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[Rule Change] Manipulating slider speeds with anchors

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Kodora
Kodora
I'm very against sliders like this because in most of cases "wiggle" parts have unreadable speed, and it just very uncomfortable to aim (yes, sometimes it can be done in a way where just impossible to read speed of wiggle part) . Maybe just my opinion, but it estetically looks bad, and for case of this map, wiggle parts even done a bit off the music.

there are actually a lot of of sliders like this

However, current rule isn't clean. Sometimes using "wiggle" parts to emphazire specified part of music may works fine (as long as it not affects speed of slider too much - Charles already give good example). I personally don't think that this rule should be changed, but let's see what people will say.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
tiper
tiper

popner wrote:

It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.
Here we go. Exactly the thing I wanted to write in this thread. The problem is that you obviously can concretize the rule, but that is the best way to kill this kind of sliders which may be either good or bad. There're a lot of experienced BATs who can judge these silders on a case-by-case basis.
Zero__wind
osu! Alumni
3,314 posts
Joined August 2012
Zero__wind
It should be judged accordingly
Forbidding this kind of slider usage with unbreakable rules can only kill creativity and enthusiasm of mappers
Describing this in the guideline may be the compromise
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun
In agreement with the few people above me -- how about changing the rule into judging this into a case-by-case basis rather than a hard lined "no"?

Scorpiour gets it head on,

Scorpiour wrote:

The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
The rules shouldn't be black and white, but a colorful book that's open to interpretation when needed.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
This slider method shouldn't be abused, that's all. Simple and easy. Unlike Hold Sliders this method to make a Slider has place for many cases.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
The hate against wigglies has always been dumb. As long as it isn't a hold slider, it should be allowed.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

those wrote:

As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.
I was answering to your argument about being able to read the slider properly, you are the one who got into that area, are you saying your argument nullifies itself?

Just leave it be, if you don't like some specific map using this go and cry about it on each thread, the idea itself works and plays good.
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
This is shit and should never be allowed.

Ephemeral asks for substantiation:
This is shit. It is utter shit. It is game breaking mechanics. It is shit and should not be allowed. I'm happy to modify osu! code to disallow this shit.

everything i just said is less shit than making sliders using this shit. that's how shit this shit really is.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Don't rank this shit. If anything with shit like this is ranked, PM me so I can unrank it.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
well, i think that adequately covers all avenue of possible discourse on the situation.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why is it shit? What says change slider velocity mid slider is always a bad thing? It just limits mapper freedom by not allowing it on the basis of subjectivity rather than objectivity. It's hard to say that wigglies reduce map quality. I have never said a map is bad, because it has wigglies in it. Some of the best maps in osu! use wigglies. If you ask me physically reducing the slider velocity the natural way reduces mapping quality. Not only does it make boring slider shapes, it is very hard to tell sudden speed changes. If you see a wiggly you know it's a sudden speed change.

In short:

Wigglies = fun
Lowered slider velocities = no fun and hard to read

I don't understand the hatred towards them. It's like taking this wonderful slider design and then saying we can't use it and have to use this less wonderful and flowing slider design. It would be good if there was a good alternative to it (hold note will not be a solution unless you can move along the playing field).
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 2 times in total.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
i really, really would not argue with the lead developer when they say a mechanic is gamebreaking. pretty sure those wiggle sliders break or severely fuck with parts of cross-gamemode difficulty generation
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I forgot about that. Well you can ignore me if you want on that regard. (Edited it out of my post) But as long as it's not throwing the wiggly message in aimod, it should be allowed right?
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
In my opinion, it very depends on each map. In this case, I think it's very fine, it's at the END of the song, and there 1 1/2 ticks break between this slider and the next one. I don't really think any of you would really have problems with reading it.

Mapping is cool, because of the different things you can try out, so why not fully using it? Okay, you might end up in a combo break, but after all, you've got it and pass it without any further problems.

Just some thoughts about it, I don't wanna argue against anybody.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Go ahead and use this shit, but don't try and get it ranked.
Keep in mind I'm just stating my opinion. A very strong one, but still only my opinion.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28107

o_o?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
There really are a LOT of maps that actually use this and many are on the "best of 201X" compilations, so yeah people like that. x)

Also, breaking the game mechanics is a really common way to get... new cool mechanics. :D
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill
So I'm guessing this means that we can say good night to any val map, best of 2011, a lot of charles maps, as well as a lot of various other maps that use this technique in a way to fit the music.

