Problem with low ARs is that the game requires you to play high ARs in order to be good.
DT makes AR go higher.
HR makes AR go higher.
DT makes AR go higher.
HR makes AR go higher.
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osu! World Cup 2013 - Discussion Thread
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Most players add DT or HR to improve their skills. When they see them selves getting faster, reading notes more quickly and with a faster reaction, it gets more fun. I remember when I started osu! I use to go and play multiplayer and when higher rank players chose a higher ar map, I was like to my self "how da fuq can they do this" And then you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of fast pace. Many players on osu! suffer when they come back to play low ar, after them playing high ar maps for months etc...So they will develop lots of hate towards low ar and such. Some players avoid playing high ar and end up actually playing maps with high bpm on low ar with ease, while players who play at higher ar, can not... So, it's up to the players choice on how he/she progresses through osu!Wishy wrote:
Problem with low ARs is that the game requires you to play high ARs in order to be good.
DT makes AR go higher.
HR makes AR go higher.
No, we are not talking about combo here, look at objects, i got 1xMiss, but if i hit slider i get 1x300. So there is still 1 object missing.Sakisan wrote:
He must have missed a slider that's worth 2 combo (simple start + end, no ticks or return-arrow)Vmx wrote:
Then this, look at LoGo's score he has 1miss 0x100, if you count every players score 100s 300s 50s they have 757 objects and LoGo had 756. ?_? The map had 757 obejcts so where did 1 LoGo's object go?
And why do people talk about which kind of people shouldn't be in owc and stuff.
I shouldn't be in owc but I am, deal with it.
I think all the maps are very fun, but Kert is right : they all have pretty much the same kind of difficulty. There are a lot of styles that could benefit the lower 16 teams. Not saying it would have kicked out some upper 16 teams, but it would give them something to work with. Now we're just awaiting the execution date
It is just as fun, for example, when I watch MillhioreF play EZ on some map with like 1 million objects on the screen at the same time and hitting them all. This kind of play also gets a reaction like "How the fk can he do this?" And you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of pace. You see? Your argument can be applied in this situation too. The problem is, like Wishy said, that the game pretty much requires you to play high AR... No respect for low AR at all!Luffy-Kun wrote:
Most players add DT or HR to improve their skills. When they see them selves getting faster, reading notes more quickly and with a faster reaction, it gets more fun. I remember when I started osu! I use to go and play multiplayer and when higher rank players chose a higher ar map, I was like to my self "how da fuq can they do this" And then you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of fast pace.
Soarezi
Yes, exactly.Soarezi wrote:
So because most prefer more fast paced over slow paced makes you want to puke and quit the game? alright
Soarezi
haha AmaiHachimitsu your posts make no sense at all 
and why is everybody comparing this with a race. if anything, you guys are playing fucking nascar. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left.
and why is everybody comparing this with a race. if anything, you guys are playing fucking nascar. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left.
I would love to see ivaltek on the mappool XDAqo wrote:
I love Ivaltek please dosilmarilen wrote:
to all the ar9 haters: i hope they pick a nice jumpy ar8 map is one of the future rounds, like ivaltek or something
There hasn't even been a part which coul'dve made sense in them, so commenting on them for not making any sense while they aren't even capable of containing the slightest bit of sense is quite funny as wellSoarezi wrote:
fix'dGladiOol wrote:
haha GladiOol your posts make no sense at all
Soarezi
GladiOol wrote:
haha AmaiHachimitsu your posts make no sense at all
driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left. driving fast and going left.
i believe mappers use ar to control the amount of visible objects on the field, a slow map with a high ar is going to look bad because there aren't as many objects visually appearing at the same time and also gives the vibe that the map is fast.
a fast map with a low ar is going to look bad because there are too many objects visually appearing at the same time and so it confuses the player into thinking the map has a slow rhythm/flow, and also looks very clustered/messy.
You won't see many low ar maps in the map pool simply because a good mapper will always pick the ar that makes their map looks best in. ar10 is generally used for maps that have high flow speeds i.e. image -material-, big black whereas ar9 is "not too fast" but also "not too slow" for moderate/high bpm maps. maps that are ar8 and below tend to be maps that are easily dt-able; the map is going to be at a relatively low bpm ~160 with pretty low spacing and sv which doesn't meet the difficulty requirements to be an owc map (unless in dt bracket), or maps that have a very low amount of hit objects.
