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Monitor refresh rate

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Total Posts
30
chox_old
125 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
chox_old
what is refresh rate of your monitor?
mine is 75 hz and today after reinstalling system i had to face 60 hz once again.. that was.. awful
it almost felt like slideshow, like seriously
i'm wondering if there's much difference between 120hz and 75hz? anyone got 120hz monitor here?
because well, difference between 60 and 75 hz for me is so huge that it makes me wonder how 120hz feels *.*
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers
I'm using 120hz and it's amazing!

If you're fine with 60hz, don't even go there. I can't even look at 60hz without getting pissed at the low rate of frames.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
I'm using a CRT (which lets me go to even 180Hz if I drop my resolution low enough), but I play at 90Hz. It gets noticeably smoother the higher I put the refresh rate, but I'd rather play windowed at a normal resolution (and a decent refresh rate) than having a super-insanely-smooth 20" window that I can't completely see unless I move my seat back a lot.
EDIT: Actually, after a bit of testing, I think I'm going to stick to fullscreen letterboxed. 1600x900@100Hz. Playing windowed in Windows 8/8.1 adds a bit of latency that I'm starting to feel the effects of, and I was playing using a 1600x900 window anyway.

I bought this monitor specifically for Taiko, since they don't have the sample-and-hold motion blur effect that LCDs do (120Hz LCDs still have this effect to a much lesser degree unless you use the 2D LightBoost feature). Who needs a 120Hz LCD when can spend a fraction of the cost and get a decent CRT instead (provided that you have the room for one and the patience to calibrate the image) :P
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 3 times in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Real men play on 60Hz. Taiko included.

Or just poor people such as myself.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Just to note...

Motion blurr (sometimes called ghosting) is a limitation of the technology used in LCD's. Some companies rate their monitors for 1ms or 2ms, but this is only grey to grey transition (G2G). Changing the pixel colour between black and certain colour takes much longer, in the region of 8-16ms (Black to White).

Faster LCD's like 120hz and 144hz are known for having "washed out" colours. The reason for that is they don't actually achieve a "full black" or white. They just use some funky system I haven't quite grasped since the pixels can't change their colour fast enough. So you will never have colour depth on high refresh rate monitors like you get on 60hz ones.

The only real thing to take note of is LED backlight. It has phased out the old CCFL backlighting, because CCFL had a lot more motion blurr (because it doesn't turn on and off as fast and has a smoother frequency graph) whereas LED is a lot faster to switch states - graph flatlines on the trough and crest frequencies. So LED is a lot smoother and easier to read text while moving across the screen.

There is something called lightboost though, which is a work around the problem.

Here is an article going into detail about the difference between the different backlights
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama
60 Hz LCD, 4ms response time. It's old but enough for osu anyway.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
I have both 75 Hz, and 60 Hz connected to same PC (where the 75hz one has lower resolution than 60hz one [1280x1024 vs 1920x1080]) and I honestly can't see ANY difference (and I'm sure that they run at different refresh rate, since when using vSync, which synchronizes FPS with refresh rate, osu! shows 75 fps on 75 hz one and vice versa).
Pizzicato
2,739 posts
Joined February 2011
Pizzicato
went up from 60 to 75. and the difference is big. taiko-wise.
Rio-
3,353 posts
Joined March 2013
Rio-


Tried switching to 75 Hz or 120 Hz... But, Laptop Monitor sux! :(
Espionage724
876 posts
Joined August 2011
Espionage724
Read this thread, then swapped out my Acer S201HL (LCD @ 60Hz) with a HP 7500 (CRT @ 85Hz). I've switched from LCD to CRT in the past, but I really don't know why I switched back... Everything seems worlds smoother (I sat here moving a window across my screen for a minute just to admire it), blacks are... black, Taiko is even playable now (had massive ghosting and tearing on my LCD).