Goodbye, shaking sliders. You had a good run.

Whoever cares amend the wiki
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Scorpiour wrote:

i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
+1

smartest comment in the entire thread
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Or just don't rank them so that there's no risk of people losing points over them. :P
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8

Ephemeral wrote:

[...] into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria [...]
approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.
Kodora
Kodora

YGOkid8 wrote:

approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.
Thus idea is awesome, but... why do we need approved 2.0 while we can just re-adjust rules to the current approval category?
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..
Itachi_Uchiha
188 posts
Joined December 2011
Itachi_Uchiha
When it comes to that there is a new category with a warning pin - I STRONGLY hope that these diffs will not count to any statistic for example rank
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Irreversible wrote:

But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..
The obvious solution would be to have the mapper reconstruct the slider, in a manner which is much more obvious and... Well, has a bit more motion. It can still be a tight wiggle without looking like a sluggish python trying to swallow a boar.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

D33d wrote:

Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.
When you talk about readability you are talking about skill, that slider which those considers unreadable is readable to me.

This whole thread is just idiotic, pretty much all popular/good maps DO manipulate slider speed with anchors/curves in one way or another, a lot of them don't really have any considerable impact on the way you play them so you don't care/notice it. Any "V" shaped slider (using an anchor) is actually having it's speed manipulated, there is kind of a slow down when you reach the bottom/top part of it and then it accelerates again, yet nobody is talking about those. Wanna guess why's that? It's because you don't have trouble understanding them and feel that they play fine, on the other hand harder to read sliders feel bad because you can not read them/understand them/get them right on the first play without relying on memory.

This whole thread is about an issue that's completely skill related.

Adding a "Free" category where you can get maps ranked without much trouble (aka no stupid rules/guidelines being a problem) + no need of proper diff spread would be awesome.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It's completely the player's fault and not the map's fault if you combo break on such a slider. All sane non-hold slider wigglies are sight-readable.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Soaprman wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
^

Most of my maps would probably fall into that category w
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8
erm, that was what i meant. i was only drawing attention to the already existing approval category.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
So, the fact they were USED A LOT, IN AN EFFECTIVE MANNER, THAT PLAYER LIKE, do not count anything?
Disallowing things because they "generally won't work" is dumb, really, really, dumb.
Especially putting this kind of technique as "approved", since this is ... "kinda" simple to play and, especially IF ADEQUATELY used, it's good.

On sight readability... disregarding and not giving a shit to how is used:
-can't you see the slider would be "kinda" bigger?

On other way that's rankable, and was considered to be rankable in the last years... and the rules was to make sliders that "hold" unusable.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why should we allow a map with one unrankable slider to be in a new category instead of requiring the user to change said slider?
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido
Is it about a single slider with different velocities along it? If yes, then it's clearly a no-no and must be avoided.

But... Some songs - specially Rock'n'Roll ones - have some spetacular Guitar noises for which sliders with a single wiggle in the START are fitting so tight. Newly, if there's no such guitar noises, these kind of sliders are a no-no.

Happily, it NOT depends on player's skill, since everyone is able to learn and do it -- unless the blind ones.

In fact, the rule would be changed in a way it forbids abuses on such things, instead of solely forbiding all and accept nothing like. In general, it would be good if rules would rely on real commonsense instead in simply forbidance as some government used do.

Such rules are complex, thence BATs are needed. If rules was simple, the system itself could implement and enforce them automatically, just like transactions from/to/between Bank accounts.
Last edited by Alarido , edited 2 times in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Well, they are saying that slowing sliders by making it "vibrate" is unrankable.
But "vibrato" use was arleady discussed in past as usable.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
When you make it "vibrate" to such an extreme that you cannot see the clear path of the slider border and/or it changes the speed of the slider drastically is when it is called into question.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi


I know that it's an "higher frequency" vibrato.
But the use of those kind of sliders COMPLETELY depend on the song.
It wasn't deemed as "unrankable" when we made the rule, as the rule was made to prevent hold sliders done with slideranchors and burais-like slider.
And it doesn't have problems when played, depending on the song, so you can at most change/add a guideline to prevent it.
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