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[New][GdeLine] Slider tick must be visible for speed changes

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epocsodielaK
50 posts
Joined March 2012
epocsodielaK
I can't agree more with RLC

As far as I know, few players read slider velocity change by the desity of slider tick, because it's hard to catch

I usually read the slider velocity by colorhaxing and the sliderball, and

- for sliders slow down suddenly, we may misread it at first, but usually they are long enough, so if it's tickrate 1, we have enough time to move cursor back. But for tickrate 2, before we can notice that the slider is of low speed, we get annoying combo break.

- the same situations happens to high speed sliders. In most case, more slider ticks just ruins the flow of the map rather than improve the readablity of the speed change to sliders
Oyatsu
1,909 posts
Joined December 2012
Oyatsu
New combo for every note-changing? :)
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
If you have to rely on a new combo to determine a slider's change in velocity, it's probably mapped wrong, so no that's not a solution.
Kodora
Kodora
did stupid typo so half of post got deleted ;_;

You can never identify speed of next slider just by seeing new combo on it
Last edited by Kodora , edited 5 times in total.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/172193&m=0

< <

actually .. i wanna say, personally i prefer tick rate 2 to 1, but please consider that in some cases the reduced speed slider are used for peaceful part of music which volumn is pretty low, so the hitsound of tick rate 2 may break the sense of music.

in real mapping, i believe there are various way to emphasize the speed change, so it is a "case-by-case issue". That is, i would like to put it in guideline but not rule, and in special cases BAT could let it go.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes. Combospam is some people's way of expressing sudden changes, but it's kind of bogus because it's not immediately clear that a speed change is being expressed.

If a speed change is subtle enough that it doesn't screw up many players, then it's not really a problem in the first place. If it isn't subtle, then there's a good chance that it will and if we go by something like Garven's example, changes in tick density will make speed changes at least remotely easier to anticipate.

Even rules can be broken in special cases, if the song/mapping really call for it, so people could still circumvent this if they have a strong enough case. Even if this isn't agreed on as a tick rule, I'm sure it can be agreed that having sliders of different speed, which look the goddamn same, are stupid. Perhaps that aspect could be incorporated instead?
Kodora
Kodora

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Kodora wrote:

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
Seems rather contrived to me. As elegant as the solution could be, it would also add more visual noise than is really necessary. When the speed changes are carried out well, player shouldn't need extraneous visual cues beyond ticks. To elaborate slightly, it'd be confusing to determine the difference between a speedup and a slowdown at a glance.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I'm pretty indifferent about this. While I get the idea, I also fully agree with RLC about Ticks not being the only thing that can imply a SV change.

Garven wrote:

As an aside, I'd prefer to not have combo colors used just to show a gimmick of the map and have them be a representative of the phrase of the music instead.
But it IS used that way. You can't just deny that by saying you'd rather see it done differently. Usage of combo colours has to fit in some way, but what way that is, is up to the mapper entirely.
Also keep in mind SV changes would not be used randomly but when something in the song, e.g. a new, stronger phrase suggests it. Often enough you would use NCs at such parts anyway. (Not always, of course, but yeah)
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I think his point was more that colour indicators don't show speed changes that well. It is abuse of combo colours as well and is a pretty hamfisted way to deal with a basic problem.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
It seems the general consensus on the matter is that this would be better suited as a guideline. Would people support the current amendment expressed as a guideline rather than a rule in its current form?
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
Yeah, that would work. If the guideline is broken, the mapper would have to get enough players to play it and say the SV change is appropriate and readable in the context of the whole map.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Guideline wrote:

Sliders cannot be visually identical to other sliders on screen when their slider speed is largely different and there aren't slider tick visible if there are no acceptable cues, visual or musical. The acceptability of the cues must be tested by a group of people.
That's more generic as guideline
you can add a list of cues examples at the end, if you want.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
Garven
Sorry, neglected this thread a bit.