Only thing is my max recommended (flicker-free) resolution of 1024x768. But I'm sure I can get used to it...
Darksonic
Global Moderator
2,794 posts
Joined November 2010
Darksonic

lolcubes wrote:

Real men play on 60Hz.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
Alright, so I decided to try out 60Hz on my CRT, and I can easily say that it is MUCH more clear than 75Hz on my LCD. In fact, I can play Taiko on 60Hz just as well as I could at a higher refresh rate, so it'd be usable if it wasn't for the fact that CRTs have flicker that practically lights your eyes on fire if you use a low refresh rate for more than 20 minutes. My monitor (Viewsonic PF815) is just great though. Got it for only $40 a month ago (barely used), and it handles 1600x1200 flicker-free.

Espionage724 wrote:

Only thing is my max recommended (flicker-free) resolution of 1024x768. But I'm sure I can get used to it...
This is probably the reason why most people still seem to think that CRTs are worse than LCDs image-wise. Consumer-level LCDs are more usable to the average person than consumer-level CRTs because of this. But the higher-end CRTs are up to par with, if not beyond the image quality of high-end LCD monitors (especially the "holy grail" of CRTs: the 24" widescreen Sony FW900, which still sells for hundreds online). Not just in motion clarity, but also in color accuracy.

Anyways, I'd suggest hooking up your LCD beside your CRT if you have the room and connections for it. 1024x768 doesn't provide enough screen real estate IMO.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers
Took a couple of pictures with my phone.

60hz

120hz
bn3o
19 posts
Joined February 2013
bn3o
.
Last edited by bn3o , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Behold, friends!

The 60Hz awesomeness.

SPOILER
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
^Pictures! That's a smart idea. Let me get out my DSLR.

60Hz LCD
75Hz LCD
(no 120Hz shot since I'm too cheap for a 120Hz LCD monitor)

note: the dark parts of the CRT shots are invisible to the human eye, the shots were taken mid-refresh.
the CRT at 60Hz does show visible eyestrain-inducing flicker though.
you should still be able to see the lack of ghosting despite my bad camera focus
90Hz CRT
180Hz CRT
60Hz CRT
60Hz CRT shot 2
I took all of the shots at 1/500 sec exposure, f/3.5 (or f/4 for some shots), ISO 1600 using a Canon EOS Rebel T4i, at the first fast part of The Quick Brown Fox - HIT AND RUN IN 1920 A.D. [Inner Oni].

Here's a link to the raw photos, if anyone's interested.

EDIT: I just realized, I have my monitors close enough to quickly take a side-by-side image:
75Hz LCD vs 90Hz CRT
raw image
Same settings as the other shots. Although the camera's unfocused on the LCD, you can still see the ghosting. I can move the monitors even closer together and take more shots if anyone wants.


EDIT2: And some more shots, because taking pictures is fun :P
MuryokuP - Catastrophe [Haruka's Oni], DoubleTime
60Hz CRT
75Hz LCD
Mayoi Hachikuji
179 posts
Joined November 2012
Mayoi Hachikuji
So thats why i can't read Taiko!! :D
Or maybe its my 31 playcount...
Asagi Mutsuki
osu!trivium Champion
1,469 posts
Joined February 2013
Asagi Mutsuki

lolcubes wrote:

Real men play on 60Hz. Taiko included.

Or just poor people such as myself.
Me too orz

Mayoi Hachikuji wrote:

So thats why i can't read Taiko!! :D
Or maybe its my 31 playcount...
lololol
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

kriers wrote:

120hz
What monitor do you have?
Does your monitor support lightboost or similar (samsung 3D)?
Or is that your phone doing that...
strikeR
57 posts
Joined January 2013
strikeR

YayMii wrote:

^Pictures! That's a smart idea. Let me get out my DSLR.

60Hz LCD
75Hz LCD
(no 120Hz shot since I'm too cheap for a 120Hz LCD monitor)

note: the dark parts of the CRT shots are invisible to the human eye, the shots were taken mid-refresh.
the CRT at 60Hz does show visible eyestrain-inducing flicker though.
you should still be able to see the lack of ghosting despite my bad camera focus
90Hz CRT
180Hz CRT
60Hz CRT
60Hz CRT shot 2
I took all of the shots at 1/500 sec exposure, f/3.5 (or f/4 for some shots), ISO 1600 using a Canon EOS Rebel T4i, at the first fast part of The Quick Brown Fox - HIT AND RUN IN 1920 A.D. [Inner Oni].

