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[New][GdeLine] Slider tick must be visible for speed changes

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Topic Starter
Garven
Increasing tick rate doesn't mess a map up in most cases as most people actually have the tick rate too low. And if it does mess the map up, the rate is probably at a rate that is not applicable to this particular problem

There's already a guideline that does pretty much nothing regarding sliderspeed changes, thus the need for addressing it with this thread. Turning this into a guideline would be pointless.
pieguyn

Garven wrote:

Increasing tick rate doesn't mess a map up in most cases as most people actually have the tick rate too low. And if it does mess the map up, the rate is probably at a rate that is not applicable to this particular problem
plz not this whole tick rate debate again. = =

There's already a guideline that does pretty much nothing regarding sliderspeed changes, thus the need for addressing it with this thread. Turning this into a guideline would be pointless.
I even disagree with this

for people who aren't sure if their speed change is readable enough, they can go to check the guideline and see the idea of adding a tick to make it absolutely readable. but people who are more experienced don't need a guideline anyway and have their own intentions. putting this as a rule just gets in people's way, while putting this as a guideline brings a lot of benefit to the people who could actually need it
epocsodielaK
I can't agree more with RLC

As far as I know, few players read slider velocity change by the desity of slider tick, because it's hard to catch

I usually read the slider velocity by colorhaxing and the sliderball, and

- for sliders slow down suddenly, we may misread it at first, but usually they are long enough, so if it's tickrate 1, we have enough time to move cursor back. But for tickrate 2, before we can notice that the slider is of low speed, we get annoying combo break.

- the same situations happens to high speed sliders. In most case, more slider ticks just ruins the flow of the map rather than improve the readablity of the speed change to sliders
Oyatsu
New combo for every note-changing? :)
those
If you have to rely on a new combo to determine a slider's change in velocity, it's probably mapped wrong, so no that's not a solution.
Kodora
did stupid typo so half of post got deleted ;_;

You can never identify speed of next slider just by seeing new combo on it
Scorpiour
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/172193&m=0

< <

actually .. i wanna say, personally i prefer tick rate 2 to 1, but please consider that in some cases the reduced speed slider are used for peaceful part of music which volumn is pretty low, so the hitsound of tick rate 2 may break the sense of music.

in real mapping, i believe there are various way to emphasize the speed change, so it is a "case-by-case issue". That is, i would like to put it in guideline but not rule, and in special cases BAT could let it go.
D33d
There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes. Combospam is some people's way of expressing sudden changes, but it's kind of bogus because it's not immediately clear that a speed change is being expressed.

If a speed change is subtle enough that it doesn't screw up many players, then it's not really a problem in the first place. If it isn't subtle, then there's a good chance that it will and if we go by something like Garven's example, changes in tick density will make speed changes at least remotely easier to anticipate.

Even rules can be broken in special cases, if the song/mapping really call for it, so people could still circumvent this if they have a strong enough case. Even if this isn't agreed on as a tick rule, I'm sure it can be agreed that having sliders of different speed, which look the goddamn same, are stupid. Perhaps that aspect could be incorporated instead?
Kodora

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
D33d

Kodora wrote:

D33d wrote:

There should be something in the overall experience to indicate speed changes.
Can also this be a potential solution?
Seems rather contrived to me. As elegant as the solution could be, it would also add more visual noise than is really necessary. When the speed changes are carried out well, player shouldn't need extraneous visual cues beyond ticks. To elaborate slightly, it'd be confusing to determine the difference between a speedup and a slowdown at a glance.
Zare
I'm pretty indifferent about this. While I get the idea, I also fully agree with RLC about Ticks not being the only thing that can imply a SV change.

Garven wrote:

As an aside, I'd prefer to not have combo colors used just to show a gimmick of the map and have them be a representative of the phrase of the music instead.
But it IS used that way. You can't just deny that by saying you'd rather see it done differently. Usage of combo colours has to fit in some way, but what way that is, is up to the mapper entirely.
Also keep in mind SV changes would not be used randomly but when something in the song, e.g. a new, stronger phrase suggests it. Often enough you would use NCs at such parts anyway. (Not always, of course, but yeah)
D33d
I think his point was more that colour indicators don't show speed changes that well. It is abuse of combo colours as well and is a pretty hamfisted way to deal with a basic problem.
Ephemeral
It seems the general consensus on the matter is that this would be better suited as a guideline. Would people support the current amendment expressed as a guideline rather than a rule in its current form?
Zare
Yeah, that would work. If the guideline is broken, the mapper would have to get enough players to play it and say the SV change is appropriate and readable in the context of the whole map.
HakuNoKaemi

Guideline wrote:

Sliders cannot be visually identical to other sliders on screen when their slider speed is largely different and there aren't slider tick visible if there are no acceptable cues, visual or musical. The acceptability of the cues must be tested by a group of people.
That's more generic as guideline
you can add a list of cues examples at the end, if you want.
Topic Starter
Garven
Sorry, neglected this thread a bit.

I have edited the first post to reflect the general thoughts of the thread to move this to a guideline with an emphasis on having visual cues, be it slider ticks or a change in note density. This will still discourage disproportionate speed changes while preserving several styles of mapping. The main aim is to discourage drastic speed changes, so wording change propositions to reflect that sentiment would be appreciated.

As for individual responses:

pieguy: If you actually bother to substantiate a claim, I'll reply. Otherwise I'll just disregard your post.

epocsodielaK: That defeats the point of sightreadability. You have to be able to read it the first time. You shouldn't have to memorize a map. This translates to poor map design.

The new combo comments have already been replied to, so no need to address that.

Zarerion: Don't gather players - gather modders.
Kytoxid
This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Kodora

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Nice & simple, supporting this.
Ekaru

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Support, though I wish we could just say "Don't be retarded" and be done with it D:
pw384

Kytoxid wrote:

This discussion seems to have died rather suddenly.

How about a simpler wording like this?

Slider speed changes should have corresponding cues. These cues may include changes in the music, changes in note density, or visible slider ticks.
Good idea, and I think that combo colors are also included
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