you FC'd or not. A better Feature Request would be to "Show if you've FC'd a song in song select" or something like that.

Zare wrote:

If you miss a sliderhead and break your combo, but FC the rest of the map wou will get an S, please change this, as an S really should only be given when you hit all of the objects, and if you miss a slider and still get an S it's just wrong.

wow i didnt know Zare used to be such a silly billy

totally unnecessary, S has never meant FC and i don't really see a reason why it should. and id be kind of annoyed of my second best top play became an A just because i missed the start of the very first slider on the map and ended up getting a -1 combo FC. See if that were a miss I'd expect to be penalized but sliders are just sliders.

The only tiny barely relevant problem with the way it is now is trying to separate Non-FC S ranks from FC S ranks when you have hundreds of them and are trying to fix old scores. But this seems like an extreme way to fix it

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Riince, if you missed the first sliderhead but FCd the rest you'd still have >99% of the FC which would still grant an S, assuming we went with 41236's solution

It never was like this
Also if it does change, prepare to see MANY complaints about this
So a BIG GIGANTIC NO for me /sorry for caps

I would have to agree that it probably isn't all too necessary, seeing as:

Riince wrote:

S has never meant FC

The 99% combo might work, and I wouldn't have TOO much of an issue if it were implemented *grumble grumble*, but:

baraatje123 wrote:

prepare to see MANY complaints about this

I think it is really too late to be changing such significant things in the rankings, so many ranks are going to be affected and I don't think that changing it is going to be worth it, it just isn't necessary enough to warrant the change imo....

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It is a significant change
I think millions or even billions of (unranked) scores will get changed then
That's not significant?

baraatje123 wrote:

It is a significant change
I think millions or even billions of (unranked) scores will get changed then
That's not significant?

^ This is what I was referring to by "significant"

>billions
uhm

also yeah, that's the point when you change this kinda stuff, but the fact that it hasnt been done yet doesnt mean it's bad, and denying improvements just because a vocal minority would be upset for a day or two isn't really a good way to go imo
This isn't exactly related to this thread in question anymore, but you need to do something about your midnest about changing stuff that has been the same for a while. Sometimes change is actually for the better, even if the effect would be rathre large.

It's not that I'm opposed to change, it's just that it needs to be done correctly.

So long as there is a well balanced form of leniency when it comes to sliderbreaks ~ esp with mods like HR due to possible high densities, then I don't have too much of an issue with it ~ the 99% seems fine to me and I'd be okay with that. But anything tighter than that and I wouldn't be as keen...

The only point I was raising was the vast number of current ranks that are going to be affected by this change, there will be many people who voice their opinions in both support and controversy and that is inevitable. Especially when there are as many ranks on maps as there are now and I do find that it is a little late to be implementing it as a result ~ that doesn't mean I disapprove of the change though ~ more just the timing of it