Personally i don't enjoy hitting a circle and then looking at my background waiting for the next one to pop up, but i also don't like to focus on so many objects appearing at once creating confusion, and my playfield looking incredibly messy too.
tl;dr version: mappers pick ar depending on the speed of the flow of the map, and to not make their map look empty or clustered which is why not many ar8 and below maps are picked because they are generally easy and do not meet difficulty requirements
a fast map with a low ar is going to look bad because there are too many objects visually appearing at the same time and so it confuses the player into thinking the map has a slow rhythm/flow, and also looks very clustered/messy.
You won't see many low ar maps in the map pool simply because a good mapper will always pick the ar that makes their map looks best in. ar10 is generally used for maps that have high flow speeds i.e. image -material-, big black whereas ar9 is "not too fast" but also "not too slow" for moderate/high bpm maps. maps that are ar8 and below tend to be maps that are easily dt-able; the map is going to be at a relatively low bpm ~160 with pretty low spacing and sv which doesn't meet the difficulty requirements to be an owc map (unless in dt bracket), or maps that have a very low amount of hit objects.
Personally i don't enjoy hitting a circle and then looking at my background waiting for the next one to pop up, but i also don't like to focus on so many objects appearing at once creating confusion, and my playfield looking incredibly messy too.
tl;dr version: mappers pick ar depending on the speed of the flow of the map, and to not make their map look empty or clustered which is why not many ar8 and below maps are picked because they are generally easy and do not meet difficulty requirements
It looking awesome does not equate to fun.Artaxerx wrote:
It is just as fun, for example, when I watch MillhioreF play EZ on some map with like 1 million objects on the screen at the same time and hitting them all. This kind of play also gets a reaction like "How the fk can he do this?" And you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of pace. You see? Your argument can be applied in this situation too. The problem is, like Wishy said, that the game pretty much requires you to play high AR... No respect for low AR at all!Luffy-Kun wrote:
Most players add DT or HR to improve their skills. When they see them selves getting faster, reading notes more quickly and with a faster reaction, it gets more fun. I remember when I started osu! I use to go and play multiplayer and when higher rank players chose a higher ar map, I was like to my self "how da fuq can they do this" And then you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of fast pace.
As I said before " it's up to the players choice on how he/she progresses through osu!" Every player is different. Some people might like to be able to be more professional at low ar with high bpm and some would want to be professional at high bpm with higher ar. Although, you say "No respect for low AR at all!" Is because most players on osu! end up playing higher ar later on (Cause lower ar gets boring for them) so you won't see much players defending low ar... Although, I respect both of them.Artaxerx wrote:
It is just as fun, for example, when I watch MillhioreF play EZ on some map with like 1 million objects on the screen at the same time and hitting them all. This kind of play also gets a reaction like "How the fk can he do this?" And you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of pace. You see? Your argument can be applied in this situation too. The problem is, like Wishy said, that the game pretty much requires you to play high AR... No respect for low AR at all!Luffy-Kun wrote:
Most players add DT or HR to improve their skills. When they see them selves getting faster, reading notes more quickly and with a faster reaction, it gets more fun. I remember when I started osu! I use to go and play multiplayer and when higher rank players chose a higher ar map, I was like to my self "how da fuq can they do this" And then you just want to be able to read and play at that kind of fast pace.
Well, my main gripe with the mappool is the lack of variation really. The mappool strongly favors one type of player over another. We're also playing all 3 group stage matches with this mappool afaik, so there's even less variation than last year on that aspect.
I thought we introduced group stages in the first place so that all countries participating would atleast play and enjoy 3 matches? Now, I'm not trying to claim that some countries can't play these maps or anything, but a varied pool would give higher chances for low-tier players to pick maps strategically. Well actually that goes for all teams.
I mean, right now I don't even need to pick a map. I can just hit f2 and play whatever map I get since they're basically the same thing.