Here's a link to the raw photos, if anyone's interested.

EDIT: I just realized, I have my monitors close enough to quickly take a side-by-side image:
75Hz LCD vs 90Hz CRT
raw image
Same settings as the other shots. Although the camera's unfocused on the LCD, you can still see the ghosting. I can move the monitors even closer together and take more shots if anyone wants.


EDIT2: And some more shots, because taking pictures is fun :P
MuryokuP - Catastrophe [Haruka's Oni], DoubleTime
60Hz CRT
75Hz LCD
all crt monitors go like that? also do you know if they still sell monitors like yours?
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West

lolcubes wrote:

Real men play on 60Hz. Taiko included.

Or just poor people such as myself.
QFT. Anything higher is cheating 8-)
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

RaneFire wrote:

kriers wrote:

120hz
What monitor do you have?
Does your monitor support lightboost or similar (samsung 3D)?
Or is that your phone doing that...
It's 2x60hz meant for 3D, yes. It's a part of my mx17 customized setup. Not many laptops have 120hz after all.
enik
276 posts
Joined December 2011
enik
So CRT is the way to go? Since we're at it, can you post some good price/quality options? For lazy people like me who don't have enough patience to read all this technical stuff :oops:
Espionage724
876 posts
Joined August 2011
Espionage724

enik wrote:

So CRT is the way to go? Since we're at it, can you post some good price/quality options? For lazy people like me who don't have enough patience to read all this technical stuff :oops:
There's more to it than this, but generally speaking, if you don't mind a 4:3 resolution, and have the deskspace for a CRT monitor, and don't care about energy efficiency, I'd say CRTs are the way to go :)

When choosing a monitor, I'd verify that it can go above 60Hz (most can without issue), and even better, if it has a recommended flicker-free resolution/Hz (mine is 1024x768@85Hz; I'm almost certain this is common for most lower-end CRTs, and is fine).

The small amount of looking I did yesterday leads me to believe you can pick up a decent CRT monitor for as low as $50, but you could probably snag one even cheaper locally via garage sales or something.
enik
276 posts
Joined December 2011
enik

Espionage724 wrote:

enik wrote:

So CRT is the way to go? Since we're at it, can you post some good price/quality options? For lazy people like me who don't have enough patience to read all this technical stuff :oops:
There's more to it than this, but generally speaking, if you don't mind a 4:3 resolution, and have the deskspace for a CRT monitor, and don't care about energy efficiency, I'd say CRTs are the way to go :)

When choosing a monitor, I'd verify that it can go above 60Hz (most can without issue), and even better, if it has a recommended flicker-free resolution/Hz (mine is 1024x768@85Hz; I'm almost certain this is common for most lower-end CRTs, and is fine).

The small amount of looking I did yesterday leads me to believe you can pick up a decent CRT monitor for as low as $50, but you could probably snag one even cheaper locally via garage sales or something.
Thanks, one more question: how does different refresh rate affect your eyes? The higher is this value, the better for eyes?

YayMii wrote:

CRTs have flicker that practically lights your eyes on fire if you use a low refresh rate
Does it happen only on low refresh rates or each CRT is different? I mean, I already found a working 17" 160hz CRT for 3$ (lol) but I'm not sure if it's any good.
(LG Flatron ez T710BH)
EDIT: Any recommended resolution is meant to be flicker-free or is like an advanced option?
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

enik wrote:

YayMii wrote:

CRTs have flicker that practically lights your eyes on fire if you use a low refresh rate
Does it happen only on low refresh rates or each CRT is different? I mean, I already found a working 17" 160hz CRT for 3$ (lol) but I'm not sure if it's any good.
(LG Flatron ez T710BH)
EDIT: Any recommended resolution is meant to be flicker-free or is like an advanced option?
It happens anyway. It's a... "feature..." of CRT's.