I have edited the first post to reflect the general thoughts of the thread to move this to a guideline with an emphasis on having visual cues, be it slider ticks or a change in note density. This will still discourage disproportionate speed changes while preserving several styles of mapping. The main aim is to discourage drastic speed changes, so wording change propositions to reflect that sentiment would be appreciated.

As for individual responses:

SPOILER
pieguy: If you actually bother to substantiate a claim, I'll reply. Otherwise I'll just disregard your post.

epocsodielaK: That defeats the point of sightreadability. You have to be able to read it the first time. You shouldn't have to memorize a map. This translates to poor map design.

The new combo comments have already been replied to, so no need to address that.

Zarerion: Don't gather players - gather modders.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Kodora
Kodora

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Nice & simple, supporting this.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Support, though I wish we could just say "Don't be retarded" and be done with it D:
pw384
2,286 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Good idea, and I think that combo colors are also included
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Not necessarily. New combos mark the start of a new phrase. If you have to use a new combo to show velocity change, you're doing something wrong.
Kodora
Kodora
Just quoting my old post:

Kodora wrote:

You can never identify speed of next slider just by seeing new combo on it
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
Garven
A "change in the music" isn't a cue you can read until you're already on it and is overly broad anyway. The other two I agree with.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Ekaru wrote:

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Support, though I wish we could just say "Don't be retarded" and be done with it D:
Just remember that this is the osu! community. :(

I second Garven's statement about what a "change in the music" actually is. There should be something visual to indicate the change. If you're not sure that the visual cues are obvious enough and that the speed change can't be followed on the fly, then don't use it. Yes, it's that simple and yes, you mappers should discard a feature if it isn't proven to work, instead of becoming attached to them in the name of artistic vision.

Beatmaps are made to translate the abstract (the music) into the literal (a game level which can be read and felt). This applies to every aspect of a beatmap's visuals.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
Slider speed changes should have corresponding prior cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks, and should allow for the speed change to be expected before the slider begins.

I added a bit about expecting the speed change before you land on the slider. I'm reluctant to remove music changes completely because there are definitely times when the music will be able to provide prior warning. For example, many songs will have a build up prior to entering a chorus; as a player, I can definitely use that to anticipate an SV increase once I enter the chorus itself, even in the absence of visual cues.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
As long as you guys are strict about stupid bullshit then I'm fine with this. ^_^
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
Garven
Ekaru, that kind of language isn't helpful at all. Try to be at least a little constructive - explain what you mean. What is bad for you may be great for others. I just wanted to get some wording into the RC so that it will have a little bit a guidance towards fairness when it comes to sudden large slide speed changes, and this is the result. q:

@Kyto: That'll do then. As stated above, I wish there was mention of larger speed changes since that was the original intent of this thread.
RatedNC17
397 posts
Joined May 2010
RatedNC17
I'm not sure that a simple slider tick to show that the sliders speed has changed will be enough indicate that it has. I think a half a second (or a time equivalent to that of a approach circle) outline glow to a slider to indicate it has changed would be more noticeable
Kodora
Kodora

RatedNC17 wrote:

I'm not sure that a simple slider tick to show that the sliders speed has changed will be enough indicate that it has. I think a half a second (or a time equivalent to that of a approach circle) outline glow to a slider to indicate it has changed would be more noticeable
That's why other part of proposed rule is exist:

Kytoxid wrote:

Slider speed changes should have corresponding prior cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density[u], or visible slider ticks, and should allow for the speed change to be expected before the slider begins.
Yes, new slider tick behaviour makes SV changes much harder to read since sliderticks appears just too fast to read them (it especially hurts on very fast maps). Most important thing - SV changes should have corresponding cues to allow people play them properly in first attempt without any problems, without looking in map in editor mode etc.

As i said before, support!
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
Slider speed changes should have corresponding prior cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks, and should allow for the speed change to be expected before the slider begins. Large, unexpected changes in slider velocity damage the readability and playing experience of the map.

Alright, I'm going to bubble the new guideline under this wording. I added a bit at the end to explain why we have this rule.

I'll leave it open to discussion for a few more days; if no one has issues with it, it'll be added to the RC.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
Added to ranking criteria.
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