I thought we introduced group stages in the first place so that all countries participating would atleast play and enjoy 3 matches? Now, I'm not trying to claim that some countries can't play these maps or anything, but a varied pool would give higher chances for low-tier players to pick maps strategically. Well actually that goes for all teams.
I mean, right now I don't even need to pick a map. I can just hit f2 and play whatever map I get since they're basically the same thing.
Ilye_old
Focusing on low ar just because OWC will require this is pointless. If you want to rank high you need to play with high ar, if you play with high ar you simply will suck at <ar9. So what is the point to force top players, who play mainly ar10 or higher to play something what is not connected with advancing in ranking? Low AR may be fun, but osu is all about improving speed and fast sightreading, you need to deal with that. If you not consider high rank players as the best in the world then who is best? If osu counted EZ mode as a multiplier like HR (x1,06) playing low ar would be ok, but its's not. As I said earlier, improving unnecessary skill is meaningless when it's only for OWC's purpose.
You can create tournament for low ar players, but don't confuse World Cup with it.
@edit
I'm not saying low ar players are worse than high ar, but considering every similliar aspect will lead to CS1 fans etc. playing with low ar is not being awarded in game so shouldn't be at owc as well.
You can create tournament for low ar players, but don't confuse World Cup with it.
@edit
I'm not saying low ar players are worse than high ar, but considering every similliar aspect will lead to CS1 fans etc. playing with low ar is not being awarded in game so shouldn't be at owc as well.
Ladies and gentlemen, the mindset of new single-minded players who only care about speed. I'm not going to question you, but there are many players who are considered top players who can't play AR10.3 insanes.[-Aoi-] wrote:
Focusing on low ar just because OWC will require this is pointless. If you want to rank high you need to play with high ar, if you play with high ar you simply will suck at <ar9. So what is the point to force top players, who play mainly ar10 or higher to play something what is not connected with advancing in ranking? Low AR may be fun, but osu is all about improving speed and fast sightreading, you need to deal with that. If you not consider high rank players as the best in the world then who is best? If osu counted EZ mode as a multiplier like HR (x1,06) playing low ar would be ok, but its's not. As I said earlier, improving unnecessary skill is meaningless when it's only for OWC's purpose.
You can create tournament for low ar players, but don't confuse World Cup with it.
I'd rather watch people consistently playing somewhat difficult maps more than getting fucked over by round 1 maps that are harder than finals maps from last year.
specifically what type of player is it favouring?CXu wrote:
Well, my main gripe with the mappool is the lack of variation really. The mappool strongly favors one type of player over another. We're also playing all 3 group stage matches with this mappool afaik, so there's even less variation than last year on that aspect.
I thought we introduced group stages in the first place so that all countries participating would atleast play and enjoy 3 matches? Now, I'm not trying to claim that some countries can't play these maps or anything, but a varied pool would give higher chances for low-tier players to pick maps strategically. Well actually that goes for all teams.
I mean, right now I don't even need to pick a map. I can just hit f2 and play whatever map I get since they're basically the same thing.
i am sure anybody that could play hr consistently and well can play ar10.3Almost wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the mindset of new single-minded players who only care about speed. I'm not going to question you, but there are many players who are considered top players who can't play AR10.3 insanes.[-Aoi-] wrote:
Focusing on low ar just because OWC will require this is pointless. If you want to rank high you need to play with high ar, if you play with high ar you simply will suck at <ar9. So what is the point to force top players, who play mainly ar10 or higher to play something what is not connected with advancing in ranking? Low AR may be fun, but osu is all about improving speed and fast sightreading, you need to deal with that. If you not consider high rank players as the best in the world then who is best? If osu counted EZ mode as a multiplier like HR (x1,06) playing low ar would be ok, but its's not. As I said earlier, improving unnecessary skill is meaningless when it's only for OWC's purpose.
You can create tournament for low ar players, but don't confuse World Cup with it.
Ilye_old
Im just saying that for example someone who play with HR getting 95% have higher score than someone who SS same map without mods. If game is built that way you can't consider AR7 or even 3 players better than AR10+ players, it doesn't mean AR3 is easier than AR10, but if u want to consider ability to play low ar as a additional indicator of being pro, change score system.Almost wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the mindset of new single-minded players who only care about speed. I'm not going to question you, but there are many players who are considered top players who can't play AR10.3 insanes.