In LCD's pixels change colour and remain so until told to change. The backlight illuminates the colour producing the image.

In CRT's the image is drawn from top to bottom by electron guns, projected onto the back of a phosphor-coated screen, and only lasts as long as the type of phosphor used is able to maintain a glow. The drawing action is also why there is perceived frame tearing, very detectable on video camera which capture frames. But that's not how our eyes work, fortunately. Speaking of which, it is not practical to record a live play of you playing while using a CRT.

"Flicker-free" just means that the refresh rate is high enough to prevent the phosphors losing their glow before the next image is drawn. Using low persistence phosphors reduces motion blurr, and on most CRT's the blurr is not even perceivable. So that's all flicker-free means, the image is refreshed fast enough so that the phosphors remain illuminated and your eyes can't tell the difference. Find the highest resolution (refresh rate goes down as the resolution goes up), you can use without getting flicker.

160hz sounds good, but that's probably at its lowest resolution only.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
"Flicker-free" depends on the person. I can see flickering up to 120Hz (both my dad's 100Hz TV and my 120Hz screen I don't use anymore), so it's not an accurate benchmark. Higher is better though, but as it was mentioned before, any comfortable refresh rate yields a really low resolution, and that's kinda ehhhhhhhh.

Also, CRTs are very hard on the eyes, try sitting in front of one for hours and your eyes will really be on fire lol.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

enik wrote:

YayMii wrote:

CRTs have flicker that practically lights your eyes on fire if you use a low refresh rate
Does it happen only on low refresh rates or each CRT is different? I mean, I already found a working 17" 160hz CRT for 3$ (lol) but I'm not sure if it's any good.
(LG Flatron ez T710BH)
EDIT: Any recommended resolution is meant to be flicker-free or is like an advanced option?
The flicker is only visible to the human eye (and thus only causes eyestrain) at low refresh rates. I've heard somewhere that 72Hz is the bare minimum that you'd use if you want to avoid eyestrain, but everyone's eyes are different so I'd suggest using least 85Hz. A higher refresh rate would lessen the risk of harming your eyes.

The recommended resolution varies depending on the monitor. It's a specification from the manufacturer, and states the highest preset resolution that can handle a flicker-free refresh rate. Usually they'd state this in the user manual, but you usually don't get that with a used monitor, so you'd have to do a little bit of hunting to find a PDF of it online.

I looked up that monitor for you (here's the manual), the recommended resolutions are 1024x768@85Hz and 1280x1024@75Hz (I have no idea why that one's recommended, since it's a different aspect ratio. Might as well use 1280x960). Also, it can handle a max horizontal frequency of 85kHz (if you make a custom resolution to get higher refresh rates, you want to make sure the horizontal frequency of the resolution doesn't pass 85kHz to prevent it from killing your monitor). And if you use custom resolutions, you might need to use a program like RefreshLock to make sure that your game's using the higher refresh rate.

If my calculations are right, that monitor should be able to just barely handle 1280x960@85Hz using the CVT timing mode setting. It will only be able to handle 160Hz at 640x480, but it should also be able to handle 800x600@120Hz and 1024x768@100Hz. You'll have to use custom resolutions to set these though.

lolcubes wrote:

Also, CRTs are very hard on the eyes, try sitting in front of one for hours and your eyes will really be on fire lol.
It really depends on the person. Most people can't perceive flickering at 85Hz. Personally, I sat in front of my CRT for probably at least 6 hours last night (unhealthy, I know) and my eyes feel fine.
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I used to sit 6~8 hours in front of my Samsung 755DFX which had 1024x768 @100Hz and 800x600 @120Hz, and both were really painful for me after excessive use. :p
SjokoladeBolla
12 posts
Joined March 2012
SjokoladeBolla
I've never noticed any difference from 60 to 75hz. Have been using 120hz for a long time now, but the first time i changed from 60hz i was fucking mindblown.
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