[New][GdeLine] Slider tick must be visible for speed changes

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D33d
There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes. Combospam is some people's way of expressing sudden changes, but it's kind of bogus because it's not immediately clear that a speed change is being expressed.

If a speed change is subtle enough that it doesn't screw up many players, then it's not really a problem in the first place. If it isn't subtle, then there's a good chance that it will and if we go by something like Garven's example, changes in tick density will make speed changes at least remotely easier to anticipate.

Even rules can be broken in special cases, if the song/mapping really call for it, so people could still circumvent this if they have a strong enough case. Even if this isn't agreed on as a tick rule, I'm sure it can be agreed that having sliders of different speed, which look the goddamn same, are stupid. Perhaps that aspect could be incorporated instead?
Kodora

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
D33d

Kodora wrote:

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
Seems rather contrived to me. As elegant as the solution could be, it would also add more visual noise than is really necessary. When the speed changes are carried out well, player shouldn't need extraneous visual cues beyond ticks. To elaborate slightly, it'd be confusing to determine the difference between a speedup and a slowdown at a glance.
Zare
I'm pretty indifferent about this. While I get the idea, I also fully agree with RLC about Ticks not being the only thing that can imply a SV change.

Garven wrote:

As an aside, I'd prefer to not have combo colors used just to show a gimmick of the map and have them be a representative of the phrase of the music instead.
But it IS used that way. You can't just deny that by saying you'd rather see it done differently. Usage of combo colours has to fit in some way, but what way that is, is up to the mapper entirely.
Also keep in mind SV changes would not be used randomly but when something in the song, e.g. a new, stronger phrase suggests it. Often enough you would use NCs at such parts anyway. (Not always, of course, but yeah)
D33d
I think his point was more that colour indicators don't show speed changes that well. It is abuse of combo colours as well and is a pretty hamfisted way to deal with a basic problem.
Ephemeral
It seems the general consensus on the matter is that this would be better suited as a guideline. Would people support the current amendment expressed as a guideline rather than a rule in its current form?
Zare
Yeah, that would work. If the guideline is broken, the mapper would have to get enough players to play it and say the SV change is appropriate and readable in the context of the whole map.
HakuNoKaemi

Guideline wrote:

Sliders cannot be visually identical to other sliders on screen when their slider speed is largely different and there aren't slider tick visible if there are no acceptable cues, visual or musical. The acceptability of the cues must be tested by a group of people.
That's more generic as guideline
you can add a list of cues examples at the end, if you want.
Topic Starter
Garven
Sorry, neglected this thread a bit.

I have edited the first post to reflect the general thoughts of the thread to move this to a guideline with an emphasis on having visual cues, be it slider ticks or a change in note density. This will still discourage disproportionate speed changes while preserving several styles of mapping. The main aim is to discourage drastic speed changes, so wording change propositions to reflect that sentiment would be appreciated.

As for individual responses:

pieguy: If you actually bother to substantiate a claim, I'll reply. Otherwise I'll just disregard your post.

epocsodielaK: That defeats the point of sightreadability. You have to be able to read it the first time. You shouldn't have to memorize a map. This translates to poor map design.

The new combo comments have already been replied to, so no need to address that.

Zarerion: Don't gather players - gather modders.
Kytoxid
This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Kodora

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Nice & simple, supporting this.
Ekaru

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Support, though I wish we could just say "Don't be retarded" and be done with it D:
pw384

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Good idea, and I think that combo colors are also included
those
Not necessarily. New combos mark the start of a new phrase. If you have to use a new combo to show velocity change, you're doing something wrong.
Kodora
Just quoting my old post:

Kodora wrote:

You can never identify speed of next slider just by seeing new combo on it
Topic Starter
Garven
A "change in the music" isn't a cue you can read until you're already on it and is overly broad anyway. The other two I agree with.
D33d

Ekaru wrote:

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Support, though I wish we could just say "Don't be retarded" and be done with it D:
Just remember that this is the osu! community. :(

I second Garven's statement about what a "change in the music" actually is. There should be something visual to indicate the change. If you're not sure that the visual cues are obvious enough and that the speed change can't be followed on the fly, then don't use it. Yes, it's that simple and yes, you mappers should discard a feature if it isn't proven to work, instead of becoming attached to them in the name of artistic vision.

Beatmaps are made to translate the abstract (the music) into the literal (a game level which can be read and felt). This applies to every aspect of a beatmap's visuals.
Kytoxid
Slider speed changes should have corresponding prior cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks, and should allow for the speed change to be expected before the slider begins.

I added a bit about expecting the speed change before you land on the slider. I'm reluctant to remove music changes completely because there are definitely times when the music will be able to provide prior warning. For example, many songs will have a build up prior to entering a chorus; as a player, I can definitely use that to anticipate an SV increase once I enter the chorus itself, even in the absence of visual cues.
Ekaru
As long as you guys are strict about stupid bullshit then I'm fine with this. ^_^
Topic Starter
Garven
Ekaru, that kind of language isn't helpful at all. Try to be at least a little constructive - explain what you mean. What is bad for you may be great for others. I just wanted to get some wording into the RC so that it will have a little bit a guidance towards fairness when it comes to sudden large slide speed changes, and this is the result. q:

@Kyto: That'll do then. As stated above, I wish there was mention of larger speed changes since that was the original intent of this thread.
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