People consider me a kinda good player and i cant do AR10.3 lol
Even Cookiezi said AR9 is annoying, deal with it 8)
All maps are AR9-AR10buny wrote:
specifically what type of player is it favouring?CXu wrote:
Well, my main gripe with the mappool is the lack of variation really. The mappool strongly favors one type of player over another. We're also playing all 3 group stage matches with this mappool afaik, so there's even less variation than last year on that aspect.
I thought we introduced group stages in the first place so that all countries participating would atleast play and enjoy 3 matches? Now, I'm not trying to claim that some countries can't play these maps or anything, but a varied pool would give higher chances for low-tier players to pick maps strategically. Well actually that goes for all teams.
I mean, right now I don't even need to pick a map. I can just hit f2 and play whatever map I get since they're basically the same thing.
The BPM range is 170~200bpm (except the DT maps)
Most of the maps focus on midsize jumps (about 1/4 to 1/2 of the screen) and shorter 3~7 note streams.
I'm not saying all the maps are similar, but I'd like more variety than this, especially since these maps are going to be used for 3 matches, and not 1.
Well, it's not like this'll change anything, but yeah.
Soarezi
@CXu: I'd only complain about the jump-stream variety. There are only 2 purely streamy maps in the entire pool - Seijin no Tou and Bird Sprite, from which the second is most likely not to be picked anyways since it's Hidden. Everyone knows jumping is not the only skill required in this game, I'd like to see some high BPM streamy maps in the next stages as well.
and what does that have to do with anything? he also said 180 bpm streams are too slow, so by that logic bird sprite is boring and i dont understand why it would be picked as an owc mapfartownik wrote:
Even Cookiezi said AR9 is annoying, deal with it 8)
The thing is, if OWC only had AR10+ maps, then the pro players who struggle with high AR would have problems competing. And OWC has map selection as a strategy so that pro players of all specialties can compete against each other.[-Aoi-] wrote:
Im just saying that for example someone who play with HR getting 95% have higher score than someone who SS same map without mods. If game is built that way you can't consider AR7 or even 3 players better than AR10+ players, it doesn't mean AR3 is easier than AR10, but if u want to consider ability to play low ar as a additional indicator of being pro, change score system.Almost wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the mindset of new single-minded players who only care about speed. I'm not going to question you, but there are many players who are considered top players who can't play AR10.3 insanes.
OWC has map selection as a strategy so that pro players of all specialties can compete against each other.But current OWC don't have that.
This rule make it even worse :
Selection out of mod-specific brackets is limited. Each captain may only select one map from each mod-restricted bracket during the match.
I was obviously joking.silmarilen wrote:
and what does that have to do with anything? he also said 180 bpm streams are too slow, so by that logic bird sprite is boring and i dont understand why it would be picked as an owc mapfartownik wrote:
Even Cookiezi said AR9 is annoying, deal with it 8)
But it's something when the best player of the game ever says something like that, right?
Ilye_old
There is no way to create mappol accepted by all community, but selectors can make some categories like fast streams map, low ar map, high ar map, jumpy map or fast singles map and find 1-2 maps for each of them. I dont think this will solve the problem, but most of the participants will get their favourite type of map. Just an idea for the future
Considering the standard point of view in 2013, it's hard to get the joke.fartownik wrote:
I was obviously joking.
But it's something when the best player of the game ever says something like that, right?
Let's all be elitist AR10 players.
Ladies and gentlemen, the mindset of new single-minded players who only care about speed. I'm not going to question you, but there are many players who are considered top players who can't play AR10.3 insanes.2 years ago people also cared about speed, but they had few good maps to play as to go beyond this AR10 limit. Now those "modern" players cannot help about being unable to accept low ar since even 140 bpm Insanes are now AR9 and it's a common occurence. Hello Frostmourne
Do whatever you want with this AR, I can't wait till I see Marisa in semifinals. But you should remember that though reading is very important, what should be really measured is the ability to aim at circles and click the circles, this is basically what this game is all about.
"He can play bpm from 120 to 240 with <100 unstable rate, he can easily reach all the jumps and aim the streams. But he needs AR 9 or higher to do it, he sucks balls at this rhythm game" - This is how I imagine some of you thinking.
This says it all. Just shut up and play lol.[-Aoi-] wrote:
There is no way to create mappol accepted by all community
sup'AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Hello Frostmourne
This I agree with.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
2 years ago people also cared about speed, but they had few good maps to play as to go beyond this AR10 limit. Now those "modern" players cannot help about being unable to accept low ar since even 140 bpm Insanes are now AR9 and it's a common occurence.
...
I'm crying. ;w;
Yeah, reading shouldn't be measured at all. I should have to know when to click and where to click just by reaction because anything below AR10 is super scary.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Do whatever you want with this AR, I can't wait till I see Marisa in semifinals. But you should remember that though reading is very important, what should be really measured is the ability to aim at circles and click the circles, this is basically what this game is all about.
Sucks to suck, if that player can't read a lower AR he should learn to play.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
"He can play bpm from 120 to 240 with <100 unstable rate, he can easily reach all the jumps and aim the streams. But he needs AR 9 or higher to do it, he sucks balls at this rhythm game" - This is how I imagine some of you thinking.
I thought people would never expect to have some CS 5 jumpy map or some AR 8 on the pool, but weeeell, I guess I'll consider what you guys are saying. Also, from my point of wiew the pool has enough variety, since we aimed to pick some fast but jumpy maps at the same time, it's not like all the maps are the same since as I said before, we have fasters and slowers, harders and easiers, maybe some with more streams than jumps, maybe some with more jumps than streams, we wouldn't like to pick 23 identical maps. I guess most of you guys have a different concept about "variety", I mean, this kind of maps + AR 9 ones would be the more fitty ones for the first round, since the first one is to test what people can do at these "Normal but hard enough" maps. And let's be honest, AR 8 jumpy maps will result in a deep hate from many players, plus I don't think most players could fc them at their match, since I'm sure most players aren't really used at AR 8, but as I said before, if most of you guys here want even more variety than the one we have now, okay then, I'll consider it.
I'm pretty sure the real thing will start during KO Stage. I mean maps. I don't know well the pickers but since they're top-players they won't screw up.
Maybe not "at all", but reading shouldn't be essential. Just reading the streams and patterns takes enough effort (whatever the AR is), why making it "troll"? I can't find another adjective which suits it better. In a game when one miss might change the whole outcome Low-ar maps will make the reading the most important thing. Is it really ok?
Somebody still doesn't get it. I'm not low-ar hater or high-ar idol. I'm just justifying the voices against since they are flamed heavily and I can see posts implying that those who are against low ar are just bad. IMHO AR <10 is not "scary" for anyone here, but most of us is used to higher AR because of modern mapping. I think I've said it earlier, low ar is a matter of being used to, like mouse sensitivity/tablet area.
We have no choice but to accept the picks, right? I'll do so even if I don't think it's appropriate. Just please don't flame players who couldn't have the pleasure to play in 2009. How about bringing this futile discussion to the end? (I know I started it to some extent).
Yeah, reading shouldn't be measured at all. I should have to know when to click and where to click just by reaction because anything below AR10 is super scary.Though your post was sarcastic, I will please you with a serious answer
Maybe not "at all", but reading shouldn't be essential. Just reading the streams and patterns takes enough effort (whatever the AR is), why making it "troll"? I can't find another adjective which suits it better. In a game when one miss might change the whole outcome Low-ar maps will make the reading the most important thing. Is it really ok?
Somebody still doesn't get it. I'm not low-ar hater or high-ar idol. I'm just justifying the voices against since they are flamed heavily and I can see posts implying that those who are against low ar are just bad. IMHO AR <10 is not "scary" for anyone here, but most of us is used to higher AR because of modern mapping. I think I've said it earlier, low ar is a matter of being used to, like mouse sensitivity/tablet area.
We have no choice but to accept the picks, right? I'll do so even if I don't think it's appropriate. Just please don't flame players who couldn't have the pleasure to play in 2009. How about bringing this futile discussion to the end? (I know I started it to some extent).
players can train AR8 maps they can't read for a week so at the very least they don't have to worry about not seeing overlaps and such, so I wouldn't call that trolling in any way